Questions for recent Princess cruisers

[Cruise Raider]

3 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

I think you are saying that crew receive the same salary regardless of the Crew Appreciation (prepaid gratuities)?  

They are paid a particular salary that comes from the crew appreciation that is paid from passengers throughout the entire fleet.  If people remove it, Princess will be forced to raise the Crew Appreciation that we all pay.  I don’t understand why anybody would remove it unless they get terrible service, though.  
 

[TRLD]

12 hours ago, Snaxmuppet said:

It does. But it might be a boring subject to many but it is an important subject IMO. It strikes to the very heart of how cruise lines charge and it also strikes at the very concept of what a tip, or gratuity, is to each of us.

 

To most Brits it is an extra payment for service over what is expected. We expect employees to be paid the going wage for the job and if they do anything over and above what the job normally entails, or if they do it particularly well, then most Brits I know would offer an extra payment by way of a tip. On the other hand, in the USA people do not get paid the going rate for the job if they are in a job that tracts tips and so it is expected to tip just for people doing their normal job as it makes up their wages to a sensible wage for the job. It is a very different business approach and a very different set of social rules for the customer.

 

In each of their own environments in isolation the system works as everyone knows what is expected but the problems arise in an international setting such as a cruise line where the social expectations vary.

 

I prefer the British way ass it is more transparent and more guaranteed for the employee but clearly it is not the only way that works.

 

In my opinion, the way Princess handles CA is a hybrid system that works for no-one. It is neither fully included in to the employed salary neither is it explicitly excluded as it used to be when we all gave out envelopes. Either of those ways works although you may have your own preference. Instead though, we have a system where it is optional, but kinda compulsory if you are on the basic fair, and definitely compulsory if you are on a package. But now there is confusion... do we tip? Is it included? If it is optional then do the crew get the wage for the job or are they relying on the CA in which it then kinda becomes compulsory for all. It is a right dog's dinner of a system IMO.

 

Unfortunately, this confusion likely benefits Princess. It allows them to pay lower wages on the strength of the obligation to pay CA placed onto the customer and as we really don't know exactly how CA is apportioned (in spite of what Princess says) we pay it anyway as we are mostly decent people and don't like the idea of the crew being under-paid. It is a psychological win-win for Princess.

 

This could all be sorted out if Princess (and other lines, Princess is not alone in this) just paid their staff a sensible wage for the job and removed CA altogether. Yes, it would likely have to be incorporated into the fares but that then is no different to other businesses that incorporate their staff costs into their prices. Then, if you want to tip you can without the pressure and confusion that exists today.

 

That is the CA world according to the Snaxmuppet! Simples!

It is not unique to Princess it is the same for all NA focused mass market cruise lines taking advantage of US accounting regulations that actually saves the passengers money, results in more funds in the crew member pockets, and provides benefits to the cruiseline compared to doing away with the gratuity and rolling the same money into a the base fare.

[TRLD]

7 hours ago, rideev said:

Then the cruise line should not allow people to remove the CA.  

 

But since they do allow it, it is my decision.  You do you, I'll do me.  I won't hate you because of how you choose to spend your money.

It is an option that they have to provide to retain the benefits under US accounting rules.

[TRLD]

8 hours ago, Cruise Raider said:

Although the crew is not really supposed to discuss their salary in detail with the guests onboard, quite a few have come out with an honest answer of how they are paid since the return to service back in July 2021.  
They are now paid a salary, which they seem to be happy with as it provides them with a steady income regardless of the itinerary or the ship’s passenger capacity on a particular cruise.  That salary is made up of what the passengers pay through the Crew Appreciation and distributed to the crew throughout the Princess fleet.  Anything extra you may hand to them is theirs to keep.  We’ve noticed that many will throw it in a tip jar for the entire team that has helped in the particular venue or service but it is entirely up to them to do so.  
 

When the Crew Appreciation is removed by a passenger, the crew will still receive the same compensation through the salary they’ve been promised.  The Crew Appreciation will be ultimately be raised for the passengers that don’t remove it, so it is your fellow passengers that end up subsidizing those that remove it.  Plain and simple .. 

