Fire on a cruise ship leads to an evacuation!

[jsn55]

7 hours ago, ontheweb said:

So, in a real emergency would you just stay in your cabin to avoid the crowd?

In certain cases, I might be inclined to jump off my balcony rather than deal with hundreds of dithering people accompanied by lots of screaming.  I could order room service and a bottle of champagne for my last meal.  Seriously, on our last cruise SF-HNL, I was so distracted by my husband's trouble walking that I realized a week in that I didn't even know where our muster station was.  Kind of an eye-opener.

Edited June 12, 2023 by jsn55

[DRS/NC]

Count me among those who prefer actually going to my Muster Station!  Most of us learn better by doing.

 

I'm "elderly" and have been cruising for 50 yrs.  Now I have mobility issues; I know that actually getting to my Muster Station in a real emergency would take "Crew assistance."  I also know that it would (most probably) involve great difficulty getting past panicked, unruly passengers.

 

I usually cruise w/Princess & I know that all the Muster Stations are on deck 7; it's generally directly below my cabin (count the decks down).  (PCL assigns stations vertically.) Therefore, I always try to get a cabin on deck 8 or slightly higher.  It wouldn't be easy, but I'm fairly sure I could get DOWN the stairs to deck 7, if necessary.

 

And yes, I now unpack while "watching" the emergency video, but I usually watch twice.  

 

[sparks1093]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:31 PM, DRS/NC said:

Count me among those who prefer actually going to my Muster Station!  Most of us learn better by doing.

 

I'm "elderly" and have been cruising for 50 yrs.  Now I have mobility issues; I know that actually getting to my Muster Station in a real emergency would take "Crew assistance."  I also know that it would (most probably) involve great difficulty getting past panicked, unruly passengers.

 

I usually cruise w/Princess & I know that all the Muster Stations are on deck 7; it's generally directly below my cabin (count the decks down).  (PCL assigns stations vertically.) Therefore, I always try to get a cabin on deck 8 or slightly higher.  It wouldn't be easy, but I'm fairly sure I could get DOWN the stairs to deck 7, if necessary.

 

And yes, I now unpack while "watching" the emergency video, but I usually watch twice.  

 

The current practice is for you to still go to your muster station so no worries there. You just go at your convenience prior to sail away rather than at the same time as everyone else. (When DW boarded a cruise with a bum leg we mustered in a special area for people that needed assistance, which was inside near the muster station as I recall.)

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

The current practice is for you to still go to your muster station so no worries there. You just go at your convenience prior to sail away rather than at the same time as everyone else. (When DW boarded a cruise with a bum leg we mustered in a special area for people that needed assistance, which was inside near the muster station as I recall.)

And if a real emergency ever happened, do you think the announcement would be "please proceed to your muster station at your convenience?".

[sparks1093]

6 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And if a real emergency ever happened, do you think the announcement would be "please proceed to your muster station at your convenience?".

Of course not, that's one of the reasons why I would support going back to the way it was (as much as I like the current process).

[ontheweb]

14 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Of course not, that's one of the reasons why I would support going back to the way it was (as much as I like the current process).

I knew you felt that way, but there are too many who are satisfied with the new "drill", and do not realize there actually could be a real emergency.

[JRG]

8 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I knew you felt that way, but there are (1) too many who are satisfied with the new "drill",

and (2) do not realize there actually could be a real emergency.

 

(1) this part is definitely true 

(2) this part is definitely not true.....(you know it because you were an umpire for 33 years)

 

.....Most cruisers are aware that emergencies can occur and most regular cruisers are aware of muster drills ,their purpose, and the change to E-Muster..

 

In the words of Mr. Spock...."the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

 

The Coast Guard got it right when they approved the change....and the naysayers who wanted it to stay the old way have lost out.   Sometimes this causes alot of sour grapes when any kind of an emergency arises at sea and people want to blame it on E-muster during a thread.   

 

If you really want to still muster the old way,  you still can,  just go out and do it,  people will know what you are trying to do but it will feel pretty silly especially when you are waiting to hear the 7 loud blasts followed by a single long blast.

 

 

 

[JRG]

With respect to emergencies and lifeboats....there are essentially only two narratives.  And you do not need a captains license to figure this out.

