Royal Caribbean Fights Back!

[EBFURR]

Just watched my recording of Greta from last night. It does appear that at least some of the "experts" are doing a little homework in finding out the timeline and witness accounts, etc. before appearing on national TV to offer opinions. I was a bit frustatrated by the fact that these guys were expressing opinions without even a basic knowledge of the night's events.

 

One thing that appears to be clear is that the RCI coverup issue has been pretty much dismissed by anyone with any credibility. There is even no further mention of the alledged cleaning of the room while it was supposed to be sealed. Apparently RCI has done a sufficient job of providing access records to the cabin that the couple that made those public claims has been discredited. The only ones that continue to scream about an intentional coverup are the parents and they have zero credibilty at this point. The tape of them stating as fact that the canopy was being cleaned at 7:30 AM has been widely exposed and that alone makes anything else they say on the matter seem irrelevant.

 

The consensus is that the presence of blood inside the room or on the balcony and the amount, location, & source is the key to determining foul play. Only the Turkish police and FBI know this for sure. I watched the RCI interviews again and they are very careful about this issue. All they are saying is that there was no blood that was readily visible to the naked eye. They are not confirming or denying anything else. If you take all the statements by all parties as a whole, there seems to be an indication that there was some found somewhere. A towel was mentioned in the Opra interview.

 

There has been some criticism of the Turkish investigaton, but this is being done by parties who have no knowledge of what was actually done and turned over to the FBI. For example, one of Greta's experts criticzed the photos of the canopy because there was no ruler in the picture to indicate size and position. Greta did point out that these were NOT the Turkish photos. The ones that are being shown were taken by passengers. The FBI has the police photos and they may be much more informative. There is a lot of information that has not been made public and so to assume that the Turkish police did a shoddy job is speculation, nothing more. The biggest issue is the short timeframe in wich they performed the investigation. They may have gotten plenty of evidence, but there is no doubt that a longer investigation could have probably yielded more. Again, RCI did not hurry them and apparently asked multiple times if they needed anything else.

 

Concluding that a crime was committed is one thing, convicting the criminal(s) is another. IF (big if) the FBI has determined that there was a crime, their focus is on getting enough evidence to convict. The expert opinion is that unless they can get a "flipper" that may be a very tough job. In this scenario they are probably trying to find the least culpable and pressuring them to turn witness on the other(s). This can be done with either a plea down or possibly even immunity.

 

It is interesting to watch as the TV experts are slowing coming around and expressing theories and concerns that have already been stated on these boards. Many of the CC posters that I have read are way ahead of the curve on most all of this.

[1corona4u]

Just watched my recording of Greta from last night. It does appear that at least some of the "experts" are doing a little homework in finding out the timeline and witness accounts, etc. before appearing on national TV to offer opinions. I was a bit frustatrated by the fact that these guys were expressing opinions without even a basic knowledge of the night's events.

 

One thing that appears to be clear is that the RCI coverup issue has been pretty much dismissed by anyone with any credibility. There is even no further mention of the alledged cleaning of the room while it was supposed to be sealed. Apparently RCI has done a sufficient job of providing access records to the cabin that the couple that made those public claims has been discredited. The only ones that continue to scream about an intentional coverup are the parents and they have zero credibilty at this point. The tape of them stating as fact that the canopy was being cleaned at 7:30 AM has been widely exposed and that alone makes anything else they say on the matter seem irrelevant.

 

The consensus is that the presence of blood inside the room or on the balcony and the amount, location, & source is the key to determining foul play. Only the Turkish police and FBI know this for sure. I watched the RCI interviews again and they are very careful about this issue. All they are saying is that there was no blood that was readily visible to the naked eye. They are not confirming or denying anything else. If you take all the statements by all parties as a whole, there seems to be an indication that there was some found somewhere. A towel was mentioned in the Opra interview.

