CCL High Debt /what is Your Opinion

[Guest ldtr]

1 minute ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

When I see that this number of 95% occupancy reflects the entire CCL fleet, I am left wondering where HAL stands. Clearly some lines must be below 95% if that is the average. 

 

Given that HAL attracts fewer children than most lines, I can't imagine it is as easy for them to reach past 100% occupancy (which assumes more than 2 people in a cabin) regularly.

 

I wonder if that plays into CCL corporate decisions as to which lines get more promotion, resources, etc.?

Actually 98% occupancy for the last quarter for the fleet. 107% expected next quarter.

 

Have to consider by line.  The family focused lines such as Carnival, to some degree P&O, Costa will have the highest occupancy in normal times.  Since Carnival is 41% of the fleet capacity if the over fleet is 41% you can figures that Carnival is probably running 5% or so higher than average.  Unclear exactly how Costa and the other European lines are doing, though P&O UK seems to be running pretty full on their large new ships such as Iona.  P&O runs about another 7%.  I would expect if they are posting 98% for the fleet and during these months I would guess that Carnival is around 103% and the adult focused lines such as Princess and HAL are probably running about 93 to 94%.  That would pretty much match what I have seen on board on the cruises I have been on during that quarter.

 

They have ramped up advertising, just as their competition has.  Most that I have seen have been aimed at the adult facing lines.

 

This quarter covered the months March, April, May so it did include the spring break months.  

[BermudaBound2014]

30 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

When I see that this number of 95% occupancy reflects the entire CCL fleet, I am left wondering where HAL stands. Clearly some lines must be below 95% if that is the average. 

 

Given that HAL attracts fewer children than most lines, I can't imagine it is as easy for them to reach past 100% occupancy (which assumes more than 2 people in a cabin) regularly.

 

I wonder if that plays into CCL corporate decisions as to which lines get more promotion, resources, etc.?

 

I agree that It is unfortunate that CCL doesn't give specifics on each line. It would help travelers plan vacations knowing which lines are stable. I would love to see HAL specific data.

 

What we can ascertain from booking data is that Carnival is booking solid in the Caribbean this summer. Not surprised, kids are out of school. HAL is not booking well in Alaska and the Med (as evidenced by fire sale pricing). 

 

In order to get to 107% CCL is heavily discounting Holland America for Q3.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by BermudaBound2014

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Here's the Q2 (ending May 31) announcement. Got to admit that I don't like the number of 'adjusted' and non-GAAAP interpretations.

 

https://www.carnivalcorp.com/financial-information/quarterly-and-semiannual-reports

 

Back to old-fashion basics. On Page 11 (as of May 31, 2023), Cash is just $4.7b versus customer deposits $6.9. The reality is that Current Assets is just $6.8b versus Current Liability of $11.2b. Note that long term assets include $1.75b in goodwill and intangibles. The only way to realize this is to sell assets at a book profit.

 

Long Term Debt (May 31) is unchanged from November at $31.9b versus Shareholder equity of just $5.8b (down from 6 months prior of $7b).

 

Conclusion: CCL is dead in the water if there is another stoppage or slow-down.

 

There's a big improvement in cash flow. The biggest source of funds has been the $2b increase in pax deposits from November.

 

Cash from operations (Page 13 Six Months to May 31) was positive $1.5b versus capital expenditure $1.8b. Yes, CCL has to pay for new-builds and ship maintenance, as well as interest and debt repayment. Big numbers (Page 6) - $3.3b 2023 and $4.1b 2024.

 

Conclusion: CCL has stopped much of the leakage, but the CCL is still deeply water logged.

 

On operational metrics (Page 14 Q2), Gross margin per diems (per PCD) was just $38 versus $50 in 2019. Lots of work here to raise revenues and control costs.

 

All this on the basis of a huge increase (Page 12) in Passenger Cruise Day (6 months period) 42m vs 19m. As you world expect, there has been a major recovery as the pandemic ended. But, most of the good news has been realized.

 

With occupancy at 95% (First Half 2023), CCL has to battle its competitors to gain the last few %. IMHO, HAL won't gain that last few % by raising fares and cutting costs.