 

1) the ship is tipped over so far that the lifeboats cannot be used, or something else happened 

bad that the lifeboats cannot be used. (in other words,   the emergency is so bad that is doesn't whether you mustered under General Patton or in the comfort of your cabin as you unpacked your unmentionables.)   

 

or.....

 

2) the lifeboats can be utilized safely because the emergency is not that bad as to prevent the lifeboats from being utilized.. (This is why we drill and muster) 

 

So,  the US Coast Guard was smart enough to realize that in situation 2),  because of the amount of time is takes the crew to get the lifeboats enabled for boarding,  most people will have been able to reach the lifeboat and it was not necessary to stand in rows of 15 or 20 by 6 deep as that would probably just be a major cluster.   People are probably going to be loaded into the boat on a first come first served basis, so we probably won't be standing in rows unless the crew is having trouble with the lifeboat.

 

The US Coast Guard is also smart enough to know that cruisers have their muster station numbers printed on their cruisecard (or app) so they would not believe the baloney stories that are on this thread about people panicking and screaming because they forgot their muster station.

 

I'd be more worried about lack of experience and training on a cruise ship today because of the immense turnover in personnel that the industry has experienced.   

 

 

 

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

With respect to emergencies and lifeboats....there are essentially only two narratives.  And you do not need a captains license to figure this out.

And, once again, you have completely misunderstood the purpose of the passenger muster, which has absolutely nothing to do with lifeboats.  If it did, then the Star Princess would not have called for passenger muster when the fire first broke out, but would have waited hours until it was clear that the ship could not be saved (which didn't happen).  But, your years of cruising experience has clearly shown you all you need to know.

 

In fact, the last actual emergency muster that I have heard about, on an RCI ship, was due to a man overboard situation, so there was no earthly possibility of getting into lifeboats.  And, from first hand reports, the muster was a shambles, because the passengers could not remember what deck their muster station was on, let alone where it was specifically.  And, the excuse given was "well, it was 7 days ago when we were shown our muster station", so I guess that the e-muster drill has a "retention time" of less than 7 days.

[sparks1093]

9 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

And, once again, you have completely misunderstood the purpose of the passenger muster, which has absolutely nothing to do with lifeboats.  If it did, then the Star Princess would not have called for passenger muster when the fire first broke out, but would have waited hours until it was clear that the ship could not be saved (which didn't happen).  But, your years of cruising experience has clearly shown you all you need to know.

 

In fact, the last actual emergency muster that I have heard about, on an RCI ship, was due to a man overboard situation, so there was no earthly possibility of getting into lifeboats.  And, from first hand reports, the muster was a shambles, because the passengers could not remember what deck their muster station was on, let alone where it was specifically.  And, the excuse given was "well, it was 7 days ago when we were shown our muster station", so I guess that the e-muster drill has a "retention time" of less than 7 days.

Exactly. Passengers can be and are mustered to keep them out of harms way (as for a fire) and to make sure everyone is accounted for (as for a man overboard). The old way of mustering was not just for the passengers, it was to train the crew in their responsibilities and helped them to learn how to handle masses of humanity. We passengers must remember that the crew would have been going through these drills every sailing for the length of their contract, which would make them more adept at their duties in the event of an emergency. 

[ontheweb]

12 hours ago, JRG said:

With respect to emergencies and lifeboats....there are essentially only two narratives.  And you do not need a captains license to figure this out.

 

1) the ship is tipped over so far that the lifeboats cannot be used, or something else happened 

bad that the lifeboats cannot be used. (in other words,   the emergency is so bad that is doesn't whether you mustered under General Patton or in the comfort of your cabin as you unpacked your unmentionables.)   

 

or.....

 

2) the lifeboats can be utilized safely because the emergency is not that bad as to prevent the lifeboats from being utilized.. (This is why we drill and muster) 

 

So,  the US Coast Guard was smart enough to realize that in situation 2),  because of the amount of time is takes the crew to get the lifeboats enabled for boarding,  most people will have been able to reach the lifeboat and it was not necessary to stand in rows of 15 or 20 by 6 deep as that would probably just be a major cluster.   People are probably going to be loaded into the boat on a first come first served basis, so we probably won't be standing in rows unless the crew is having trouble with the lifeboat.

 

The US Coast Guard is also smart enough to know that cruisers have their muster station numbers printed on their cruisecard (or app) so they would not believe the baloney stories that are on this thread about people panicking and screaming because they forgot their muster station.

