Gratuities Are Going Up Again, Effective 11.11.2023

[not-enough-cruising]

15 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

In your post I originally quoted you said:

 

"The crew signed a contract for a guaranteed minimum.  If they weren’t happy with that sum, they should not have signed the contract.  
No one should sign a contract “hoping” for discretionary income."

 

My point since the beginning is that they clearly sign on expecting to make a good deal more than the guaranteed minimum. The minimum itself is not necessarily competitive for a job requiring working long shifts for 7 days a week, 6 month contracts overseas, away from families and sleeping in a small windowless room.

 

Good for you that you tip your steward. But why do you tip them if you think the guaranteed minimum is enough?

Your perception of the entire argument is sadly lacking.  
 

I tip for service above and beyond expectations.  No one behind the scenes does anything above or beyond for me. If the room

steward just comes in once  a day and makes the bed and empties the trash I won’t tip them either. 
 

I stand behind my statement, NEVER sign a contract expecting more than why is spelled out. 

[mek]

4 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Regardless, you are ultimately tipping employees you don't see either way. Either way they choose these jobs expecting (not "hoping") to make a fairly significant chunk of their money from tips. The minimum salary is not competitive in either scenario until tips are factored in. Like it or not, and I don't like it either. And I'm excepting the rare cases of restaurants in the US that have opted out of tipping and either make it up with higher menu prices or a service charge that actually goes to employees, like how some cruise lines include gratuities in the fare.

True, behind the scenes workers may or may not get a cut of my servers tips, but that is something I'm totally uninvolved in unlike cruise lines which specifically state that part of the auto tip goes to those people.

As I previously mentioned, at Panera I do not tip because it is pretty much a self-serve restaurant although there are people repairing my food, washing dishes etc.  I'm not sure why I should feel differently  at a full service restaurant about those workers.

 

[fizzywm]

13 minutes ago, not-enough-cruising said:

Your perception of the entire argument is sadly lacking.  
 

I tip for service above and beyond expectations.  No one behind the scenes does anything above or beyond for me. If the room

steward just comes in once  a day and makes the bed and empties the trash I won’t tip them either. 
 

I stand behind my statement, NEVER sign a contract expecting more than why is spelled out. 

Since you stand behind your statement, I'll move on assuming you don't tip land based restaurant servers either, unless they really wow you. After all, they shouldn't sign on to make minimum wage and expect more than that.

[RyderJ201]

2 hours ago, fizzywm said:

The same way servers and dishwashers in US land-based restaurants make a guaranteed wage that isn't very competitive until tips or tip share is added in. People don't work in these positions "hoping" for extra money, they work with an expectation of an average salary that includes some level of tips on top of the guarantee.

I have NEVER tipped out the dishwasher in any land based restaurant I've ever worked in. Ever. Contact one popular chain restaurant and confirm this, then I will call and do the same. 

[fizzywm]

3 minutes ago, RyderJ201 said:

I have NEVER tipped out the dishwasher in any land based restaurant I've ever worked in. Ever. Contact one popular chain restaurant and confirm this, then I will call and do the same. 

Sometimes the dishwashers don't get tipped out (it depends). If they aren't then they are certainly paid higher than servers who rely on tips. None of this changes my point that people who sign on to tipped positions don't do it for the guaranteed base pay. They rely on tips to make competitive wages.

[RyderJ201]

3 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Sometimes the dishwashers don't get tipped out (it depends). If they aren't then they are certainly paid higher than servers who rely on tips. None of this changes my point that people who sign on to tipped positions don't do it for the guaranteed base pay. They rely on tips to make competitive wages.

And tipping the servers cash is fine with me. But not tipping automatic gratuities should have nothing to do with worrying about back of house "behind the scenes" people. There salary is not my business, concern, or problem. And I refuse to let Royal make it my problem. I tip my servers and my room attendant. "Behind the scenes" people get paid. And if they don't, they should move on. 

But truly tipping out kitchen staff is a lame duck argument around here tried by many. It doesn't happen very often except maybe mom and pop locations anymore. 