 

As I have pointed out, most pax have a limited amount to spend. So, higher fares = lower onboard spending. With a recession looming at the end of 2023, the future is murky.

You do know I assume of how depreciation works.  It is a paper transaction, a recording of previously spent capital.  So even though it is in the P&L  it does not cost the company anything and you can add that to any profit to determine cash flow.

 

Certainly assets will go down.  The depreciation is a write down on the value of assets as they age.  So of course the value of assets will drop based upon their depreciation.  As long as they are not building new ships their assets will drop.

 

For the next 3 years the debt will go up because they are still continuing their CapEX spend on the remaining ship orders.  That Capex is more than depreciation so as those ships are finished.  the assets will go up.  However, over time as they are paying off debt the existing depreciation will continue and the book value of the assets will continue to drop.

 

Ship repair is an expense.  The reason for expenses being a bit higher this last quarter was because of dry dock costs and the timing of some expenses ending up in this quarter.  Lets wee what they are next quarter when that should normalize.

 

As far as occupancy keep in mind that they are forecasting 107% for Q3.  A quarter where almost 1/3 of the cruises have already left port.  A quarter that is entirely within the final payment window. The only uncertainly is how many last minute booking might happen in the last two months of the quarter. That means that they know with a high degree of accuracy how many passengers are going to be on board during that quarter.  So it appears for the next quarter they have increased the occupancy.

 

Based upon prior year since Q3 is for the summer months it is usually peak occupancy.  The quarter for 2019 and 2018 ran 113% and 112% respectively.  So with their current projections they are still running about 6% below 2019, but building pretty quickly to the old level.  Occupancy for Q4 then dropped to about 103.6% in Q4.

 

Q4 will probably drop back somewhat.  Taking into account the seasonal adjustment and the occupancy trend line I expect Q4 (Sept, Oct, Nov) to be a bit lower. Probably between 99 to 101%.

 

You do happen to notice that I corrected my own error and moved the number to the 4 billion range after I realized I have not accounted for the loans for the CapEX spend. I seem to recall that you were saying at that time that they would not even have 4 billion.

 

The odds of another stoppage is pretty low.  If there is another stoppage does not matter what any numbers are even if their was no debt.  As far as a slow down the impact of the last one in the 2016-2018 range was about $7 per passengers in revenue and little to no change in occupancy.

 

As far as are the customers willing to spend.  So far they have certainly been and are still spending on other travel types.  Cruising overall is far more of a discount to the other forms of travel than they were prior to the shutdown. That is actually good news for the cruise industry.  The increased of on board spend does not be a major drag.  You are seeing some shift in travel starting to  take palce.  Some due the shift away from work at home and some impact in the vacation rental market.  High end still very strong.  Low end still very strong.  Middle softening a bit with demand showing some price sensitivity.  Considering how much those have increased and the cruise price points it bodes well for the cruise industry even with the anticipated price increases coming.

[BermudaBound2014]

2 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Q4 will probably drop back somewhat.  Taking into account the seasonal adjustment and the occupancy trend line I expect Q4 (Sept, Oct, Nov) to be a bit lower. Probably between 99 to 101%..

 

Let's see how this comment ages. 

[Guest ldtr]

42 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

I agree that It is unfortunate that CCL doesn't give specifics on each line. It would help travelers plan vacations knowing which lines are stable. I would love to see HAL specific data.

 

What we can ascertain from booking data is that Carnival is booking solid in the Caribbean this summer. Not surprised, kids are out of school. HAL is not booking well in Alaska and the Med (as evidenced by fire sale pricing). 

 

In order to get to 107% CCL is heavily discounting Holland America for Q3.

 

 

 

 

Discounting???

 

They have the numbers they know what the numbers will be. Except for a small amount of last minut bookings.   Keep in mind that HAL does draw a lot of families including children during the summer months to Alaska and also in Europe when families are on vacation.  