 

There has been some criticism of the Turkish investigaton, but this is being done by parties who have no knowledge of what was actually done and turned over to the FBI. For example, one of Greta's experts criticzed the photos of the canopy because there was no ruler in the picture to indicate size and position. Greta did point out that these were NOT the Turkish photos. The ones that are being shown were taken by passengers. The FBI has the police photos and they may be much more informative. There is a lot of information that has not been made public and so to assume that the Turkish police did a shoddy job is speculation, nothing more. The biggest issue is the short timeframe in wich they performed the investigation. They may have gotten plenty of evidence, but there is no doubt that a longer investigation could have probably yielded more. Again, RCI did not hurry them and apparently asked multiple times if they needed anything else.

 

Concluding that a crime was committed is one thing, convicting the criminal(s) is another. IF (big if) the FBI has determined that there was a crime, their focus is on getting enough evidence to convict. The expert opinion is that unless they can get a "flipper" that may be a very tough job. In this scenario they are probably trying to find the least culpable and pressuring them to turn witness on the other(s). This can be done with either a plea down or possibly even immunity.

 

It is interesting to watch as the TV experts are slowing coming around and expressing theories and concerns that have already been stated on these boards. Many of the CC posters that I have read are way ahead of the curve on most all of this.

 

And did you catch the comment made by Mark Furman,(paraphrasing here) that this should have been investigated by a real authority, or something to that effect, as if to say, the Turks were not qualified. I'd have to listen to it again, but it was a definite slam to the Turkish Police. They had jurisdiction, no matter what anyone thinks of their abilities.

[wolfganghowell]

furr - amen. The CC band who has followed this case for awhile has been much better informed from day one on what is legitimate information, what is rumor and speculation and what is downright slander. It has been so frustrating to see the media coverage of this and know that they have reported such bad information as factual. If I see Susan "Don't call me honey" Filan one more time, I will scream. No wonder she is no longer a prosecutor - she doesn't pay attention to EVIDENCE.

 

Checked out the Oprah board and since it is a different audience and probably one less informed on cruising I find it interesting that MOST posters there (I've skimmed over 300 and there are close to 1200 posts now) do not believe JHS. Most express sympathy for his parents so I would hazard a guess they have not been watching MSNBC to see how irrational his parents and sister have become.

 

Common sense is a good thing to see - most people agree RCI is not CSI Royal Caribbean and that they did what they could. Instead of all this media attention focusing on what happened after, it needs to focus on what happened before. The young men are not talking but why is there no investigation of exactly who these young men are and why do we know nothing about them and their past history? Why have NO FRIENDS of George and Jennifer come forward to speak of them? Maybe they are being loyal friends but you would think someone would want to defend their character since they showed such a lack of character the night in question.

 

And if I hear one more thing about the possibility of them being drugged - please. Take a hair sample. Take a skin sample. But to make hints of Special K or Rohypnol with no basis is wrong wrong wrong!

[EBFURR]

And did you catch the comment made by Mark Furman,(paraphrasing here) that this should have been investigated by a real authority, or something to that effect, as if to say, the Turks were not qualified. I'd have to listen to it again, but it was a definite slam to the Turkish Police. They had jurisdiction, no matter what anyone thinks of their abilities.

 

Yes, I heard that. This is probably the first time he has been asked in for comment and like the others did not do any thorough research beforehand.

 

Maybe I am missing something, but I would think that if you are a well known and reputable attorney or official, as at least some of these guests appear to be, that you would spend at least a couple of hours researching a case before going on a national news program. There is a weath of data available on the web going back to last summer. A simple google search and a couple of hours of reading news articles and blogs will give at least enough background to sound intelligent about it. Heck, even reading RCI's published statement and timeline would be better than nothing. Some of these guys seem to be coming around, but only after having been on TV about it several times already. I think the average Cruise Critic poster knows more than most any of them, even now.

