Questions for recent Princess cruisers

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, Titanfan22 said:

If there are so many people that are concerned with what others are doing with their gratuity, I’m sure you can voluntarily add more to the pooled tips to offset your concerns.  

 

To be fair, we are all responding to comments on a forum.  Someone shares early in the thread that they pull or reduce tips, it becomes a snowball.   

[Bgwest]

7 hours ago, Titanfan22 said:

So they are expected to take a lesser wage because tips are expected and considered part of their compensation.  So if the value of the steward position is $30,000 and the cruise line has all of this great data to know each steward averages $10,000 annually in gratuity, they can pay him $20,000 and feel they are being fair.  And maybe they will knock in a $2000 bonus, yeah!  In my world, the employee earns $30,000 because that is what the job is worth, and the $10,000 is extra and makes a difference in his life so he nets $40,000 which makes all of the going above and beyond well worth it.  (Just throwing these numbers out for simplicity) 

 

Thanks all for the weekend entertainment.  And no, I did not tip the chipotle cashier when she took my order.  That is soon to be the next expected practice. 

 

 

What a beautifully succinct summary of the entire tipping nightmare that we Americans have had such a hand in creating. 

 

The cruise lines have figured out a way to shift part of their payment obligation to their employees in a way that spawns "Tipping Shame" from those so inclined to participate in this sham toward those who choose not to participate. 

 

If one thinks about it, it's really a pretty ingenious scam they've come up with. 

[Guest Snaxmuppet]

6 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

To be fair, we are all responding to comments on a forum.  Someone shares early in the thread that they pull or reduce tips, it becomes a snowball.   

It does. But it might be a boring subject to many but it is an important subject IMO. It strikes to the very heart of how cruise lines charge and it also strikes at the very concept of what a tip, or gratuity, is to each of us.

 

To most Brits it is an extra payment for service over what is expected. We expect employees to be paid the going wage for the job and if they do anything over and above what the job normally entails, or if they do it particularly well, then most Brits I know would offer an extra payment by way of a tip. On the other hand, in the USA people do not get paid the going rate for the job if they are in a job that tracts tips and so it is expected to tip just for people doing their normal job as it makes up their wages to a sensible wage for the job. It is a very different business approach and a very different set of social rules for the customer.

 

In each of their own environments in isolation the system works as everyone knows what is expected but the problems arise in an international setting such as a cruise line where the social expectations vary.

 

I prefer the British way ass it is more transparent and more guaranteed for the employee but clearly it is not the only way that works.

 

In my opinion, the way Princess handles CA is a hybrid system that works for no-one. It is neither fully included in to the employed salary neither is it explicitly excluded as it used to be when we all gave out envelopes. Either of those ways works although you may have your own preference. Instead though, we have a system where it is optional, but kinda compulsory if you are on the basic fair, and definitely compulsory if you are on a package. But now there is confusion... do we tip? Is it included? If it is optional then do the crew get the wage for the job or are they relying on the CA in which it then kinda becomes compulsory for all. It is a right dog's dinner of a system IMO.

 

Unfortunately, this confusion likely benefits Princess. It allows them to pay lower wages on the strength of the obligation to pay CA placed onto the customer and as we really don't know exactly how CA is apportioned (in spite of what Princess says) we pay it anyway as we are mostly decent people and don't like the idea of the crew being under-paid. It is a psychological win-win for Princess.

 

This could all be sorted out if Princess (and other lines, Princess is not alone in this) just paid their staff a sensible wage for the job and removed CA altogether. Yes, it would likely have to be incorporated into the fares but that then is no different to other businesses that incorporate their staff costs into their prices. Then, if you want to tip you can without the pressure and confusion that exists today.

 

That is the CA world according to the Snaxmuppet! Simples!

[Bgwest]

25 minutes ago, Snaxmuppet said:

It does. But it might be a boring subject to many but it is an important subject IMO. It strikes to the very heart of how cruise lines charge and it also strikes at the very concept of what a tip, or gratuity, is to each of us.