 

If the average for the fleet is 107.  The adult facing lines such as HAL and Princess should be about 101 to 102%.  While Carnival is 41%, HAL is about 9% of CCL's total capacity. Keep in mind that Princess is now the oldest demographic.  HAL, for all the complaints has been somewhat success in bringing their age demographic down a bit (from around 65 to around 60, Princess has gone up to around 65) very noticeable on both lines. You have families selecting HAL because the pools are better for port intensive Alaska vacations. Mostly port days and the kids like the indoor pools compared to the outdoor pools on Princess.

 

As far as data a good source is Cruise Market Watch.  It does not provide numbers, but it does provide market share of both revenue and passengers for the most recent year that they have data for.  It was very handy prior to Covid, Unfortunately the most recent year they have data is 2021, so not very handy.

 

I have used it in previous years to look at a ratio of % market revenue/% market passengers to get an idea how lines compare cost wise.  Though not that it is passengers not passenger days so one has to adjust for average cruise length by line.  In 2019 Princess, HAL and Celebrity was pretty close.  After adjusting for cruise length  Celebrity was about 2.8 to HALs 2.7 and Princess 2.6.  They are in the lower 2's in the 2021 data which about what one would expect with the deals in the early days of the restart.

Edited June 27, 2023 by ldtr

[Guest ldtr]

10 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Let's see how this comment ages. 

Should age just fine.  It is a seasonal trend for bookings.  It reflects the fact that the Q3 number is stll about 6% below 2019.  though the trend line is moving  pretty quickly to 2019 results.  So that projection would have Q4 about 4% lower than 2019 results for the same quarter.    If their is no growth in trend and the results is still 6% below 2019 it would come in 97 to 98%.  From an occupancy perspective Q4 is usually the worst of the year.

[BermudaBound2014]

47 minutes ago, ldtr said:

  Also keep in mind that Princess is now the oldest demographic.  HAL, for all the complaints has been somewhat success in bringing their age demographic down a bit (from around 65 to around 60, Princess has gone up to around 65) very noticeable on both lines.

 

You keep claiming this but refuse to post a source (I've inquired your source multiple times). I'm willing to believe you, but I need a source. 

 

You may want to also share your data with this author right here on Cruise Critic. I'm sure she would love your source also. The Article was published last week.  

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles/holland-america-vs-princess

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by BermudaBound2014

[Guest ldtr]

6 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

You keep claiming this but refuse to post a source (I've inquired your source multiple times). I'm willing to believe you, but I need a source. 

 

You may want to also share your data with this author right here on Cruise Critic. I'm sure she would love your source also. The Article was published last week.  

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles/holland-america-vs-princess

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will give you the same answer that I gave you last time. 

 

10 years ago that would have fit both lines.  HAL like Celebrity has been pushing to lower their age demographic, where as Princess has not.  Result is HAL has gotten younger and Princess has continued to get older.  You now see more scooters and walkers on 7 day Princess cruises than 7 day HAL cruises.  Though on both lines the numbers increase with the length of cruise.

 

With the Sun Princess may now be starting its push for more families and lowering its demographics with more family features on the Sun than on previous ships.

 

There are lots of quite a few public references to the HAL program to lower its age demographic and the impact of their age demographics.

 

For example 

 

https://www.frommers.com/macrosite/cruises/holland-america-line

 

For years, HAL was known for catering to an almost exclusively older crowd, with most passengers in their 70s on up. Today, following intense efforts to attract younger passengers, about 25% of the line's guests are under age 55 (with the average age being 57), with a few young families peppering the mix, especially in summers and during holiday weeks.

 

Their description used to have a number for Princess but they updated their description and it is now more general.

 

Fodors also talks about the infusion of families and now younger adults

 

Noted for focusing on passenger comfort, Holland America Line cruises are classic in design and style, and with an infusion of younger adults and families onboard, they remain refined without being stuffy or stodgy.

 

As I told you last time.  The hard numbers I got from a commercial industry report that my broker gave me.  It lists HAL as being a bit older than Frommers states 60 instead of 57, and lists Princess as 65. As I offered last time I can ask him for the source and the cost and forward that to you if you are interested.