 

I'd be more worried about lack of experience and training on a cruise ship today because of the immense turnover in personnel that the industry has experienced.   

 

 

 

 

I will not comment because I have seen others have already refuted what you have said about the muster drill, and there is really nothing I can add.

 

Thank you, @chengkp75 and @sparks1093

[JRG]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

I will not comment because I have seen others have already refuted what you have said about the muster drill, and there is really nothing I can add.

 

I did not want you to comment,  I just wanted to show you what a massive mistake you made by generalizing how you think all people feel.

 

You are fighting a battle that was lost two years ago when all of the naysayers were shocked that NCL instituted the E-muster.  The funny thing is that is happened while I was just casually commenting that in a current thread that it would be nice to use smart phones to help with Muster and then the naysayers jumped in.   Long story short,   they were all sent packing in a life raft with the tails between their legs.   

 

They always show up with sour grapes when the discussions turns to emergencies and or mustering.   

 

E-muster is here to stay,   and it is a morbid thought to think that there are some who wish it to fail at the expense of crew or passenger injury life just to prove that they think that their old way is the best way.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, JRG said:

 

I did not want you to comment,  I just wanted to show you what a massive mistake you made by generalizing how you think all people feel.

 

You are fighting a battle that was lost two years ago when all of the naysayers were shocked that NCL instituted the E-muster.  The funny thing is that is happened while I was just casually commenting that in a current thread that it would be nice to use smart phones to help with Muster and then the naysayers jumped in.   Long story short,   they were all sent packing in a life raft with the tails between their legs.   

 

They always show up with sour grapes when the discussions turns to emergencies and or mustering.   

 

E-muster is here to stay,   and it is a morbid thought to think that there are some who wish it to fail at the expense of crew or passenger injury life just to prove that they think that their old way is the best way.

I never said ALL people felt that way. A majority probably feel like you do. But that might change if there was a real emergency.

 

In the past, the seriousness that the cruise lines took the muster drill did change after the Costa Concordia disaster.

[sparks1093]

6 hours ago, JRG said:

 

I did not want you to comment,  I just wanted to show you what a massive mistake you made by generalizing how you think all people feel.

 

You are fighting a battle that was lost two years ago when all of the naysayers were shocked that NCL instituted the E-muster.  The funny thing is that is happened while I was just casually commenting that in a current thread that it would be nice to use smart phones to help with Muster and then the naysayers jumped in.   Long story short,   they were all sent packing in a life raft with the tails between their legs.   

 

They always show up with sour grapes when the discussions turns to emergencies and or mustering.   

 

E-muster is here to stay,   and it is a morbid thought to think that there are some who wish it to fail at the expense of crew or passenger injury life just to prove that they think that their old way is the best way.

It might be here to stay, it might not be. The regulators move slow (and I don't think the USCG has much input) and they may decide to return to the way it used to be. Of course, they could decide to wait until an emergency happens and someone gets hurt before making the change. 

[jsn55]

On 6/20/2023 at 2:48 PM, JRG said:

With respect to emergencies and lifeboats....there are essentially only two narratives.  And you do not need a captains license to figure this out.

 

1) the ship is tipped over so far that the lifeboats cannot be used, or something else happened 

bad that the lifeboats cannot be used. (in other words,   the emergency is so bad that is doesn't whether you mustered under General Patton or in the comfort of your cabin as you unpacked your unmentionables.)   

 

or.....

 

2) the lifeboats can be utilized safely because the emergency is not that bad as to prevent the lifeboats from being utilized.. (This is why we drill and muster) 

 

So,  the US Coast Guard was smart enough to realize that in situation 2),  because of the amount of time is takes the crew to get the lifeboats enabled for boarding,  most people will have been able to reach the lifeboat and it was not necessary to stand in rows of 15 or 20 by 6 deep as that would probably just be a major cluster.   People are probably going to be loaded into the boat on a first come first served basis, so we probably won't be standing in rows unless the crew is having trouble with the lifeboat.

 

The US Coast Guard is also smart enough to know that cruisers have their muster station numbers printed on their cruisecard (or app) so they would not believe the baloney stories that are on this thread about people panicking and screaming because they forgot their muster station.

 

I'd be more worried about lack of experience and training on a cruise ship today because of the immense turnover in personnel that the industry has experienced.   