 

To most Brits it is an extra payment for service over what is expected. We expect employees to be paid the going wage for the job and if they do anything over and above what the job normally entails, or if they do it particularly well, then most Brits I know would offer an extra payment by way of a tip. On the other hand, in the USA people do not get paid the going rate for the job if they are in a job that tracts tips and so it is expected to tip just for people doing their normal job as it makes up their wages to a sensible wage for the job. It is a very different business approach and a very different set of social rules for the customer.

 

In each of their own environments in isolation the system works as everyone knows what is expected but the problems arise in an international setting such as a cruise line where the social expectations vary.

 

I prefer the British way ass it is more transparent and more guaranteed for the employee but clearly it is not the only way that works.

 

In my opinion, the way Princess handles CA is a hybrid system that works for no-one. It is neither fully included in to the employed salary neither is it explicitly excluded as it used to be when we all gave out envelopes. Either of those ways works although you may have your own preference. Instead though, we have a system where it is optional, but kinda compulsory if you are on the basic fair, and definitely compulsory if you are on a package. But now there is confusion... do we tip? Is it included? If it is optional then do the crew get the wage for the job or are they relying on the CA in which it then kinda becomes compulsory for all. It is a right dog's dinner of a system IMO.

 

Unfortunately, this confusion likely benefits Princess. It allows them to pay lower wages on the strength of the obligation to pay CA placed onto the customer and as we really don't know exactly how CA is apportioned (in spite of what Princess says) we pay it anyway as we are mostly decent people and don't like the idea of the crew being under-paid. It is a psychological win-win for Princess.

 

This could all be sorted out if Princess (and other lines, Princess is not alone in this) just paid their staff a sensible wage for the job and removed CA altogether. Yes, it would likely have to be incorporated into the fares but that then is no different to other businesses that incorporate their staff costs into their prices. Then, if you want to tip you can without the pressure and confusion that exists today.

 

That is the CA world according to the Snaxmuppet! Simples!

Bravo! What a well thought out analysis.  
This post should be required reading for everyone. On both sides of the tipping chasm. 

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, Snaxmuppet said:

It does. But it might be a boring subject to many but it is an important subject IMO. It strikes to the very heart of how cruise lines charge and it also strikes at the very concept of what a tip, or gratuity, is to each of us.

 

To most Brits it is an extra payment for service over what is expected. We expect employees to be paid the going wage for the job and if they do anything over and above what the job normally entails, or if they do it particularly well, then most Brits I know would offer an extra payment by way of a tip.

 

Interesting.  I hear this so many different ways from folks in the U.K.  No tipping. Tipping is common for good service. Tipping only happens in tourist areas.  Service charges instead of tipping.   Whatever the case, it seems restaurant workers have an incentive to provide excellent service.  It is kind of confusing for us visitors trying to follow the customs.  

 

 

2 hours ago, Snaxmuppet said:

 

On the other hand, in the USA people do not get paid the going rate for the job if they are in a job that tracts tips and so it is expected to tip just for people doing their normal job as it makes up their wages to a sensible wage for the job. It is a very different business approach and a very different set of 

 

Our systems seem to differ only in what is included in the legally mandated base wage.  Here, in some jurisdictions, tips are on top of the base wage.  In others, tips are part of the base wage.  Either way, no one makes less than a State's mandated minimum wage.  The vast majority make more.  

 

2 hours ago, Snaxmuppet said:

In each of their own environments in isolation the system works as everyone knows what is expected but the problems arise in an international setting such as a cruise line where the social expectations vary.

 

While I am comfortable with it, I'm just tired of our American tipping system.  My main concern is if we ever migrate away from it, the employee is kept whole.  But change is not likely to happen in my lifetime.

 

2 hours ago, Snaxmuppet said:

 

I prefer the British way ass it is more transparent and more guaranteed for the employee but clearly it is not the only way that works.

 

I do not agree that the British way is more guaranteed for the employee.   Both systems seem to guarantee a base income with potential to earn more thru tips.  