Edited June 28, 2023 by ldtr

[BermudaBound2014]

1 minute ago, ldtr said:

I will give you the same answer that I gave you last time.  there are lots of references to the HAL program to lower its age demographic and the impact of their age demographics.

 

For example 

 

https://www.frommers.com/macrosite/cruises/holland-america-line

 

For years, HAL was known for catering to an almost exclusively older crowd, with most passengers in their 70s on up. Today, following intense efforts to attract younger passengers, about 25% of the line's guests are under age 55 (with the average age being 57), with a few young families peppering the mix, especially in summers and during holiday weeks.

 

Their description used to have a number for Princess but they updated their description and it is now more general.

 

Fodors also talks about the infusion of families and now younger adults

 

Noted for focusing on passenger comfort, Holland America Line cruises are classic in design and style, and with an infusion of younger adults and families onboard, they remain refined without being stuffy or stodgy.

 

As I told you last time.  The hard numbers I got from a commercial industry report that my broker gave me.  It lists HAL as being a bit older than Frommers states 60 instead of 57, and lists Princess as 65. As I offered last time I can ask him for the source and the cost and forward that to you if you are interested.

Still waiting …..

[Guest ldtr]

1 minute ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

Still waiting …..

Do you want the info for the commercial report source and cost?  If so I will contact my broker for the information.

 

The data on HAL is pretty wide spread.

Edited June 28, 2023 by ldtr

[BermudaBound2014]

Just now, ldtr said:

Do you want the info for the commercial report source and cost?

I’d prefer if you just post a snapshot of the specific data  to support your claim that Holland America demographics are younger than Princess. Easy peasy 

[Guest ldtr]

Just now, BermudaBound2014 said:

I’d prefer if you just post a snapshot of the specific data  to support your claim that Holland America demographics are younger than Princess. Easy peasy 

It is a commercial report.  It is not public domain.  Not so easy peasy.  Terms of use do not allow public distribution.  Not unusual for paid for reports.  Otherwise they would not sell very many if anyone could post the report. Again do you want the name and cost?

[BermudaBound2014]

5 minutes ago, ldtr said:

It is a commercial report.  It is not public domain.  Not so easy peasy.  Terms of use do not allow public distribution.  Not unusual for paid for reports.  Otherwise they would not sell very many if anyone could post the report. Again do you want the name and cost?

sure wth 

[Guest ldtr]

42 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

sure wth 

I will contact him tomorrow.

[cruisemom42]

There are not a lot of what I consider "good" reporters on cruise lines out there. Info from "The Points Guy" I trust more than most -- and by that I mean they make fewer errors. 

 

From a January 2023 piece, one of their reporters who covers cruising (Glenn Sloan) had this to say about the ages of Princess vs. HAL cruisers:

 

"At Princess, for instance, the average age of passengers is 57, and you see a lot of couples in their 50s, 60s and 70s on board. At Holland America, the average age of passengers is closer to 70."

Edited June 28, 2023 by cruisemom42

[cruisemom42]

31 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

From a January 2023 piece, one of their reporters who covers cruising (Glenn Sloan) had this to say about the ages of Princess vs. HAL cruisers:

 

Oops, sorry. I must be getting tired -- I forgot to include the link:

 

https://thepointsguy.com/guide/how-to-pick-cruise-line/

[HappyInVan]

13 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

When I see that this number of 95% occupancy reflects the entire CCL fleet, I am left wondering where HAL stands. Clearly some lines must be below 95% if that is the average. 

 

Given that HAL attracts fewer children than most lines, I can't imagine it is as easy for them to reach past 100% occupancy (which assumes more than 2 people in a cabin) regularly.

 

 

We'll see how it goes. Actually the recovery process is more difficult for management than the pandemic phase.

 

During the pandemic, the companies merely hunker down and do all they can to survive. Hoping that the situation will turn around, before they crash and burn.

 

During the recovery, management faces many choices and aggressive competitors. Here's an opportunity for the strongest to thin the herd and gain market share. This is the point where you can't afford to be complacent, and make a fatal mistake.