[Pink.paper.heart]

3 hours ago, fizzywm said:

I don't really get the argument I've seen a few times in this thread that tips shouldn't be paid prior to services rendered. You have to go out of your way to prepay gratuities by checking the box when you book or calling afterwards. Otherwise they are billed at the end of your cruise because they are added to the onboard charges. It's not that I disagree with the concept of not paying ahead, but if you don't want to pre-pay, then it's easy not to.

 

I also don't get the argument that people shouldn't be paying for back of house positions. Land based restaurants also include a tip out to positions like the dishwasher, bus boys, etc. I have to wonder why people feel it's different on a ship.

 

Do you apply this same logic to land-based restaurants and other tipped jobs on land? Nobody would be signing up to wait tables for the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour or the state minimum wages which can be as low as $8.75. They do it because tips make up the difference. It's not about "hoping" but about a reasonable expectation and indeed often what is advertised as the average pay for those positions. Likewise, the base/guaranteed pay on cruise ships is not what gets the employees to sign on to multiple contracts.

 

SHOULD it be this way? No, I don't think so, and I support the idea of the tips being built into the fare price just like how some restaurants are now opting out of the tip system and paying their employees a decent hourly rate and covering healthcare etc. But until things change, let's be realistic: removing tips isn't going to hurt the employers, just the employees. Wouldn't it be better to suggest these changes to Royal Caribbean, or instead choose to cruise with a line where gratuities are built in to the fare? I can only speak for myself and say for me those lines are unaffordable even factoring in the additional cost of the auto grats + cash tips on RCCL.

 

I can respect those in this thread that still pay the amount of the auto grats in cash instead, but that's still taking away pay from those they can't tip in cash in the "other" positions–just like you would if you stiffed your server in a land based restaurant.

My apologies but what do you mean by federal minimum wage for hospitality staff? You are referring to USA yes? The wage you have quoted doesn't apply in my country (Australia). Majority of countries outside USA tip after receiving a good service. No such thing as prepaid. 

 

I have booked recently for a voyage to New Zealand in 2024 and no where on the website did it allow me to 'tick the box' for auto gratuitites. In fact, by not actually finding it on the FAQ, we would have assumed that gratuities have already been added into the final cruise price. This is further proven by another 2 couples who have booked separately from me but are also going on the same voyage. 

[RyderJ201]

1 minute ago, Pink.paper.heart said:

My apologies but what do you mean by federal minimum wage for hospitality staff? You are referring to USA yes? The wage you have quoted doesn't apply in my country (Australia). Majority of countries outside USA tip after receiving a good service. No such thing as prepaid. 

 

I have booked recently for a voyage to New Zealand in 2024 and no where on the website did it allow me to 'tick the box' for auto gratuitites. In fact, by not actually finding it on the FAQ, we would have assumed that gratuities have already been added into the final cruise price. This is further proven by another 2 couples who have booked separately from me but are also going on the same voyage. 

In the US a waiter can get paid as little as $2.00 per hour and the rest is tips. This varies by state. Some as low as $2 per hour some as high as $14. But most are low. However, most prefer this system because they can make $20 to $60 on average per hour in tips. Depending on how many tables per hour, time of day, etc. Most make 20% tip off total of bill. Some more, some less. But 20% is customary and very very few people tip less. 

[fizzywm]

10 minutes ago, RyderJ201 said:

And tipping the servers cash is fine with me. But not tipping automatic gratuities should have nothing to do with worrying about back of house "behind the scenes" people. There salary is not my business, concern, or problem. And I refuse to let Royal make it my problem. I tip my servers and my room attendant. "Behind the scenes" people get paid. And if they don't, they should move on. 

But truly tipping out kitchen staff is a lame duck argument around here tried by many. It doesn't happen very often except maybe mom and pop locations anymore. 

Whether you choose to worry about it is up to you. But the fact remains you are lowering their pay by removing gratuities. That's just how it has worked ever since those positions were included in auto grats. And since the majority of passengers do tip them, that extra pay is clearly factored into their calculations when they sign on to a contract – just as servers in a restaurant don't sign on for their state's minimum wage but for the tipped amount.

