When ‘Free at Sea’ is not Free at At Sea

[mugtech]

16 hours ago, CatBoiler said:

Yes, however those are subject to a VAT refund

https://thepointsguy.com/guide/vat-refund-how-it-works/

What a pain in the ass, the items must be in their original package, unused.  Wipes out refunds for drinks and unpackaged t-shirts.

[Asawi]

Thank you @cerireeves for your report! Much appreciated! I think you may have answered some of what I'm wondering about.

Those $0.84 probably are soft drinks, right? (So VAT on them as well. I've seen posts from other Med cruisers that it was just alcohol)
Relieved to see speciality dining is not taxed! (Checked what my planned Le Bistro would come to and it was around $90. 20% comes to $18 plus VAT on service making it around $20. Not sure I'm prepared to pay that for a "free" meal! I'm not a foodie...)

Also intersting that sea days are taxed as well. I do understand it's because it's all in EU, but still...

 

I'll be cruising out of Civitaveccia in December on a TA (so obioulsy not all EU) and it will be interesting to se how things work then.

[RocketMan275]

4 hours ago, Asawi said:

Everyone else: There has been much talk about the why there is a charge for drinks if you have FAS. Well, as I think someone mentioned briefly before, they need to ring in an amount to get the VAT calculated correctly. NCL's system the removes that amount before the charge gets to the onboard account. 

So, essentially, the cost of the drinks is included so they can calculate the VAT and then a credit is applied  to the cabin to deduct the cost of the drinks?

[SoloAlaska]

5 minutes ago, Asawi said:

Thank you @cerireeves for your report! Much appreciated! I think you may have answered some of what I'm wondering about.

Those $0.84 probably are soft drinks, right? (So VAT on them as well. I've seen posts from other Med cruisers that it was just alcohol)
Relieved to see speciality dining is not taxed! (Checked what my planned Le Bistro would come to and it was around $90. 20% comes to $18 plus VAT on service making it around $20. Not sure I'm prepared to pay that for a "free" meal! I'm not a foodie...)

Also intersting that sea days are taxed as well. I do understand it's because it's all in EU, but still...

 

I'll be cruising out of Civitaveccia in December on a TA (so obioulsy not all EU) and it will be interesting to se how things work then.

If your on the same TA as me will have to make sure the bar crawl is on a day that doesn’t have VAT.

[KeithJenner]

58 minutes ago, cerireeves said:

But we're in Italy now! 

 

Yes, but you said you are on a cruise where you are being charged for the entire cruise, even when not in port. Unless this is something very different then I take that to mean that you are on an all EU cruise, probably originating in Spain. That is why you are being charged in Italy.

 

However, a Rome to Tel Aviv cruise cannot, by definition, be an all EU cruise so any VAT charge will be made by individual ports and there is no recent history that I am aware of (including visiting the ports myself this month) of Italian or Greek ports charging the VAT.

[DCGuy64]

7 hours ago, PollyMurg said:

Yesterday we chatted to guests who were sailing on Celebrity Beyond and they haven’t had this additional charge added to their purchases.

Interesting. I'd be curious to know how much those people paid for their cruise, especially how much their drinks package cost (assuming they had one). Since VAT must be paid somehow, I suspect Celebrity pays it up front and hides the cost to the consumer by building it into the total cost of the cruise or package.

[PollyMurg]

The itinary for our cruise is Marseille, Cannes, Livorno,  Salerno, Rome and back to Marseille.

We are being charged the European French Value Added Tax previously known as European Value Added Tax on day one and two of this cruise throughout the entirety of the trip.

There are no’inconsistencies’ in what I am saying - apologies if I was unaware that I could access this website for free while onboard.

Thank you Ceri for sharing your Specialty Dining bill. That is a relief ☺️

We too were advised by a lady employee at Guest Services to cancel the prepaid gratuities to offset the additional incurred charges.

 

 

[RocketMan275]

1 minute ago, PollyMurg said:

We too were advised by a lady employee at Guest Services to cancel the prepaid gratuities to offset the additional incurred charges.

Were  you told to cancel the prepaid gratuities or were you told that cancelling the prepaid gratuities would reduce your bill?  Not the same thing.

[Asawi]

Thank you for reporting @PollyMurg

I did notice the service charge being 22/day. That means a 10% VAT on that too, doesn't it? Odd! Especially if you already paid it! Must be a lot of confused passenger on Epic right now!

 

[graphicguy]

I am even more confused.

 

So, with the FAS, drinks are charged, you get a receipt for them, you sign for them and they are later credited back?  I dunno?

 

Customer Service lines are always long.  Try going when in port and more guests are off the ship.

 

It’s been years since I had a receipt with FAS.  So, that’s confusing.  Further, you are only supposed to be charged for the difference between the $15 limit for FAS and whatever the charge is for drinks over that amount.  I believe you even get a discount on that, too.

 

Someone at guest service RECOMMENDED canceling the service charges that go to ALL crew?  