 

For HAL, the problem isn't WHEN the ships will fill. Rather, the issue is WHY the ships aren't already full at the affordable prices we've been talking about.

 

[Destiny0315]

8 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

For HAL, the problem isn't WHEN the ships will fill. Rather, the issue is WHY the ships aren't already full at the affordable prices we've been talking about.

Because those affordable prices that we all may see as former or current HAL cruisers may not seem affordable to those who may have only cruised with HAL once or twice in the past or have never cruised with HAL at all or for that matter have never even heard of HAL. Ask the average Jack or Jill on the street to name three cruise lines(or even five)and HAL ain't making the cut. Even many of those who have cruised for years would not likely think of HAL out of the gate, and even when they do their image of the line may still be fuzzy as to where they fit in the world of modern cruising.

[Ride-The-Waves]

Current cruise prices are NOT affordable in the long run.  Cruise lines, especially CCL and RCL, are still trying to capture the backside of the COVID epidemic where people stayed away from ships and much travel for fear of contacting COVID.  Created pent-up desire/demand which we see with higher than normal future bookings despite higher prices, and the higher than normal pricing of just about everything related to cruising.  RCL is charging $130-150 for three dinners at specialty restaurants.  That is just nuts. Just because one is "on vacation" doesn't mean that sanity no longer prevails.  Prices will come down - we are already seeing that with several of the mainstream lines.  

 

We cruise to visit new places, meet people from different walks of life, and enjoy ourselves.  We also enjoy returning to places of yore.  We can do that on a cruise ship or by air/land.  If cruise lines continue to what "our" business they will adjust.  Always remember that its a business and NOT a family.

[Guest ldtr]

On 6/27/2023 at 6:50 PM, BermudaBound2014 said:

sure wth 

My broker indicates that it came from a report made by a company called Grand View Research.  It was a report published in 2020 and was based upon 2019 data.  He is looking to see if they (the brokerage and the analyst that follows the cruise industry) have any updated reports that they will or can share.

 

In the mean time I have sent off a couple of letters to the authors of some recent cruise articles that mention age to see if they have some definitive sources that they are willing to share.

[Guest ldtr]

For anybody interested the 10Q is now available on Edgar.  I added Q2 numbers to my little spreadsheet.  Revenue is up almost $6 per passenger day from last quarter and now exceeds 2019 revenue numbers. On board spend is  up $4 and fares have moved up $2.  Fares for cruises occurring during the quarter still below 2019  numbers.  Expenses down $5 per passenger day with fueld down 4 and food spend per passenger day  down about 50 cents. 

 

I had expected that the drop in expense would be more with a 98% occupancy, but they did comment that it was running higher due to the timing of some expenses falling in the quarter (they specifically mentioned higher dry dock costs as a factor)

 

Per Pass Day	Revenue	Fares	Shipboard	Operating Expense	Fuel	Food
2013	198.64	149.70	46.24	136.81	28.38	12.63
2014	200.77	150.27	47.78	131.72	25.70	12.70
2015	193.96	143.19	47.98	116.61	15.42	12.11
2016	193.44	142.70	48.02	110.75	10.80	11.86
2017	200.90	148.51	49.68	120.48	14.27	11.83
2018	210.59	155.37	52.19	123.68	18.06	11.89
2019	223.04	151.06	67.81	138.26	16.73	11.60
2022	222.86	128.61	94.27	215.33	39.51	15.81
2023 Q1	219.41	142.08	77.38	163.91	26.49	15.40
2023 Q2	225.28	144.08	81.19	158.58	22.43	14.91

Edited June 29, 2023 by ldtr

[BermudaBound2014]

2 minutes ago, ldtr said:

My broker indicates that it came from a report made by a company called Grand View Research.  It was a report published in 2020 and was based upon 2019 data.  He is looking to see if they (the brokerage and the analyst that follows the cruise industry) have any updated reports that they will or can share.

 

In the mean time I have sent off a couple of letters to the authors of some recent cruise articles that mention age to see if they have some definitive sources that they are willing to share.