 

9 minutes ago, Pink.paper.heart said:

My apologies but what do you mean by federal minimum wage for hospitality staff? You are referring to USA yes? The wage you have quoted doesn't apply in my country (Australia). Majority of countries outside USA tip after receiving a good service. No such thing as prepaid. 

 

I have booked recently for a voyage to New Zealand in 2024 and no where on the website did it allow me to 'tick the box' for auto gratuitites. In fact, by not actually finding it on the FAQ, we would have assumed that gratuities have already been added into the final cruise price. This is further proven by another 2 couples who have booked separately from me but are also going on the same voyage. 

Yes I was referring to US minimum wage. In restaurants here most servers start below the standard state minimum wage, as low as $2-3 per hour. After tips they are guaranteed to make at least state minimum wage which can be as low as $8 per hour. If they don't make much in tips the employer covers the difference between the $2-3 and the $8. Most servers would not work if they were only going to make $8 per hour, analogous to the minimum contract rate for tipped cruise employees.

 

And yes you cannot opt out of gratuities on the website at booking time. You can opt to prepay gratuities at the time of booking, but if you don't, they are applied to your daily charges on board which you will pay at the end. To opt out of gratuities entirely you have to visit guest services on board. The total gratuities may or may not be factored into the final price you see online depending on the law in Australia (I am not familiar). For us in the US, if you don't prepay when booking, there is still a notice that gratuities will be charged to your onboard account. https://www.royalcaribbean.com/aus/en/faq/questions/onboard-service-gratuity-expense

Edited November 10, 2023 by fizzywm

[RyderJ201]

3 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Whether you choose to worry about it is up to you. But the fact remains you are lowering their pay by removing gratuities. That's just how it has worked ever since those positions were included in auto grats. And since the majority of passengers do tip them, that extra pay is clearly factored into their calculations when they sign on to a contract – just as servers in a restaurant don't sign on for their state's minimum wage but for the tipped amount.

 

Yes I was referring to US minimum wage. In restaurants here most servers start below the standard state minimum wage, as low as $2-3 per hour. After tips they are guaranteed to make at least state minimum wage which can be as low as $8 per hour. If they don't make much in tips the employer covers the difference between the $2-3 and the $8. Most servers would not work if they were only going to make $8 per hour, analogous to the minimum contract rate for tipped cruise employees.

 

And yes you cannot opt out of gratuities on the website at booking time. You can opt to prepay gratuities at the time of booking, but if you don't, they are applied to your daily charges on board which you will pay at the end. To opt out of gratuities entirely you have to visit guest services on board. The total gratuities may or may not be factored into the final price you see online. For us in the US if you don't prepay, there is still a notice that gratuities will be charged to your onboard account.

Again, there pay is not my problem. I literally could not care less. 

And 15 to 20% of all passengers remove the automatic gratuities and that's factored into everyone's figures and understood before they sign on. You cannot guarantee someone there tips. You can only give estimates based on the trends you have seen. And a percentage removing automatic gratuities has always been a factor. 

[fizzywm]

Just now, RyderJ201 said:

Again, there pay is not my problem. I literally could not care less. 

And 15 to 20% of all passengers remove the automatic gratuities and that's factored into everyone's figures and understood before they sign on. You cannot guarantee someone there tips. You can only give estimates based on the trends you have seen. And a percentage removing automatic gratuities has always been a factor. 

So then you agree with my original point all along which was that tips are clearly a factor for these employees, not just the minimum pay, since the majority of passengers are still tipping.

[RyderJ201]

31 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

So then you agree with my original point all along which was that tips are clearly a factor for these employees, not just the minimum pay, since the majority of passengers are still tipping.

It's a fluctuating bonus for them week to week. But in no means be counted on as a given. Do agree with me that people who opt out of the automatic gratuities are also a factor?

[fizzywm]

18 minutes ago, RyderJ201 said:

It's a fluctuating bonus for them week to week. But in no means be counted on as a given. Do agree with me that people who opt out of the automatic gratuities are also a factor?

Yes, of course. As I said before, when people remove the auto gratuities they are taking away pay from these positions.

Do you think restaurant servers in the US count on every single person tipping as a given? No, but they are expecting enough tips to make the pay competitive–otherwise they wouldn't be waiting tables to make less money than they make at Walmart. It is the same situation with the cruise ships. Clearly the minimum guaranteed salary is not where the bulk of this money comes from.