 

Again, go to Customer Service and get this squared away.  If you have FAS, something “hinky” is going on with your account.  This makes no sense.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by graphicguy

[Girr]

Norwegian Cruise Line Warns Guests of Additional Charges (cruisehive.com)

 

I believe it's UK cruisers who received the NCL letter; however, this article details the letter and results.  Please note it says VAT will be applied to beverage AND dining packages.

 

During our July Med cruise, we were taxed the entire cruise even though we started in Rome - go figure.  Also, we did not receive a $50 credit.  

 

As to removing the prepaid gratuities, please don't.  As you'll read in the article the VAT is being applied by Spain (they want cruisers to pay the same taxes as on-shore visitors) - we shouldn't take money from the hard working team that takes such good care of us while cruising.  

[Girr]

12 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

 

So, with the FAS, drinks are charged, you get a receipt for them, you sign for them and they are later credited back?  I dunno?

 

Someone at guest service RECOMMENDED canceling the service charges that go to ALL crew?  

With FAS they just swipe your card and no receipt issued and no signature.  (You could request a receipt I believe).

 

If someone at guest service recommended canceling the service charges you can be sure they don't receive a portion of them.  This is so wrong.  Spain has levied VAT and has nothing to do with the crew.  Plus, you can't remove the 20% service charge paid up front for beverage taxes, only the daily gratuities.  The 20% goes to bar personnel, so they'd still be receiving that money.  While room attendants, laundry, wait staff would be significantly negatively impacted.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Girr

[graphicguy]

VAT refund….having traveled a lot for business before I retired, I used the VAT refund a lot.  If I bought higher ticket items like electronics and even clothes, the VAT refund was usually significant.

 

However, the VAT refund does not apply to food or drink.

[RD64]

Yes - the VAT is being applied by Spain (or whatever European country). If you have an NCL drink package, it is NCL’s choice as to whether or not they wish to absorb the VAT. 
 

In Alaska - the state or municipal tax was applied on beverage purchases - I had the beverage package. Our receipts showed the price of the beverage, the gratuity, and the tax on separate lines. Although we were technically charged, it did not appear as a folio charge. Holland America I believe paid the amount of the tax.

[Asawi]

OK, more confudsion...

About the  cancelling of DSC: I could be wrong here, but I suspect the reason the customer service person mentioned cancelling that charge would have to do with not being charged twice. As can be seen on OP's origonal post the service charge+10% is being charged onboard EVEN THOUGH they have already prepaid them.  I think the suggestion is about getting back the PREPAID amount while the amount added onboard stays.

[Girr]

10 minutes ago, Asawi said:

OK, more confudsion...

About the  cancelling of DSC: I could be wrong here, but I suspect the reason the customer service person mentioned cancelling that charge would have to do with not being charged twice. As can be seen on OP's origonal post the service charge+10% is being charged onboard EVEN THOUGH they have already prepaid them.  I think the suggestion is about getting back the PREPAID amount while the amount added onboard stays.

If you go back and look at the receipt OP posted it's appears they don't have FAS.  Assumption is made based on the fact there's a 20% gratuity first, then the VAT at 20%, then VAT at 10%.  Now, this doesn't make sense.  It should be 10% based on what we're being told.

 

Please don't confuse the DSC and VAT - both are very different and going two different entities.  

Edited September 28, 2023 by Girr

[graphicguy]

12 minutes ago, Asawi said:

OK, more confudsion...

About the  cancelling of DSC: I could be wrong here, but I suspect the reason the customer service person mentioned cancelling that charge would have to do with not being charged twice. As can be seen on OP's origonal post the service charge+10% is being charged onboard EVEN THOUGH they have already prepaid them.  I think the suggestion is about getting back the PREPAID amount while the amount added onboard stays.

DSC is for the entire crew who service you....the cabin steward, the busboy, etc.  I'm at a loss why a crew would try to disenfranchise their co-workers by suggesting the OP remove the DSC.

 

If the OP "pre-paid" the DSC, and was charged the DSC anyway, that's yet another reason to go to Customer Service.

 

The OP's account is either really, really, really screwed up, or s/he's not getting ANY credit for having FAS.  

 

Again, this confuses me!

Edited September 28, 2023 by graphicguy

[graphicguy]

6 minutes ago, Girr said:

If you've read from the beginning of this thread, we believe the OP doesn't have FAS - with FAS you're not given a receipt.  

 

DSC and VAT should not be confused - both are very different and going two different entities.  

Beat me to it.

 

I know there was some discussion about buying drinks with FAS, and since it was purchased at booking the fare (presumably billed in Florida), there would be no VAT charged.  Some even reported that being the case.

 

But, as you say, if you are buying drinks a la carte, you are purchasing them subject to tax laws in whatever country you happen to be ported.  As such, you're subject to the VAT.

 

To me, that's the only logical explanation.

 

If none of that is true, and the OP does indeed have FAS, and is getting receipts (which is the first sign they don't have FAS), something's messed up on their account and they need to get it rectified by Customer Service and to do so before they leave the ship.  

 

Once they disembark after the cruise, it will be too late.