 

Thanks. My nephew is a broker on Wall Street (like actually on Wall Street). He'll be able to get the document. I'll bug him eventually, but as you imagine he's quite busy. In the mean time if you can find something definitive that can be published right here on CC that would be great. I suspect I can't be the only one questioning your claim that Princess is an older demographic compared to HAL.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with making sweeping claims about demographic on cruise ships is that the data is contradictory. I can not find one data set I would deem reliable to support your claim that Princess has overtaken HAL with the oldest demographics.. I can find lots of published info that directly contradicts your claim, but not one source I would consider definitive either way.

 

Until I have a hard source, I'm not inclined to believe your claim given what we do know about cruising demographics (smaller ships = older passengers, longer itineraries = older passengers, exotic offerings = older passengers). While princess does have some small ships, longer itineraries, and exotic offerings, I believe this is HAL's niche. 

 

I did a quick search and came up with these statements. Again, not a great reference I would lay my life on, but lots published that definitely paints HAL as an older demographic.

 

"Holland America attracts an older demographic who prefer a night in the lounge listening to live music to late-night parties"

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles/holland-america-vs-celebrity-cruises

 

The average age (HAL) is reportedly between 57 and 64 across the fleet. Attracting mainly couples and solo cruisers.

https://beyondcruise.com/guides/holland-america-line-ships-size-age-class

 

Holland America Line's refined atmosphere mainly attracts older travelers who can afford to pay the line's higher prices and prefer a more traditional cruise experience, complete with afternoon tea and musical performances

https://travel.usnews.com/cruises/holland-america-line-294/

 

 

 

 

Perhaps the most compelling contradictions are these two recent articles which specifically compare HAL and Princess:

 

"At Princess, for instance, the average age of passengers is 57, and you see a lot of couples in their 50s, 60s and 70s on board. At Holland America, the average age of passengers is closer to 70."

https://thepointsguy.com/guide/how-to-pick-cruise-line/

 

Generally speaking, Holland America appeals to an older demographic that prefer fine dining, live music and a subdued evening atmosphere -- though the line is trying to change its reputation by livening up its onboard offerings. Princess Cruises attracts an active crowd that is both young and young-at-heart. Cruisers often say Holland America is the line they take without their grandkids, while Princess is for the whole family.

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles/holland-america-vs-princess

 

 

. I do appreciate your efforts to support your claim. 

 

 

[Mary229]

Considering the North American market it is not surprising that most passengers are older than 50 on any line as they account for a full 50% of all North American customers.   CLIA doesn’t publish each line’s proprietary dats simply the overall industry. I think it would be hard to find  reliable cruise line-specific data as it is proprietary info.  Occasionally a line will offer a suggestion as to their market but are under no regulation required to do so 
 

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

Until I have a hard source, I'm not inclined to believe your claim given what we do know about cruising demographics (smaller ships = older passengers, longer itineraries = older passengers, exotic offerings = older passengers). While princess does have some small ships, longer itineraries, and exotic offerings, I believe this is HAL's niche. 

 

I did a quick search and came up with these statements. Again, not a great reference I would lay my life on, but lots published that definitely paints HAL as an older demographic....

 

 

Quite so. Anyone who has seen a recent Princess ship, knows that Princess is trying to emulate Carnival. Attracting the younger crowd for Fun Fun Fun. This is a photo of the Majestic Princess 144k GT, with its mega screen on an open top deck.

 

Its apparent that many working-age pax would like to join the HAL family. However, Princess etc already caters to that demographic. Fun at the Lowest Price! Nothing wrong with that. 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by HappyInVan

[Guest ldtr]

2 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Thanks. My nephew is a broker on Wall Street (like actually on Wall Street). He'll be able to get the document. I'll bug him eventually, but as you imagine he's quite busy. In the mean time if you can find something definitive that can be published right here on CC that would be great. I suspect I can't be the only one questioning your claim that Princess is an older demographic compared to HAL.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with making sweeping claims about demographic on cruise ships is that the data is contradictory. I can not find one data set I would deem reliable to support your claim that Princess has overtaken HAL with the oldest demographics.. I can find lots of published info that directly contradicts your claim, but not one source I would consider definitive either way.