 

This is why the broadcast and news media are rapidly losing ground to the internet as a source for news. Greta is doing the best job that I have seen, but there are still gaps in what she is presenting that could be filled with a little legwork. MSNBC is a joke. Actually, a very unfunny joke.

[berwyn]

I still don.t know why oprah didn't ask any tough questions.What about the groin kick.And why did she go to the spa early.She COULD remember the appoinment but nothing else.Also i agree with ebfurr.MSNBC is very biased.

[Boatdrill]

Since all this is speculation, This is what my imagination has come up with........ She freaks and runs out of the cabin thinking if she can find the casino dude, he can help so she heads to the crew door on the other side of the deck, but can't get anyone to open it...

 

The crew door opens from either side. It's never locked unless in an emergency.

[Barefoot_Pirate]

Furr, I had not seen the statement by the FBI on blood not being easily seen...which I guess means that they see it using some CSI magic stuff.

 

That said, I would guess that most cabins are covered in old blood...I've left some from cuts and the like. So I'm guessing that they will need to test to see if any of the spots are from DH or just some we all left behind.

 

But I don't watch CSI, so maybe they can make the determination more easily than I would guess. Anyone know??

[budaman]

Guess my imagination locked the door, so I'll have to revise the scenario to: Casino guy brushes Jennifer off and exits through the crew door, locking it behind him so she cannot follow him. Jennifer then returns to her cabin.

 

One thing about CSI and the like.......have heard that many DA's around the country have lost cases because the Jury Pool is so enamored with what they do on the shows, that they expect the same kind of detail & investigation in real life cases. Unfortunately, most municipalities don't have the budget or expertise to get the results that the TV shows do.

 

I just hope the Turkish authorities did a thorough job collecting evidence that will justify RCI's handling of the situation and result in a conclusion to this mystery that will let George's soul finally rest in peace.

 

Mike

 

http://www.homepage.mac.com/csealove/

[AFT_LOVER]

Mark Fuhrman (now he has added the "h") per Greta, and his wonderful work on OJ's case. Got him fired..........

 

 

And did you catch the comment made by Mark Furman,(paraphrasing here) that this should have been investigated by a real authority, or something to that effect, as if to say, the Turks were not qualified. I'd have to listen to it again, but it was a definite slam to the Turkish Police. They had jurisdiction, no matter what anyone thinks of their abilities.

[AFT_LOVER]

Blood was found on a towel & a Kleenex both in the bathroom. On Rita's show someone stated a finderprint of blood on the hseet of the bed.

 

So he nicked shaving that day, or the bloody nose issue. As I stated on the deleted 1300 post thread, if it was a pool in the bed, then that is Jen's period....

 

 

 

Furr, I had not seen the statement by the FBI on blood not being easily seen...which I guess means that they see it using some CSI magic stuff.

 

That said, I would guess that most cabins are covered in old blood...I've left some from cuts and the like. So I'm guessing that they will need to test to see if any of the spots are from DH or just some we all left behind.

 

But I don't watch CSI, so maybe they can make the determination more easily than I would guess. Anyone know??

[kenf333]

Anyone know how to determine what nationality a name is derived from? (hope I said that correctly)

[Barefoot_Pirate]

Buda, from what I've read, there was a cleaning person in the elivator with her who offered to escort her to her room, she declined and got off on her floor and wondered off. So she was alone at that point. Given the time line, it is unlikly that a romanic encounter could have taken place or have been attempted.

 

IMHO she was just drunk, made a wrong turn, and finally the booze overcame her and she sits on the floor and takes a nap.

 

Not the highlight one would want on the honeymoon, but I'm would suspect it happens a lot more than we think.

 

I wonder if she regrets the circus she has started? I suspect that her origional intentions are not where this has gone, and now it has a life of it's own.

[JerseyMom]

And if I hear one more thing about the possibility of them being drugged - please. Take a hair sample. Take a skin sample. But to make hints of Special K or Rohypnol with no basis is wrong wrong wrong!