[Asawi]

12 minutes ago, Girr said:

If you go back and look at the receipt OP posted it's appears they don't have FAS.  Assumption is made based on the fact there's a 20% gratuity first, then the VAT at 20%, then VAT at 10%.  Now, this doesn't make sense.  It should be 10% based on what we're being told.

If you read the posts by the OP it's clear the they DO have FAS. So they are NOT charged for the drinks on their onboard account. Only the VAT. They do however get a receipt at every purchase where the drink does have a price so the VAT can be calculated. 

This is a new thing. It's the first time VAT is charged for a France departure. So people can't compare with what they have or have not run into before. (For example the receipt at every purchase.)

And the 10% that has been talked about before is the SPAIN tax. This is FRANCE. VAT in France is 20% on restaurant purchases.

[PATRLR]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

So, with the FAS, drinks are charged, you get a receipt for them, you sign for them and they are later credited back?

It sounds like that's what happens.  

I'm not sure what I would do if they asked me to sign such a slip.  No way I'd sign it the way it is, at the very least I'd note on it that I shouldn't be charged for the drinks.

The whole thing stinks of Amateur Hour.  Almost like it was a last-minute suggestion by the bean counters as another way to bump up that onboard spend and IT hasn't had a chance to update the systems. SMH.

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by PATRLR

[Stevio]

Spanish waters tax rules have been around for years, as have the Italian. French do not appear to have changed their maritime VAT rules since 2021...

 

I was on Celebrity Silhouette last week and were warned of onboard ship purchases incurring VAT in both Spanish & Italian ports and waters. We sailed French waters at Marcais with no additional taxation whatsoever.

And all drinks ordered under the pre paid packages in whatever waters were received free of any extra taxation charges.

 

All these "local taxes" appear to have only one thing in common... They are applied only to NCL ships with regard to their Free at Sea deals. No other cruise lines charge taxes on pre paid packages.

[PATRLR]

@PollyMurg Can you help to understand something.  You say you have the Free At Sea which implies you got a drink package with the Free At Seas which then implies you should not have to pay for your drinks.  you shouldn't even get a recept, they scan your card, mix your drink hand it over and you go on your way.  

So why do you have pictures of receipts showing that you are being charged for your drinks?

[graphicguy]

6 minutes ago, Stevio said:

Spanish waters tax rules have been around for years, as have the Italian. French do not appear to have changed their maritime VAT rules since 2021...

 

I was on Celebrity Silhouette last week and were warned of onboard ship purchases incurring VAT in both Spanish & Italian ports and waters. We sailed French waters at Marcais with no additional taxation whatsoever.

And all drinks ordered under the pre paid packages in whatever waters were received free of any extra taxation charges.

 

All these "local taxes" appear to have only one thing in common... They are applied only to NCL ships with regard to their Free at Sea deals. No other cruise lines charge taxes on pre paid packages.

Probably a little misleading.  Yes, NCL does break out Europe's VAT as a separate line item.

 

But, if the rest, like Royal, Celebrity, etc are including it, that explains why their drink packages cost so much more.

 

Moreover, your experience shows if you "pre-pay" for your drinks (which is essentially what FAS does) meaning you bought the package prior to sailing in European waters, taxes were "included".

Edited September 28, 2023 by graphicguy

[DCGuy64]

1 minute ago, graphicguy said:

Probably a little misleading.  Yes, NCL does break out Europe's VAT as a separate line item.

 

But, if the rest, like Royal, Celebrity, etc are including it, that explains why their drink packages cost so much more.

Exactly. Whenever people say "why is it only NCL" or "no other cruise line is doing this," 3 possibilities spring to mind:

1. The other cruise lines aren't paying VAT which means they're breaking the law

2. The other cruise lines ARE paying VAT and hiding it within the price you pay for the cruise

3. The other cruise lines are paying VAT and collecting it from passengers, but we're not hearing about it.

But no way on God's green earth can you tell me other lines aren't subject to VAT. If one has to pay it, they all do.

[graphicguy]

18 minutes ago, Asawi said:

If you read the posts by the OP it's clear the they DO have FAS. So they are NOT charged for the drinks on their onboard account. Only the VAT. They do however get a receipt at every purchase where the drink does have a price so the VAT can be calculated. 

This is a new thing. It's the first time VAT is charged for a France departure. So people can't compare with what they have or have not run into before. (For example the receipt at every purchase.)

And the 10% that has been talked about before is the SPAIN tax. This is FRANCE. VAT in France is 20% on restaurant purchases.

Beg to differ on that one...

 

In the post where the OP shows the receipt for the drinks (which is the first indication they do not have FAS, given they were issued a receipt), it clearly shows they were changed for 2 drinks @ $11/ea.  They were also charged $4.40 and 44¢ respectively for taxes.  The total charge on the receipt was $31.24.

 

If they had FAS, there would have been no charge for the drinks.  

 

Not buying the idea that they are charged and then supposed to get a credit for drinks.  I've sailed NCL a lot, both with FAS and without FAS.  I've never seen that before....ever.