 

Until I have a hard source, I'm not inclined to believe your claim given what we do know about cruising demographics (smaller ships = older passengers, longer itineraries = older passengers, exotic offerings = older passengers). While princess does have some small ships, longer itineraries, and exotic offerings, I believe this is HAL's niche. 

 

I did a quick search and came up with these statements. Again, not a great reference I would lay my life on, but lots published that definitely paints HAL as an older demographic.

 

"Holland America attracts an older demographic who prefer a night in the lounge listening to live music to late-night parties"

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles/holland-america-vs-celebrity-cruises

 

The average age (HAL) is reportedly between 57 and 64 across the fleet. Attracting mainly couples and solo cruisers.

https://beyondcruise.com/guides/holland-america-line-ships-size-age-class

 

Holland America Line's refined atmosphere mainly attracts older travelers who can afford to pay the line's higher prices and prefer a more traditional cruise experience, complete with afternoon tea and musical performances

https://travel.usnews.com/cruises/holland-america-line-294/

 

 

 

 

Perhaps the most compelling contradictions are these two recent articles which specifically compare HAL and Princess:

 

"At Princess, for instance, the average age of passengers is 57, and you see a lot of couples in their 50s, 60s and 70s on board. At Holland America, the average age of passengers is closer to 70."

https://thepointsguy.com/guide/how-to-pick-cruise-line/

 

Generally speaking, Holland America appeals to an older demographic that prefer fine dining, live music and a subdued evening atmosphere -- though the line is trying to change its reputation by livening up its onboard offerings. Princess Cruises attracts an active crowd that is both young and young-at-heart. Cruisers often say Holland America is the line they take without their grandkids, while Princess is for the whole family.

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles/holland-america-vs-princess

 

 

. I do appreciate your efforts to support your claim. 

 

 

A few years ago it was relatively easy to find references.  Then Celebrity started their youth push as they stopped giving out age data their their data dropped off of the travel sites (for example Frommers back then had all three, then Celebrity went away, then in Princess went away and now only HAL).  Note that Frommer's does still provide some detail about HAL with their 57 age average and the comment that 25% are below 55 and an average age of 57.    

 

Keep in mind that most of your quotes really do not present any figures.    Also not clear how many of them have actually based it upon numbers vs perceptions.  10 years ago the comments you are posting would have been pretty accurate.  There have clearly been changes in HAL since they implemented music walk which several travel sites have identified, even if they do not list specific ages.

 

https://beyondcruise.com/guides/holland-america-line-ships-size-age-class

The average age is reportedly between 57 and 64 across the fleet. Attracting mainly couples and solo cruisers.

 

https://www.*****.com/lines/holland_america_cruises.html

This premium line has traditionally been known for having an older clientele but has made a shift in recent years to appeal to a younger crowd by adding such features as alternative restaurants, concierge service for the higher-end accommodations, Internet cafes with Wi-Fi, spa cabins, indoor-outdoor pools and specialty bars and lounges;. With its upgraded children's programs, HAL is attracting multi-generational family groups, especially during its summer sailings to Alaska and its one-week Caribbean itineraries during school vacations.

 

https://*****/cruise-research/cruise-lines/holland-america-line/

This premium line has traditionally been known for having an older clientele but has made a shift in recent ears to encompass a more diverse group.  Holland America Line is known for mulitgenerational travel with a variety of activities and programs for all ages.

 

Princess is the line that I have spent the most time on since the restart. What I have seen over the past few years is an aging of the customer base.  Largely because little has changed.  Other lines have made changes and have tended to do a better job in attracting younger cruisers.  Princess has not so much been losing younger passengers as much as its customer base has been pretty loyal and has been aging in place.  

 

Will have to see if I can get a definitive source that is willing to actually provide information.  I have, among other places, sent a letter to the PR department of CCL to see if they are willing to share any data.  Unfortunately the recent data sources are a bit limited since they cover the earlier period of the start up with low occupancy and a definite bias towards younger.  Will be interesting next year when data for 2023 comes out.