I would be happy if it was just mandatory or included in the taxes and fees.  

 

Not quite. They receive their salary and they receive their payout from the pool in their pay. While it is certainly more consistent since the pool was made fleetwide, it is certainly not all salary.

the money going into to the pool comes from those contributions. Everything some chooses to withhold the contribution total is less. If enough withhold the payments are reduced or the gratuity amount increased.

 

 

 

It is covered in paragraph 4 e in the employment contract. Which very clearly states that the amount paid from the pool is not guaranteed, is dependent upon passenger payments and the company will not make up shortfalls

 

While a removal does not impact the immediate payment to a given employee. There is the question of performance metrix tracked on employees.  At a most traveled luncheons I was seated with the Officer is charge of the stewards. He said that removal are tracked and compared. If a steward has a higher than normal removal rate compared to others on his ship during a review period it can impact the potential for promotion and future contracts.

 

Just as positive comments in the survey are a big positive that impact promotions, onboard time off and future contracts.

 

Wonder if Princess ever gets a positive comment in the survey along with the removal of gratuities.

Edited February 26 by TRLD

[c-boy]

4 hours ago, JeffT237 said:

Jumping in late, but the original question was about the cost of Wi-Fi and a glass of wine?  Got to love CC, all the posts almost always end up in an endless and unsolvable argument about gratuities!

👍 the train left the track before it left the station.

[TRLD]

On 2/25/2024 at 4:31 PM, memoak said:

Those people who won’t pay crew appreciation probably would not like the equivalent in cruise fare increase since it would total the same amount of money. 

 

 

Actually it would probably be a bit more if one assumes that the change results in the crew getting the same after taxes, the cruise maintaining the same margin percentage on operations as well as impact on travel insurance cost.

[Cruise Raider]

1 hour ago, TRLD said:

Not quite. They receive their salary and they receive their payout from the pool in their pay. While it is certainly more consistent since the pool was made fleetwide, it is certainly not all salary.

the money going into to the pool comes from those contributions. Everything some chooses to withhold the contribution total is less. If enough withhold the payments are reduced or the gratuity amount increased.

 

 

 

It is covered in paragraph 4 e in the employment contract. Which very clearly states that the amount paid from the pool is not guaranteed, is dependent upon passenger payments and the company will not make up shortfalls

 

While a removal does not impact the immediate payment to a given employee. There is the question of performance metrix tracked on employees.  At a most traveled luncheons I was seated with the Officer is charge of the stewards. He said that removal are tracked and compared. If a steward has a higher than normal removal rate compared to others on his ship during a review period it can impact the potential for promotion and future contracts.

 

Just as positive comments in the survey are a big positive that impact promotions, onboard time off and future contracts.

 

Wonder if Princess ever gets a positive comment in the survey along with the removal of gratuities.

That is so interesting and sounds extremely plausible!  We never dig too much when it comes to how they get paid so, we just heard they were paid an overall salary and can keep what we tip them in person.  Your description sounds so much more insightful.  

It’s just so unfair to those staff members when their gratuities are removed because it may not even be someone that was an offender that is blamed!  We always run into that rare bird that doesn’t offer the best service .. to us, that person is an outlier and won’t even allow it to impact our overall score on our survey.  Everyone is entitled to have an off day or maybe even an off month.  I think about what all those poor crew members from Ukraine had on their minds .. still have on their minds and have to keep up those smiles when they are hurting on the inside.  

 

[Cruise Raider]

55 minutes ago, c-boy said:

👍 the train left the track before it left the station.

Sorry .. I participated and I’m really trying to stay on topic!  I need to do better!  
 

[TRLD]

3 hours ago, Cruise Raider said:

That is so interesting and sounds extremely plausible!  We never dig too much when it comes to how they get paid so, we just heard they were paid an overall salary and can keep what we tip them in person.  Your description sounds so much more insightful.  

