MSC Orchestra And MSC Poesia Collide In Buenos Aires

[SeaTheW0rld]

That'll buff right out

 

https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2019/02/articles/collisions/msc-orchestra-msc-poesia-collide-buenos-aires/

[Beamafar]

Great opportunity to swap ships if you weren't enjoying your cruise!   

 

Thanks for the link, STW.

[Captain-John]

Ooops! Very interesting - thanks for pointing out. Hope there is a follow up. Wind? Mechanical failure? Human error?

[Beamafar]

Looks like Orchestra cut right across in front of Poesia and misjudged the timing needed to get 'round it.  If this was in port, are the pilots to blame?

[Captain-John]

I'm sure the pilots will have some kind of get-out clause! I thought the responsibility for the ship still lies with the Captain, even if there is a pilot onboard - rightly or wrongly.

[SeaTheW0rld]

 

13 minutes ago, Beamafar said:

Looks like Orchestra cut right across in front of Poesia and misjudged the timing needed to get 'round it.  If this was in port, are the pilots to blame?

 

6 minutes ago, Captain-John said:

I'm sure the pilots will have some kind of get-out clause! I thought the responsibility for the ship still lies with the Captain, even if there is a pilot onboard - rightly or wrongly.

 

I was following the cursed NCL Epic cruise.  Someone with some knowledge said that, yes, the Captain is the final person in charge.

 

They also said assigning blame isn't easy.  It's possible that if everyone was following regulations nobody would be blamed. 

[Captain-John]

Absolutely, and I understand that quirks of nature etc. happen. I agree that if the Captain and pilot have followed promulgated procedures, used their experience and judgement to make decisions and the outcome has been unfavourable, then they cannot be 'blamed' even although I am sure they feel terrible. I also dipped into that NCL thread and found the calls for sacking the Captain quite unfounded and in poor taste.

 

Of course, if gross negligence can be proven (a la Costa Concordia) then absolutely the responsible person should be held to account. But otherwise, professionals carrying out their role in a professional manner and in line with their training and published procedures should not be lynched for occurrences like this.

[Beamafar]

As it's your thread, STW, can I ask you to elaborate on the Epic incident.  I heard about there being one and I'd really rather not go over to the NCL thread to read about it.  I only had cause, once, to go to another forum and that was because we were booked on Celebrity and I wanted to learn as much as I could.  This one is about as much as I can deal with.

[SeaTheW0rld]

1 minute ago, Beamafar said:

As it's your thread, STW, can I ask you to elaborate on the Epic incident.  I heard about there being one and I'd really rather not go over to the NCL thread to read about it.  I only had cause, once, to go to another forum and that was because we were booked on Celebrity and I wanted to learn as much as I could.  This one is about as much as I can deal with.

 

Propulsion problems, missed ports, they rammed the dock in Puerto Rico, missed more ports, very late arrival back to Port Canaveral which forced the people on the next cruise to have a 5-day cruise instead of a 7 day.  As they say in italian casino! casino!

[Beamafar]

Cheers ... sounds like the cruise from hell!  Wonder what sort of compensation's being offered.  Did I hear something about full refunds?

[SeaTheW0rld]

4 minutes ago, Beamafar said:

Cheers ... sounds like the cruise from hell!  Wonder what sort of compensation's being offered.  Did I hear something about full refunds?

Last thing I heard was this:

 

Pax on the cursed cruise got travel change expenses, 50% refund and 50% future cruise credit.  They also got to stay on the ship an extra night.

 

Pax on the shortened cruise could get 100% refund plus travel changes or they could take the cruise and get 100% future cruise credit. 

[Beamafar]

Thanks again - sorry for the derailment!

[SeaTheW0rld]

10 minutes ago, Beamafar said:

Thanks again - sorry for the derailment!

 

Np. It's related.  

 

Wow, the scrape isn't  that bad, but the wing door thingy torn off... Might this effect sea-worthiness?

Edited February 21, 2019 by SeaTheW0rld
.

[travelbug1020]

Hmmm we were on the Poesia in September and will be on the Orchestra this September.... we are 2 for 2!!

 

[SeaTheW0rld]

Another video.  Sped up and a bit grainy but it clearly shows what happened.

 

 

[sidari]

 

[sidari]

Damage to Orchestra.

[chengkp75]

Well, the damage to the bow mooring platform is of minor concern, since that is an open deck area anyway, it doesn't affect seaworthiness.  Now, the damage to the lifeboat davit, will require a look at how many passengers are onboard, and how many can continue onward.  That's going to  take a few days to repair.  Looks to be some hull damage from the corner of the pier as well.

 

From a quick look at the videos, as bad as they are, it looks like the stern tug was not doing what it was supposed to, keeping the stern from swinging to starboard, it certainly got the message after the allision, as she moves to port and starts pulling quite well.