I just saw a post in another thread from a former RCCL worker who said when the ships are drydocked, staff are making "maybe a quarter of their usual take home pay" due to no passengers on board meaning no tipping. That further proves my point. They are expecting, with good reason, a much higher amount, even if they aren't counting on it as a given or expecting exactly the same amount every week. I think they all know from day 1 some people remove their tips but most don't. I don't know how many times I can restate this or why it is being read in bad faith.

[RyderJ201]

23 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Yes, of course. As I said before, when people remove the auto gratuities they are taking away pay from these positions.

Do you think restaurant servers in the US count on every single person tipping as a given? No, but they are expecting enough tips to make the pay competitive–otherwise they wouldn't be waiting tables to make less money than they make at Walmart. It is the same situation with the cruise ships. Clearly the minimum guaranteed salary is not where the bulk of this money comes from.

I just saw a post in another thread from a former RCCL worker who said when the ships are drydocked, staff are making "maybe a quarter of their usual take home pay" due to no passengers on board meaning no tipping. That further proves my point. They are expecting, with good reason, a much higher amount, even if they aren't counting on it as a given or expecting exactly the same amount every week. I think they all know from day 1 some people remove their tips but most don't. I don't know how many times I can restate this or why it is being read in bad faith.

No bad faith.

They expect from some, not all. And that's what they get.

I don't believe in participating in a business getting away with not paying it's employees and trying to dump that responsibility on me. If you make my bed, serv my food, carry my bags etc I tip you. To concern yourself with the salary of all on board is just unfair to the customer. The folks who wash the sheets in a hotel are paid by the hotel. Not customer tips. Unlike a hotel, cruise lines get away with murder. Automatic gratuities is a scam to make the customers pay the salaries. I think being part of it is foolish. I cannot and will not be responsible for the entire staffs financial situation. What bothers me the most is when people acknowledge this is cruise lines not paying out like say a hotel has to, but yet try to guilt or shame people into participating in it. 

[fizzywm]

4 minutes ago, RyderJ201 said:

To concern yourself with the salary of all on board is just unfair to the customer.

…

I cannot and will not be responsible for the entire staffs financial situation. What bothers me the most is when people acknowledge this is cruise lines not paying out like say a hotel has to, but yet try to guilt or shame people into participating in it. 

This is what I mean by bad faith. I haven’t seen anyone here saying anyone should be concerned with the salary of every single staff member on board. It seems like everyone has put that on the cruise line and rightly so.

 

Acknowledging that removing auto gratuities is removing pay for some positions is simply acknowledging the reality of the current system. Same with pointing out that the base salary for some positions is not very competitive without these tips.

 

I keep getting this line about shaming in response to my posts. I don’t understand who that’s directed to. I believe calling people foolish for not removing gratuities is shaming though. I’m not going to lose any sleep over it either way.

[RyderJ201]

1 minute ago, fizzywm said:

This is what I mean by bad faith. I haven’t seen anyone here saying anyone should be concerned with the salary of every single staff member on board. It seems like everyone has put that on the cruise line and rightly so.

 

Acknowledging that removing auto gratuities is removing pay for some positions is simply acknowledging the reality of the current system. Same with pointing out that the base salary for some positions is not very competitive without these tips.

 

I keep getting this line about shaming in response to my posts. I don’t understand who that’s directed to. I believe calling people foolish for not removing gratuities is shaming though. I’m not going to lose any sleep over it either way.

If you haven't seen anyone saying people who remove automatic gratuities should be concerned with the "behind the scenes" people, then you really haven't been paying attention. That's the first, second, and third argument about removing them. 

 

And I do not acknowledge removing automatic gratuities is removing pay. It's removing gratuities. When they start calling it your share of the crews salary we can revisit it. 

[fizzywm]

16 minutes ago, RyderJ201 said:

If you haven't seen anyone saying people who remove automatic gratuities should be concerned with the "behind the scenes" people, then you really haven't been paying attention. That's the first, second, and third argument about removing them. 