It’s just so unfair to those staff members when their gratuities are removed because it may not even be someone that was an offender that is blamed!  We always run into that rare bird that doesn’t offer the best service .. to us, that person is an outlier and won’t even allow it to impact our overall score on our survey.  Everyone is entitled to have an off day or maybe even an off month.  I think about what all those poor crew members from Ukraine had on their minds .. still have on their minds and have to keep up those smiles when they are hurting on the inside.  

 

Since the restart and the pushing of packages they have been able to keep individual tips. I suspect that the percentage of passengers getting packages is high enough that the number of people pulling  tips has dripped.

[Bgwest]

Has anyone else noticed that suddenly everyone has become an expert in US cruising tax law?

SMH

[Bgwest]

And employment contracts. Paragraph by paragraph.  
Posting said contract to this board in its entirety would certainly lend a great deal of credibility to otherwise dubious posts. 

[JeffT237]

 

1 hour ago, Bgwest said:

Has anyone else noticed that suddenly everyone has become an expert in US cruising tax law?

SMH

 

It's better than 3 years ago when everyone was an expert in immunology, virology and epidemiology!

[Titanfan22]

8 hours ago, olvrxyzh said:

Since COVID  everything has changed, prices have gone up and employees that have terribly stressful jobs are demanding more money; stewards are responsible for more cabins post COVID due to lack of people applying for such jobs.  Have you ever noticed that most cruise lines don't hire Americans to be stewards because we wouldn't work so many hours for so little money!  I have no problem with the crew appreciation cost.

I agree with what you are saying, but it is not crew appreciation if it is not in addition to their salary.  

[Titanfan22]

8 hours ago, JeffT237 said:

Jumping in late, but the original question was about the cost of Wi-Fi and a glass of wine?  Got to love CC, all the posts almost always end up in an endless and unsolvable argument about gratuities!

Whose arguing, we’re collaborating on a solution!

[TRLD]

On 2/26/2024 at 7:30 PM, Bgwest said:

Has anyone else noticed that suddenly everyone has become an expert in US cruising tax law?

SMH

I would guess you are not since US tax law does not really apply. After all the cruise lines pay little US income tax and certainly not from shipboard operations. The ship board employees that are part of the pool are pretty much entirely not US residents and not subject to US tax either.

 

What is involved is US accounting standards and regulations that the cruise lines must follow because they are listed on the US stock exchange and they are subject to the SEC financial filing requirements.  Something totally different.

Edited February 27 by TRLD

[Titanfan22]

So we all agree to be good team members and pay the crew appreciation (service fee with tax benefits for all to circumvent US tax code).  Does everyone now feel compelled to give more tips to individuals who do a great job (steward, waiter, bartender)?  If so, are we starting a new cruise line expectation / societal expectation of tip the already tipped or you’re a cheap scape in the eyes of those who do?  
 

Charge the fare that it takes to run the ship and pay the employees then passengers can tip when and if they feel like it!  
 

 

[Titanfan22]

17 minutes ago, TRLD said:

I would guess you are not since US tax law does not really apply. After all the cruise lines pay little US income tax and certainly not from shipboard operations. The ship board employees that are part of the pool are pretty much entirely not US residents and not subject to US tax either.

 

What is involved is US accounting standards and regulations that the cruise lines must follow because they are listed on the US stock exchange and they are subject to the SEC financial filing requirements.  Something totally different.

Just saw this, thank God they can’t cheat the US government, that would be a new program.

 

 

[TRLD]

On 2/26/2024 at 7:37 PM, Bgwest said:

And employment contracts. Paragraph by paragraph.  
Posting said contract to this board in its entirety would certainly lend a great deal of credibility to otherwise dubious posts. 

Here are links to 2 examples of Princess employee contract language and terms and conditions.