 

Absolutely, Wolfie! I don't know about Special K but Rohyphnol (sp?) combined with too much alcohol has been known to be fatal. If Jennifer had been drugged along with the amount she had been drinking, I doubt she would be around to sue RCI. Besides, supposedly she was found sleeping in a sitting position - not lying on the floor. Looks as if she just sat on the floor and fell asleep rather than passed out.

[wolfganghowell]

I'm no medical expert but from layperson articles and such if you are drugged you will not awaken within 4 hours and be coherent enough to make it to a spa appt. You would most likely still be asleep or highly confused or even sick. But no she wore the same clothes from the night before and went to an appointment 90 minutes early. JHS cannot have it both ways - she refuses to take any responsibility or admit that her behavior was not perfect but yet she expects RCI to be perfect. ARGH

[Cruzin' Rob]

This may be a little late and someone else may have already pointed it out, but I just finished watching O (recorded it just for this show) and did anyone else catch the couple times Jennifer "sliped up" (or appeared to slip up) one time when she was talking about the incident and she was talking about going to bed and she said "...then I got BACK into bed... I mean I got into bed." There was one other time but I don't remember it. Anyone else catch that?

[princesstori]

Ok, I've been reading these threads from the begining. I may have over looked this, and if I have, I appoligize. JHS insists that she doesn't remember anything. Isn't it possible that she witnessed something, him falling, accidently or what have you, then lost her memory from shock?

[1corona4u]

Ok, I've been reading these threads from the begining. I may have over looked this, and if I have, I appoligize. JHS insists that she doesn't remember anything. Isn't it possible that she witnessed something, him falling, accidently or what have you, then lost her memory from shock?

 

I already posted to this, and yes, it's possible, but in my mind, unlikely. It's the booze, nothing more.

[Barefoot_Pirate]

Wolfie, well said.

 

She may have been sold a bill of goods by the attorney who convinced her that she is a victim who entitled to damages. This is just a form of lotto for the attorney, and what is left of her at the end of this process may not be a worry item.

 

She may be a victim, but it may be of having an attorney leading her down a path of personal distruction.

 

Or perhaps she lives in a surreal world far far from the rest of us.

[1corona4u]

This may be a little late and someone else may have already pointed it out, but I just finished watching O (recorded it just for this show) and did anyone else catch the couple times Jennifer "sliped up" (or appeared to slip up) one time when she was talking about the incident and she was talking about going to bed and she said "...then I got BACK into bed... I mean I got into bed." There was one other time but I don't remember it. Anyone else catch that?

 

Didn't catch that one, but roll it back to when she was telling O about them drinking, and sliped and said "the same night my husband was killed...or".....I have a post with the still image of her face in it, somewhere in one of these post...look in my history....probably back the day after she was on oprah.

[Hazen]

In our legal system today, if you can generate enough sympathy, you never need address your own personal responsibility. Lawyers have learned how to exploit the public's compassion into a cash cow for them and their clients, The family and JS have suffered a terrible loss, therefore, it is someone else"s fault. In our society today, tragedy exempts you from ever having to admit or examine your own choices or actions. The media respects tragedy and little else. It is "disrespectful" to ask the grieving family hard questions about the victim's drinking, the bride's behavior, the misleading statements that they and their lawyers have issued. They are "the little people" fighting the evil faceless mega-rich Corporation. A compassionate jury influenced by a saavy media campaign will no doubt feel they can assauge the family grief by awarding them and their lawyers millions. Some of the real "little people" who work for the corporation will have their jobs eliminated if the award and the negative press causes a downturn at RCCL. IMO ultimately it is those "little people" who will pay for whatever happened after a night of excessive drinking and poor choices on that ship. Will that be compensation enough for JS having to wear "logo clothing" and pay her own way home? Will the family feel that enriching themselves at the expense of people's livelihoods will be justice for George? I guess "Truth" is whatever spin you can sell: "justice" is transforming your tragedy into a financial windfall.