 

And I do not acknowledge removing automatic gratuities is removing pay. It's removing gratuities. When they start calling it your share of the crews salary we can revisit it. 

They are clearly talking about the behind the scenes people who already receive tips. That is far from “the salary of all on board”.

 

the auto gratuities are part of their pay the same way restaurant employees count on tips as part of their pay. They shouldn’t be, but they are.

Edited November 10, 2023 by fizzywm

[RyderJ201]

3 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

They are clearly talking about the behind the scenes people who already receive tips. That is far from “the salary of all on board”.

If it's part of there salary, then I dare them to call it that. I know what it is. I'm not stupid. It's a word game to them (and apparently you). It's not about what's it's called in the end. It's about me paying salaries the business should. No other place like a restaurant or hotel do you tip "behind the scenes" people. It's a scam to save them money and us spend more. I won't. Again, make my bed, serv my meals, carry my bags and I tip. And tip well. Last cruise 2 adults, inside cabin, room attendant got $220 for a 7 night trip. But to participate in paying a share of the crews salary and calling it gratuities, No. It's not my job to pay a portion of salary to all.

[RyderJ201]

16 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

They are clearly talking about the behind the scenes people who already receive tips. That is far from “the salary of all on board”.

"All" or 50% of crew. 75% of crew. Whatever. Still too many people that I have no contact with. 

[fizzywm]

5 minutes ago, RyderJ201 said:

If it's part of there salary, then I dare them to call it that. I know what it is. I'm not stupid. It's a word game to them (and apparently you). It's not about what's it's called in the end. It's about me paying salaries the business should. No other place like a restaurant or hotel do you tip "behind the scenes" people. It's a scam to save them money and us spend more. I won't. Again, make my bed, serv my meals, carry my bags and I tip. And tip well. Last cruise 2 adults, inside cabin, room attendant got $220 for a 7 night trip. But to participate in paying a share of the crews salary and calling it gratuities, No. It's not my job to pay a portion of salary to all.

Again you dishonestly use the word ALL as though anyone here is saying that ALL staff should receive gratuities. Talk about word games. I haven’t seen anyone saying the captains, entertainers, insert any of 100 other positions should receive gratuities. I think most everyone here is in agreement that it would be better if the cruise line paid non customer facing staff directly. It doesn’t change the fact that removing auto grats removes pay certain parts of the crew count on.

Edited November 10, 2023 by fizzywm

[Mick B]

Hi,

Sorry I didn't state I was from the UK. I thought my details showed up at the left hand side of my post with Nottingham UK. Sorry if they don't.

 

Yes, I am from the UK, always use a TA and did believe that paying pre-paid grats was charged at a slightly lower rate than auto grats once on board. I never really checked if this had changed and it probably has, and if thats the case then I am sorry for my error. It is never my intention to post false information or mislead anyone. My aim is always to help anyone who needs help where I can from what I have witnessed before..

 

Also, yes I was referring to pre-paid and not auto grats. I prefer to pay upfront for two reasons, firstly, after final payment my holiday is paid. Import to me because if things go south financially later, I still get my holiday, secondly, so the staff get their grats and I am happy that they do.

Lastly, due to UK rules, on European cruises, we have to pay pre-paid grats if we want My Time Dinning.

I am aware I cannot remove the pre-paid grats, but I have never felt the need to do so. Yes money is tight, but I carefully choose a cruise that I can afford to pay in full in the first place.

 

BTW in the past on the rare occasion when we have not been happy with something like the condition of the cabin, rather than demand a refund of gratuities, we have simply accepted a move to a similar or better cabin, not sure if thats now still possible though!

Again, back in 2019 on the Anthem out of Bayonne, we had very bad service in one of the MDRs and rather than demand a refund of grats, we simply had the staff in question given a right telling off - oh and on our 2 sailings on this ship afterwards, service was improved!

 

Removing grats removes the tips from staff that have done well too, which I do not think is right or fair. If someone has not performed their duty and it has impacted you then a complaint to guest services or the head waiter etc would be a fairer course of action.

 

Now if I want to give an employee or employees an envelope with some cash for outstanding service, then that is my choice. If I don't feel that anyone has done anything special then they still should have received my pre-paid grats, which I have no issue with.