 

 

 

 

All one needs is many experiences dealing with travel emergencies to know that 90% of the pax on a cruise ship would panic in a real emergency.  If you've only had 'discussions on the subject' you may not realize how bad things can get.  Even if a real muster would help half the pax at least go get their life jackets and proceed to their stations, that would be a great improvement over what would happen today with 'watching a video'.  There's little comfort in the fact that the Coast Guard has approved this new pax-friendly muster procedure.  

[ontheweb]

11 hours ago, jsn55 said:

All one needs is many experiences dealing with travel emergencies to know that 90% of the pax on a cruise ship would panic in a real emergency.  If you've only had 'discussions on the subject' you may not realize how bad things can get.  Even if a real muster would help half the pax at least go get their life jackets and proceed to their stations, that would be a great improvement over what would happen today with 'watching a video'.  There's little comfort in the fact that the Coast Guard has approved this new pax-friendly muster procedure.  

And it should be noted that it was approved at a time when there was much more concern about the spread of Covid.

[JRG]

On 6/21/2023 at 6:44 PM, jsn55 said:

All one needs is many experiences dealing with travel emergencies to know that 90% of the pax on a cruise ship would panic in a real emergency.  If you've only had 'discussions on the subject' you may not realize how bad things can get. 

 

Here is one experience we had on an Alaskan cruise.

 

We had taken a river rafting tour earlier in the day with our family and this mandated that before starting out we had to learn the basics of rafting to maintain balance as a group and .......later that night in the MDR....

 

...We were a group of ten or so sitting in the far back right (starboard), which was sort of sectioned off but still part of the MDR, when during dinner the ship made a loud clunk which seemed right below us and then started a very slow listing with a creaking sound.   Everybody in the dining room grew quiet as the ship started tilting and tilting and tilting, all very slowly and you just kept expecting it to come to stop, but it wouldn't stop.

 

The whole episode took about 30 seconds, maybe longer to unfold but nobody knew what was going to happen because all expectations were ho-hum not a big deal and the ship would right itself but no, instead people were deathly quiet (not screaming or running for balconies) and yes,  most people probably panicked.  (This was a Type 1 Narrative,  lifeboats could not be used by now).  The ship has listed so far that things were sliding on tables and frankly,   this was the closest thing to a Posieden Adventure Scenario that I had ever experienced and I'm not joking,  that is a strange feeling if the ship had continued to keep listing until it capsized.   It if had kept rolling over then the screaming would have kicked in but all you could hear was the China jingling on the table...

 

Then all of a sudden,  our 9 year old shouts out "Everybody run to the Other Side of the Ship", followed by another moment of silence,  and then a lady in the table closest to ours in the corner of the MDR starts laughing out loud hysterically (not ROFL though) followed by me who realized that in all of the deathly still of an emergency,  it was the wit and smart thinking of a 9 -year old who had the presence of mind to stand up and warn the other passengers to try and save the ship by remembering his river raft training to maintain balance in the raft and apply it to the ships listing.

 

The Captain would later announce to the passengers that the ship had to pull an ermergency full hard right or left to avoid a small craft and that was what we heard and experienced.

 

There is probably something to be said for improving Muster awareness and that process should always be ongoing,  but I'm guessing there were too many injuries and heart attacks and heat-strokes and sprained ankles from the old-style of muster drill,  but nobody ever talks about that.  That might have been some of the impetus to change to E-muster and it makes sense.

 

This is a true story and is entered into the Captains log with the details.

 

p.s.  Son we love you very much and are always thinking of you!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by JRG

[ontheweb]

9 minutes ago, JRG said:

 

There is probably something to be said for improving Muster awareness and that process should always be ongoing,  but I'm guessing there were too many injuries and heart attacks and heat-strokes and sprained ankles from the old-style of muster drill,  but nobody ever talks about that.  That might have been some of the impetus to change to E-muster and it makes sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

They changed to the e-muster because of Covid. Everyone is so glad to be rid of all the other covid related changes like testing and masking.

 

[Cruzaholic41]

On 6/20/2023 at 1:24 PM, JRG said:

 

(1) this part is definitely true 

(2) this part is definitely not true.....(you know it because you were an umpire for 33 years)

 

.....Most cruisers are aware that emergencies can occur and most regular cruisers are aware of muster drills ,their purpose, and the change to E-Muster..