The paragraph 4 e reference is selected from the first. In the second it is discussed in paragraph 5 I believe.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=http://www.inozemstvo-posao.com/forumattachments/02-Terms_%26_Conditions_of_Employment.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjGvKuGu8qEAxX0_8kDHeWqBbA4ChAWegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw2e9vhhTZF1pD1E0mXIwTr-

 

https://docplayer-net.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/docplayer.net/amp/44218718-Employment-contract-princess-cruise-lines-ltd.html?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=17089993325557&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fdocplayer.net%2F44218718-Employment-contract-princess-cruise-lines-ltd.html

[TRLD]

On 2/26/2024 at 10:17 PM, Titanfan22 said:

So we all agree to be good team members and pay the crew appreciation (service fee with tax benefits for all to circumvent US tax code).  Does everyone now feel compelled to give more tips to individuals who do a great job (steward, waiter, bartender)?  If so, are we starting a new cruise line expectation / societal expectation of tip the already tipped or you’re a cheap scape in the eyes of those who do?  
 

Charge the fare that it takes to run the ship and pay the employees then passengers can tip when and if they feel like it!  
 

 

Has nothing to do with US tax code. Cruise lines pay little US tax and what we are discussing does not impact the taxes they would pay in the US.

 

Nor do the ship board workers that are part of the pool pay tax in the US.

 

So for those you thinking this has anything to do with US tax law you have clearing missed the boat.

 

It has to do with US accounting standards and the impact on financial reporting.

 

I am currently on a cruise and doing this by cell phone. Tomorrow if I get a chance I will go through the last CCL 10q or 10k and show exactly what the difference would be between the current gratuity based system and a included in fare based system and what that would mean to passengers, cruise line and employees.

Edited February 27 by TRLD

[2MellowCruisers]

I generally don't like to get in to these tipping debates but I did find this article.  It touches briefly on the idea that the automatic gratuities don't go to the crew, the idea of rolling them into the fare, which can be a complicated issue and also touches on removing the auto tips.

 

This seems to be about CCL but may also relate to Princess.  Quotes from John Heald.  I know nothing about this site, or the management structure at the Carnival Corporation or what happens behind the scenes.  I make no warranty about the reliability of this site or the truthfulness of the quotes.  I'm just a person who likes to cruise hopefully will help ease the debating back and forth a little.

 

https://www.cruisehive.com/carnival-cruise-line-addresses-gratuity-nonsense/109106

 

Edited February 27 by 2MellowCruisers
Typo correction.

[Titanfan22]

30 minutes ago, 2MellowCruisers said:

I generally don't like to get in to these tipping debates but I did find this article.  It touches briefly on the idea that the automatic gratuities don't go to the crew, the idea of rolling them into the fare, which can be a complicated issue and also touches on removing the auto tips.

 

This seems to be about CCL but may also relate to Princess.  Quotes from John Heald.  I know nothing about this site, or the management structure at the Carnival Corporation or what happens behind the scenes.  I make no warranty about the reliability of this site or the truthfulness of the quotes.  I'm just a person who likes to cruise hopefully will help ease the debating back and forth a little.

 

https://www.cruisehive.com/carnival-cruise-line-addresses-gratuity-nonsense/109106

 

One thing I noticed in the article:

 

”We will continue to allow people to remove gratuities if they wish. We know (because we ask the crew) how many tip in cash instead of the pre-paid amounts. I understand why many wish to do this,” he said. “It is important to remember that lots of people who do remove gratuities tip the same amount in cash or more even and that is wonderful.”

 

Seems like this would be pretty intimidating to employees from 3rd world countries that are desperate for work?

[Titanfan22]

1 hour ago, TRLD said:

Here are links to 2 examples of Princess employee contract language and terms and conditions.