 

Mick.

[RyderJ201]

11 minutes ago, fizzywm said:

Again you dishonestly use the word ALL as though anyone here is saying that ALL staff should receive gratuities. Talk about word games. I haven’t seen anyone saying the captains, entertainers, insert any of 100 other positions should receive gratuities. I think most everyone here is in agreement that it would be better if the cruise line paid non customer facing staff directly. It doesn’t change the fact that removing auto grats removes pay certain parts of the crew count on.

Like I said All, 50%, whatever. No dishonest use. Just shorter to type than x amount of %. A large number of. What's the difference if it's all or 2000 out of 3000? It's still way more than should be on my plate. 

The fact is what removing automatic gratuities effects is not my problem. Don't count on my money. I never agreed to it. Again, I don't care about the financial implications of automatic gratuities on behind the scenes people. I can't care. It's not my job to fix the problems of the world. I do what I feel is my part. 

Its a shame so many are brainwashed into feeling it's there responsibility to make up for what the cruise lines save as profit, that should be payroll.

[RyderJ201]

6 minutes ago, Mick B said:

Hi,

Sorry I didn't state I was from the UK. I thought my details showed up at the left hand side of my post with Nottingham UK. Sorry if they don't.

 

Yes, I am from the UK, always use a TA and did believe that paying pre-paid grats was charged at a slightly lower rate than auto grats once on board. I never really checked if this had changed and it probably has, and if thats the case then I am sorry for my error. It is never my intention to post false information or mislead anyone. My aim is always to help anyone who needs help where I can from what I have witnessed before..

 

Also, yes I was referring to pre-paid and not auto grats. I prefer to pay upfront for two reasons, firstly, after final payment my holiday is paid. Import to me because if things go south financially later, I still get my holiday, secondly, so the staff get their grats and I am happy that they do.

Lastly, due to UK rules, on European cruises, we have to pay pre-paid grats if we want My Time Dinning.

I am aware I cannot remove the pre-paid grats, but I have never felt the need to do so. Yes money is tight, but I carefully choose a cruise that I can afford to pay in full in the first place.

 

BTW in the past on the rare occasion when we have not been happy with something like the condition of the cabin, rather than demand a refund of gratuities, we have simply accepted a move to a similar or better cabin, not sure if thats now still possible though!

Again, back in 2019 on the Anthem out of Bayonne, we had very bad service in one of the MDRs and rather than demand a refund of grats, we simply had the staff in question given a right telling off - oh and on our 2 sailings on this ship afterwards, service was improved!

 

Removing grats removes the tips from staff that have done well too, which I do not think is right or fair. If someone has not performed their duty and it has impacted you then a complaint to guest services or the head waiter etc would be a fairer course of action.

 

Now if I want to give an employee or employees an envelope with some cash for outstanding service, then that is my choice. If I don't feel that anyone has done anything special then they still should have received my pre-paid grats, which I have no issue with.

 

Mick.

And I don't believe it's fair to expect the customer to tip a percentage to staff they never see. That's not the custom anywhere else. Everywhere else you only tip those who directly provide you with a service. 

 

Everyone mentions the crew in the back doing a good job. What about the one's who do a rotten job? They get an equal cut too. I'm sure some are great. Just as I'm sure some stink. But we ever talk about them. We don't know who's done what. Why? We never see these people. Is it fair that waiters get tips, but people washing sheets in hotels don’t? A gratuity is a tip for good service. People behind the scenes do a job, not provide a service. And jobs come with wages. That's where a percentage of passage charged to customers should go. 

[travelberlin]

4 hours ago, fizzywm said:

None of this changes my point that people who sign on to tipped positions don't do it for the guaranteed base pay. They rely on tips to make competitive wages.

But this is exactly wrong: Expecting /demanding tips to make a competitive wage. Those are responsibility of the employers and not of the guests.

[bretts173]

24 minutes ago, travelberlin said:

But this is exactly wrong: Expecting /demanding tips to make a competitive wage. Those are responsibility of the employers and not of the guests.

Hard to change history, Americans have been tipping and providing a decent wage this way since the 1800's.