 

2 hours ago, Snaxmuppet said:

 

In my opinion, the way Princess handles CA is a hybrid system that works for no-one. It is neither fully included in to the employed salary neither is it explicitly excluded as it used to be when we all gave out envelopes. Either of those ways works although you may have your own preference. Instead though, we have a system where it is optional, but kinda compulsory if you are on the basic fair, and definitely compulsory if you are on a package. But now there is confusion... do we tip? Is it included? If it is optional then do the crew get the wage for the job or are they relying on the CA in which it then kinda becomes compulsory for all. It is a right dog's dinner of a system IMO.

 

Likewise, I am uneasy with Princess' approach to the corporately pooling of gratuities.  I would be OK with building grat's into the pricing. Then get rid of the tipping expectation altogether. 

 

2 hours ago, Snaxmuppet said:

 

Unfortunately, this confusion likely benefits Princess. It allows them to pay lower wages on the strength of the obligation to pay CA placed onto the customer and as we really don't know exactly how CA is apportioned (in spite of what Princess says) we pay it anyway as we are mostly decent people and don't like the idea of the crew being under-paid. It is a psychological win-win for Princess.

 

This could all be sorted out if Princess (and other lines, Princess is not alone in this) just paid their staff a sensible wage for the job and removed CA altogether. Yes, it would likely have to be incorporated into the fares but that then is no different to other businesses that incorporate their staff costs into their prices. Then, if you want to tip you can without the pressure and confusion that exists today.

 

 

 

Whichever system we might prefer or be comfortable with, we should apply the "when in Rome" rule.    Agree or not, when we book the cruise we all know the system being used on cruise ships.  

  

[rideev]

33 minutes ago, ldubs said:

Whichever system we might prefer or be comfortable with, we should apply the "when in Rome" rule.    Agree or not, when we book the cruise we all know the system being used on cruise ships.  

  

Then the cruise line should not allow people to remove the CA.  

 

But since they do allow it, it is my decision.  You do you, I'll do me.  I won't hate you because of how you choose to spend your money.

[Cruise Raider]

Although the crew is not really supposed to discuss their salary in detail with the guests onboard, quite a few have come out with an honest answer of how they are paid since the return to service back in July 2021.  
They are now paid a salary, which they seem to be happy with as it provides them with a steady income regardless of the itinerary or the ship’s passenger capacity on a particular cruise.  That salary is made up of what the passengers pay through the Crew Appreciation and distributed to the crew throughout the Princess fleet.  Anything extra you may hand to them is theirs to keep.  We’ve noticed that many will throw it in a tip jar for the entire team that has helped in the particular venue or service but it is entirely up to them to do so.  
 

When the Crew Appreciation is removed by a passenger, the crew will still receive the same compensation through the salary they’ve been promised.  The Crew Appreciation will be ultimately be raised for the passengers that don’t remove it, so it is your fellow passengers that end up subsidizing those that remove it.  Plain and simple .. 

I would be happy if it was just mandatory or included in the taxes and fees.  

 

[Cruise Raider]

41 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Whichever system we might prefer or be comfortable with, we should apply the "when in Rome" rule.    Agree or not, when we book the cruise we all know the system being used on cruise ships.  

  

Bravo! 👏 

[ldubs]

7 minutes ago, rideev said:

Then the cruise line should not allow people to remove the CA.  

 

But since they do allow it, it is my decision.  You do you, I'll do me.  I won't hate you because of how you choose to spend your money.

 

Service was bad -- Remove or reduce the grats.    

Want to give directly -- remove the grats.  

Just want to save money -- Aw jeez.  

 

Thanks for not hating me.  😀

[Guest Snaxmuppet]

23 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Service was bad -- Remove or reduce the grats.    

Want to give directly -- remove the grats.  

Just want to save money -- Aw jeez.  

 

Thanks for not hating me.  😀

I can't reduce or remove the CA... I always have a package.

[ldubs]

6 minutes ago, Snaxmuppet said:

I can't reduce or remove the CA... I always have a package.