 

In the words of Mr. Spock...."the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

 

The Coast Guard got it right when they approved the change....and the naysayers who wanted it to stay the old way have lost out.   Sometimes this causes alot of sour grapes when any kind of an emergency arises at sea and people want to blame it on E-muster during a thread.   

 

If you really want to still muster the old way,  you still can,  just go out and do it,  people will know what you are trying to do but it will feel pretty silly especially when you are waiting to hear the 7 loud blasts followed by a single long blast.

 

 

 

This comment makes no sense. How exactly have the so-called naysayers “lost out?”  
 

When educated maritime experts say they are not in support of the new procedures, I tend to trust them. 
 

Oh, and here is where you are wrong. You keep saying the USCG approved this method, as though they are in support of it. They are not. In reality, the USCG did not oppose this method because it technically meets the letter of the law. In other words, they couldn’t stop it. That does not mean they support it, and I know for a fact they don’t.   So please stop typing as though you know what you’re talking about. 

[Cruzaholic41]

On 6/21/2023 at 6:31 AM, JRG said:

 

 

E-muster is here to stay,   and it is a morbid thought to think that there are some who wish it to fail at the expense of crew or passenger injury life just to prove that they think that their old way is the best way.

Wow!  No one EVER said anything like that. You really need to stop with the melodrama. 

[chengkp75]

I have an e-mail into the USCG CSCOE (Cruise Ship Center of Excellence), which is the department that studies regulations and incidents for passenger vessels, and formulates the Safety Bulletins, with regards to their position, and possibly the IMO's position, on the efficacy and permanence of the e-muster.  Will likely have a response in a week or two.

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

Wow!  No one EVER said anything like that. You really need to stop with the melodrama. 

He can't.  That's all he does is melodrama.

[JRG]

7 hours ago, ontheweb said:

They changed to the e-muster because of Covid. Everyone is so glad to be rid of all the other covid related changes like testing and masking.

 

Actually NCL instituted it's version  before Covid.  As I said,  I was on an CC thread casually discussing how smart phones could potentially help the muster process and then NCL beat everybody to the punch,  so the people on the losing end of the argument 'lost out' because it caught on like wildfire.

 

The timing was perfect.   E-muster definitely helped with Covid not to mention how it helps mitigate spreading  cruz crud,  and probably novo and the flu by eliminating the beginning of cruise congregation where everybody sniffs the same air and spreads the germs du jour that they have picked up in their travels.   Those days are gone.  

 

By the way,  it is just a matter of time before the smartphones can interface with the ships onboard EMS so that in the event of a Type 2 Emergency,   the EMS system will actually send passengers to the nearest available lifeboat to avoid the confusion that happens when everybody crosses each others path and has to go up and down stairs.   Can you imagine how much better this would for those who are ambulatory challenged?

 

The EMS system will be able to re-direct passengers in the most efficient way possible and it won't matter if they have forgotten their muster station.   It will alert them to best path by interfacing with the damage control systems for blocked access ways.  

 

That's how I would tell the experts in the field of marine safety what they should be looking for in the ways to improve the efficiency of the muster drill and execution.   And I would help them with the high-level systems design on the project too. 

 

Consider this a cocktail napkin of sorts.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by JRG

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, JRG said:

in the event of a Type 2 Emergency,   the EMS system will actually send passengers to the nearest available lifeboat to avoid the confusion that happens when everybody crosses each others path and has to go up and down stairs.

Wow, talk about creating confusion, rather than lessening it.  How would each boat crew know who is boarding the boat, and how would the master muster list of all passengers be updated, if everyone is simply going to any boat.  And, what of people who don't have smart phones?  There are still some out there who post about it here on CC.  By the way, what shipboard EMS system?  And, what is a "type 2 emergency", and how does it differ from a "type 1"?  And, confusion on confusion,  you are directed to one location for a "type 1" emergency, but to a different location for a "type 2"?

 

And, the "damage control systems" are not electronic, and would not be updated instantaneously.

 

And, in fact, RCI started the e-muster drill first, long before NCL, and they were given a provisional approval for testing this format, and as far as  I know, the e-muster is still under provisional approval.

[jsn55]

Emergency Instructions on your Smart Phone!  What a novel concept.  It's precisely the vast numbers of people with phones glued to their hands and their noses an inch from the screen 24/7 that I'm worried about when it comes to panic.