The paragraph 4 e reference is selected from the first. In the second it is discussed in paragraph 5 I believe.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=http://www.inozemstvo-posao.com/forumattachments/02-Terms_%26_Conditions_of_Employment.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjGvKuGu8qEAxX0_8kDHeWqBbA4ChAWegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw2e9vhhTZF1pD1E0mXIwTr-

 

https://docplayer-net.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/docplayer.net/amp/44218718-Employment-contract-princess-cruise-lines-ltd.html?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From %1%24s&aoh=17089993325557&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fdocplayer.net%2F44218718-Employment-contract-princess-cruise-lines-ltd.html

A few excerpts:

”Discretionary Hotel and Dining Charge Pool”

“Company makes no promise, guarantee, or commitment, and crew member he/she does not expect or anticipate payment by the Company of any compensation beyond the minimum wage guarantee”

”Each and every crew member also agrees to deliver any such volunteer passenger contribution he or she receives from any passenger under any circumstances into the pool immediately upon receipt of the contribution from the passenger”

”Each crew member agrees that the company reserves and has the exclusive right to determine, in it’s sole discretion, the eligibility and number of total crew members entitled to share in the pool”

These excerpts even more state that Princess has the “sole discretion” to run the program any way they want and reward or not reward employees at their discretion.  Also, please note, those cash gratuities are not going directly to the chosen employee (unless you can do it discreetly in private) without them having fear of reprisal.  
 

These, I’m sure, are very good jobs for most of these employees compared to what’s available in their home countries, however, they have no say in how this pool is administered or distributed.  There is no guarantee, per this contract, that all of the Crew Appreciation - automatic charge or cash - is going directly back to the employees as others have previously stated in this thread.

 

Thank you TRLD for sharing.  

[dockman]

page after page concerning amout of tips paid or not paid and why or why not and on and on and on....for the record i never opt out of auto tips and always give a few extra $$ here and there to those who go the extra mile to take care of me...

 

but rarely ever even a passing mention of how high port taxes have gotten in many ports around the world....and on many cruises it is more than the amount of the tips paid out...don't think you are allowed to opt out of port fees even if port gives lousy service they still get paid full amount with no options at all and often zero or very limited explanation of how the port fees are determined....do cruise lines keep any of the port fees or does the port get 100% of whatever is paid?

[Cruise Raider]

3 minutes ago, dockman said:

page after page concerning amout of tips paid or not paid and why or why not and on and on and on....for the record i never opt out of auto tips and always give a few extra $$ here and there to those who go the extra mile to take care of me...

 

but rarely ever even a passing mention of how high port taxes have gotten in many ports around the world....and on many cruises it is more than the amount of the tips paid out...don't think you are allowed to opt out of port fees even if port gives lousy service they still get paid full amount with no options at all and often zero or very limited explanation of how the port fees are determined....do cruise lines keep any of the port fees or does the port get 100% of whatever is paid?

I believe port fees and taxes are strictly regulated and are returned to the passengers if not used for these purposes.  
Of note, we’ve had small to not so small amounts returned on many recent sailings via our folio.  I believe the amount collected is an approximate amount and probably over estimated as it is easier to return some $$ than to try to collect extra, which has also happened in the past in my experience.  
 

[dockman]

1 hour ago, Cruise Raider said:

I believe port fees and taxes are strictly regulated and are returned to the passengers if not used for these purposes.  
Of note, we’ve had small to not so small amounts returned on many recent sailings via our folio.  I believe the amount collected is an approximate amount and probably over estimated as it is easier to return some $$ than to try to collect extra, which has also happened in the past in my experience.  
 

yes same here with small refunds some time....but i am more curious over who controls port taxes and decides how much they should be...in usa is it the state local or feds or is it different in different ports?  I remember alaska was all hot to add a $50 a person per port fee a few years back but got lot of blowback from cruise lines so it was not done...so was that each individual port or was it state of alaska? 

 

Just curious as it is indeed getting higher and often a signifcant part of the final price.  I know there are lots of services required and also lots of unions involved etc but as we all know some ports provide great services and facilities while others are pathetic with poor facilities and ill trained staff...seems to be all over the map as to facilities and staffing and overall services.....or often seems that way to me but not knowing which port gets what % of the total fee not sure who is getting what?  Maybe none of my business or concern but seems more and more common for lot of port fees to approach or exceed $40- $50 per person per day on 7 day cruises with port fees of $250  or so?