 

I admit that is kind of a head scratcher. 

[ldubs]

42 minutes ago, Cruise Raider said:

Although the crew is not really supposed to discuss their salary in detail with the guests onboard, quite a few have come out with an honest answer of how they are paid since the return to service back in July 2021.  
They are now paid a salary, which they seem to be happy with as it provides them with a steady income regardless of the itinerary or the ship’s passenger capacity on a particular cruise.  That salary is made up of what the passengers pay through the Crew Appreciation and distributed to the crew throughout the Princess fleet.  Anything extra you may hand to them is theirs to keep.  We’ve noticed that many will throw it in a tip jar for the entire team that has helped in the particular venue or service but it is entirely up to them to do so.  
 

When the Crew Appreciation is removed by a passenger, the crew will still receive the same compensation through the salary they’ve been promised.  The Crew Appreciation will be ultimately be raised for the passengers that don’t remove it, so it is your fellow passengers that end up subsidizing those that remove it.  Plain and simple .. 

I would be happy if it was just mandatory or included in the taxes and fees.  

 

 

I think you are saying that crew receive the same salary regardless of the Crew Appreciation (prepaid gratuities)?  

[olvrxyzh]

Since COVID  everything has changed, prices have gone up and employees that have terribly stressful jobs are demanding more money; stewards are responsible for more cabins post COVID due to lack of people applying for such jobs.  Have you ever noticed that most cruise lines don't hire Americans to be stewards because we wouldn't work so many hours for so little money!  I have no problem with the crew appreciation cost.

Edited February 26 by olvrxyzh

[Guest Snaxmuppet]

4 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

I think you are saying that crew receive the same salary regardless of the Crew Appreciation (prepaid gratuities)?  

I think that he was also saying that people in the USA still make minimum wage after tips... that is awful! They should be making minimum wage regardless of tips IMO and that is the downside IMO of the USA system. Tips don't mean anything. They are not seen as extra when they are needed to make up their wage to a sensible wage for the job.

[JeffT237]

Jumping in late, but the original question was about the cost of Wi-Fi and a glass of wine?  Got to love CC, all the posts almost always end up in an endless and unsolvable argument about gratuities!

[Guest Snaxmuppet]

4 minutes ago, JeffT237 said:

Jumping in late, but the original question was about the cost of Wi-Fi and a glass of wine?  Got to love CC, all the posts almost always end up in an endless and unsolvable argument about gratuities!

This has but most don't 🙂

[Cruise Feen]

8 minutes ago, JeffT237 said:

Jumping in late, but the original question was about the cost of Wi-Fi and a glass of wine?  Got to love CC, all the posts almost always end up in an endless and unsolvable argument about gratuities!

 

5 minutes ago, Snaxmuppet said:

This has but most don't 🙂

Despite rising costs, it's still the best way to travel when you're on a budget.

[ldubs]

29 minutes ago, Snaxmuppet said:

I think that he was also saying that people in the USA still make minimum wage after tips... that is awful! They should be making minimum wage regardless of tips IMO and that is the downside IMO of the USA system. Tips don't mean anything. They are not seen as extra when they are needed to make up their wage to a sensible wage for the job.

 

My question and the post I quoted were about crew salaries on cruise ships.  Not about American restaurant workers (I think).

 

I do understand your comment and agree to a large extent.   The State where I live does not do what you describe.  I think there are also some misleading assumptions.  From what I read,  a very low percent of American workers make only the minimum wage.  

Edited February 26 by ldubs

[JeffT237]

14 minutes ago, Snaxmuppet said:

This has but most don't 🙂

 

I cruise on multiple lines, so I browse multiple boards.....many posts end up relating to or commenting on tipping at some point.  Yes not all, but many.  The arguing in many times is sensless, most of the  cruise lines all have their recommendations and have moved to daily gratuity amounts being charged to cruisers onboard accounts or offering the ability to pay them pre-cruise or add them into a bundle package.  Most of the lines also allow the removal of the automatic gratuity, they discourage it but their own policies allow this.  