 

Yes, the pilot is to blame for the accident, but the Captain is responsible.  The pilot is only an advisor to the Captain, who may be given the authority to give orders to the bridge team to maneuver the ship, but the Captain retains the responsibility.  If, at any time, the Captain feels that the pilot is doing something that endangers the ship, crew, passengers, environment, or another ship or structure, the Captain may relieve the pilot of the conn and take over, or stop, the maneuver evolution.

 

From the NCL Epic thread, it isn't that assigning "blame" isn't easy, it is that there are cases where every rule is followed, and bad things still happen.  If the Captain is found to have followed all established procedures and protocols, yet the accident still happened, he cannot be "faulted" for it, but he is still "responsible" for it.

[sidari]

Cheng ... From other photos it appears that two Lifeboats are affected.

[Captain-John]

chengkp75

 

My thoughts were exactly the same regarding the (in)action of the rear tug. Glad an expert such as yourself came to the same assessment - I was too afraid to post these thoughts earlier should someone like yourself come along and disprove me!

 

The buck does stop with the Captain - but as you say that's not the same as being vilified for wrongdoing when the totality of all the circumstances aren't known. That's what an investigation is for.

[chengkp75]

44 minutes ago, sidari said:

Cheng ... From other photos it appears that two Lifeboats are affected.

That becomes about a 300 pax hit to capacity.  Not only will the repair need to be made, but then the entire davit structure will have to be weight tested to 125% of the weight of a fully loaded boat, and that's not easy to arrange.  Does it look like the boats themselves are damaged?  I would imagine so.

[jock66]

if you look at the smoke from the smoke stack. it looks like  was hit by a gust of wind

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, jock66 said:

if you look at the smoke from the smoke stack. it looks like  was hit by a gust of wind

It looks to me like a pretty consistent wind from port to starboard, I don't see any big change during the maneuver.  That appears to be the prevailing wind, and should have been accounted for in the undocking plan.

[mnocket]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, the damage to the bow mooring platform is of minor concern, since that is an open deck area anyway, it doesn't affect seaworthiness.  Now, the damage to the lifeboat davit, will require a look at how many passengers are onboard, and how many can continue onward.  That's going to  take a few days to repair.  Looks to be some hull damage from the corner of the pier as well.

 

From a quick look at the videos, as bad as they are, it looks like the stern tug was not doing what it was supposed to, keeping the stern from swinging to starboard, it certainly got the message after the allision, as she moves to port and starts pulling quite well.

 

Yes, the pilot is to blame for the accident, but the Captain is responsible.  The pilot is only an advisor to the Captain, who may be given the authority to give orders to the bridge team to maneuver the ship, but the Captain retains the responsibility.  If, at any time, the Captain feels that the pilot is doing something that endangers the ship, crew, passengers, environment, or another ship or structure, the Captain may relieve the pilot of the conn and take over, or stop, the maneuver evolution.

 

From the NCL Epic thread, it isn't that assigning "blame" isn't easy, it is that there are cases where every rule is followed, and bad things still happen.  If the Captain is found to have followed all established procedures and protocols, yet the accident still happened, he cannot be "faulted" for it, but he is still "responsible" for it.

Question maybe you can answer.

There have recently been several incidents involving cruise ships and there has been speculation as to why they happened and who is to blame.  However we never seem to hear any official reports after the investigation is complete.  I have to believe that such reports are published and are available to the public.  Am I wrong?  If not, where can we find the reports?  Thanks.

[chengkp75]

38 minutes ago, mnocket said:

Question maybe you can answer.

There have recently been several incidents involving cruise ships and there has been speculation as to why they happened and who is to blame.  However we never seem to hear any official reports after the investigation is complete.  I have to believe that such reports are published and are available to the public.  Am I wrong?  If not, where can we find the reports?  Thanks.

It is up to the various agencies, such as flag state and port state as to whether a full investigation is conducted.  The port state has jurisdiction because it happened in their port, the flag state has jurisdiction because it is their ship.  Now, whether or not these agencies feel that an investigation is warranted is their business, as is whether or not the report of the investigation is published.  For instance, the NCL Epic incident will be investigated by the USCG with assistance from the NTSB, and the report of the investigation, which may take months to complete, and months to publish, would be published on the USCG website:  https://cgmix.uscg.mil/iir/Default.aspx.  This is not always updated in a timely fashion, so it can be quite a while before a report is published.  The report on the Carnival Splendor fire in 2010, which the Panamanian Maritime Authority asked the USCG to assist in investigating, took 3 years to be published.  This incident for MSC would be investigated by the Panamanian Maritime Authority (as flag state) and the Argentine Coast Guard (as port state), but whether or not a report is ever published for the public is unknown.