[ts01854]

I'm no medica* expert but from *ayperson artic*es and such if you are drugged you wi** not awaken within 4 hours and be coherent enough to make it to a spa appt. You wou*d most *ike*y sti** be as*eep or high*y confused or even sick. But no she wore the same c*othes from the night before and went to an appointment 90 minutes ear*y. JHS cannot have it both ways - she refuses to take any responsibi*ity or admit that her behavior was not perfect but yet she expects RCI to be perfect. ARGH

 

I think she has admitted that her behavior wasn't the best and that she'll have to live the rest of her life knowing that she and george fought right before his demise

[JerseyMom]

Anyone who saw the Greta show where she interviewed the staff captain and the customer relations officer. Was the "young man" who showed up in the customer relations (or whatever her title is) officer's office because he heard Jennifer and George's name called over the intercom the California teen named Josh or was it one of the Russian kids? I remember she said she was surprised when he asked if they found blood in the cabin.

 

Also, does anyone else think this Josh was a little infatuated with Jen? On the tape that his father made when Josh was being questioned by the Turkish police, Josh was certainly very emphatically defending Jennifer. And if it was him in the office, he also seemed to think he needed to be with Jennifer.

[canucks4]

That's just it, she has NOT accepted responsibility for her reckless behaviour. She said on Oprah (paraphrasing), she may have drank too much but that has nothing to do with it.

 

Excuse me, no memory of that night, no memory of eating, drinking, gambling, flirting, fighting, absolutely no recollection of your husband dying, zippity do dah - therein lies the problem. She knows something....

[JerseyMom]

I think she has admitted that her behavior wasn't the best and that she'll have to live the rest of her life knowing that she and george fought right before his demise

 

When was this? I'd love to read the transcript if you have the link.

[ILoveScotland]

I was away for a couple of days but did watch the Oprah show and was disappointed with Gayle, especially for the mea culpa comment. She's a better reporter than that. I also thought that Oprah had not done her homework as thoroughly as she usually does, perhaps leaving it to Gayle whom she trusts.

 

That said, I have some thoughts from reading through all the posts.

 

1. Was Jennifer drugged? I think it was Ken who posed the possibility of a date rape drug. My understanding (as a layperson only) is that GHB can cause blackouts among other things and that it leaves the system quickly so that even had JHS been tested it might not have shown up. I had a friend a few years ago in another state who "came to" as she was stopped in the wee hours of the morning by the local police and charged with DUI. It's a long story, but the bottom line is that she stayed behind in a bar after family left and the last thing she remembers is talking to some guys. She is a social drinker, and that's all, with no history of blackouts. Yet, she remembers nothing until she was arrested. She's either seen a video or heard a tape recording (can't remember which) of her police interview, and she said she had never seen herself like that. She suspects GHP--also has a suspicion of rape--but police just stuck to DUI. All of this is to say, I believe it's within the realm of possiblity that JHS could have been drugged.

 

2. Did RCCL do everything it could have? No, as the President said, the situation was not handled with perfection, but it was handled with professionalism and compassion. I believe him.

 

3. What about Dr. Lee? I know he's respected, but I haven't been one to put faith in him since he testified on behalf of OJ.

 

4. Who done it? I think we will eventually know. I'd be surprised if JHS was involved.

 

5. What about JHS, her family and George's family? As I said earlier in this thread, grief does strange things to people including making them angry and blaming everyone while being in denial that their beloved should at the least be held responsible for his actions in it all. This doesn't mean George deserved to be killed--I would never say that--I just think that it's time the family (perhaps with some help) began to move out of their denial. Easier said than done, I know, but they're only prolonging their pain and suffering.

 

6. Has the public, especially the media, overlooked George? Yes, and that's too bad. A young man who appeared to have a great future lost his life. He was a husband, son, brother and deserves to be grieved for all he was and could have been, not used as a pawn in a fight between family (either JHS or his parents) and RCCL.