 

They almost always end up in a debate on the cruise workers pay structure, tipping cultures in different parts of the world, virtue signaling or the living wage debate in America.  And nothing solved.  

Edited February 26 by JeffT237

[ldubs]

8 minutes ago, JeffT237 said:

 

I cruise on multiple lines, so I browse multiple boards.....many posts end up relating to or commenting on tipping at some point.  Yes not all, but many.  The arguing in many times is sensless, most of the  cruise lines all have their recommendations and have moved to daily gratuity amounts being charged to cruisers onboard accounts or offering the ability to pay them pre-cruise or add them into a bundle package.  Most of the lines also allow the removal of the automatic gratuity, they discourage it but their own policies allow this.  

 

They almost always end up in a debate on the cruise workers pay structure, tipping cultures in different parts of the world, virtue signaling or the living wage debate in America.  And nothing solved.  

 

As long as we don't go back to the old days of distributing envelopes on the last night, I'm good.  😀 

[suzyed]

On 2/24/2024 at 7:33 AM, TRLD said:

Of course the question is if they really cannot afford it, especially since a fair number of those that talk about withholding tips also talk about the cabin classes they are in, not insides in many cases.

 

I expect if they have saved for a cruise and can afford it, they can afford the tips more than the crew they are withholding them from.

 

While there is the expectation of good service, the NA focused mass market cruise lines also make it clear that there is the expectation of a recommended gratuity that come with that service.

 

The reason that it is optional in a feature of US accounting regulations, it is also why can be confident that the daily gratuity monies collected are fully distributed to crew. 

Amen!

Tipping has been part of cruising for as long as we have been cruising...44 years.  We used to get envelopes and tip the staff on the last night.  That was when you would see lots of empty seats in the dining room as the cheapskates skipped dinner so they didn't have to give the tip.  It's all a game.
As more and more folks stop tipping, the cruise line will possibly just eliminate the tips and increase the price of the cruise to make up for it.  Either way it works for us.

Edited February 26 by suzyed

[Guest Snaxmuppet]

51 minutes ago, JeffT237 said:

 

I cruise on multiple lines, so I browse multiple boards.....many posts end up relating to or commenting on tipping at some point.  Yes not all, but many.  The arguing in many times is sensless, most of the  cruise lines all have their recommendations and have moved to daily gratuity amounts being charged to cruisers onboard accounts or offering the ability to pay them pre-cruise or add them into a bundle package.  Most of the lines also allow the removal of the automatic gratuity, they discourage it but their own policies allow this.  

 

They almost always end up in a debate on the cruise workers pay structure, tipping cultures in different parts of the world, virtue signaling or the living wage debate in America.  And nothing solved.  

I certainly don't expect anything to be solved by discussions on CC! But the fact that it does crop up so many times tells us how important it is to many people.

 

I see no problem in discussing it. If people don't want to discuss it then you don't have to. That is the beauty of a forum... you dip in with things that interest you and you can ignore the rest 🙂

[Guest Snaxmuppet]

45 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

As long as we don't go back to the old days of distributing envelopes on the last night, I'm good.  😀 

I still tip when there is excellent service but I don't leave it until last night... I tip through the cruise as and when that good service occurs.

[Bgwest]

3 hours ago, JeffT237 said:

Got to love CC, all the posts almost always end up in an endless and unsolvable argument about gratuities!

You are just plain wrong. Just as many threads devolve into arguments about dress suggestions!!!

😃

(Just kidding. You are of correct of course but I didn't want our old friend dress suggestions to feel slighted!)

[TRLD]

20 hours ago, Titanfan22 said:

Tipping is not an expected practice for those folding sheets, those cooking, those washing dishes and etc.  In the case of the restaurant, the server receives the tip for their service and they agree to share or not, that’s their decision. 
 

I’m sure these other trades will gladly allow tipping as an accepted practice, let’s start doing it?

It is on the cruise line when they signed an eminent contract saying they are part of the gratuity pool.

 

You know the practice on cruise lines before you ever booked.