Alaska cruises and rough seas ?? Is it possible ??

[Gregrat]

1 hour ago, SightCRR said:

"The sea was angry that day my friends" George Costanza.

As George, the marine biologist, pulls a golf ball from the whales blow hole.

[SightCRR]

42 minutes ago, Gregrat said:

As George, the marine biologist, pulls a golf ball from the whales blow hole.

Was it a Titleist?

[Heidi13]

On 5/24/2024 at 4:59 PM, catspaw1 said:

We went on a HAL cruise southbound about 30 years ago in mid- late August. Hit a gale storm & missed a port of call. We are blue water sailors so weren't bothered by it too much. When we went to the dining room it was over 90% empty. Everyone was seasick & in their cabins. I think better calmer seas are best in June - July. Once the northerly winds start, the seas get rougher. Bring seasickness meds & take a full 2 hours before it gets rough.

 

Every year the weather systems change.

 

Having spent 35+ yrs working on this coast, I have experienced significant NW storms as early as May. In all my years working this coast, I've experienced at least one 40 kt + storm each month of the year.

 

Since you allude to being a "Blue Water Sailor" you should know that the sea state is not just caused by wind waves, from the prevailing winds, but also swell from weather systems that can be many thousands of miles distant. Since Alaska cruising also involves coastal cruising, the sea state can also be impacted by shoaling waters, especially in areas such as Hecate Strait. I have made hundreds of crossing of Hecate Strait in summer, and while most were calmer than the winter storms, few were devoid of wind waves/swell.

 

In my experience, you have just as much chance of experiencing snotty weather in June/July as mid-late August. 

[catspaw1]

Heidi13, not sure your experience, but I'm retired Navy. Also did a detail in Coast Guard. We sailed our 44 foot sailboat in the Atlantic full time for 7 years. So yes we are very familiar with weather. It's the first thing we did every day checking weather while cruising.  Over 40 years, we were sailing near Martha's vineyard when there was a hurricane off the NC coast. Yes we had swell from the hurricane but even though the swells were about  less than 10', the interval was long & not an issue. So it depends how close you are to the storm & most importantly what quadrant - NE being the worse.

Yes you are correct that shallow water makes the waves higher. That's why Navy ships put out to sea when a hurricane is coming.  I am not as familiar with AK waters  but do know storms seem to be more frequent in August - September. Do northerly winds come down in early summer? Confused seas are the worse for me & wind against current like a northerly in the Gulf Stream. Just IMHO. 

[wolfie11]

3 hours ago, catspaw1 said:

Heidi13, not sure your experience, but I'm retired Navy. Also did a detail in Coast Guard. We sailed our 44 foot sailboat in the Atlantic full time for 7 years. So yes we are very familiar with weather. It's the first thing we did every day checking weather while cruising.  Over 40 years, we were sailing near Martha's vineyard when there was a hurricane off the NC coast. Yes we had swell from the hurricane but even though the swells were about  less than 10', the interval was long & not an issue. So it depends how close you are to the storm & most importantly what quadrant - NE being the worse.

Yes you are correct that shallow water makes the waves higher. That's why Navy ships put out to sea when a hurricane is coming.  I am not as familiar with AK waters  but do know storms seem to be more frequent in August - September. Do northerly winds come down in early summer? Confused seas are the worse for me & wind against current like a northerly in the Gulf Stream. Just IMHO. 

The storms in Alaska can be horrendous in the winter when low after low sweep across the North Pacific.  The storms can occur any time of the year but are more common starting in September and running into April.

 

[catspaw1]

Wolfie, it's common knowledge about the storms in AK in winter. Everyone has probably seem Deadly Catch. But our experience was with a low in mid - late August causing a gale storm. Cruise ships don't like bad weather as sick passengers don't spend money. 

[wolfie11]

2 hours ago, catspaw1 said:

Wolfie, it's common knowledge about the storms in AK in winter. Everyone has probably seem Deadly Catch. But our experience was with a low in mid - late August causing a gale storm. Cruise ships don't like bad weather as sick passengers don't spend money. 

As Heidi13 said above these storms can occur anytime during the year.  They are uncommon during the summer months.  There is a risk of bad weather any time you board a boat anywhere in the world.  It’s a risk you have to be willing to take.

[catspaw1]

There's zero risk of bad weather on a ship if you don't venture out when the forecast is not good. That's the difference between a cruise ship & a personal boat. We never set sail on our boat if the forecast was not favorable! Keeping to a schedule, regardless of weather,  is where ships have a problem.  Cruise ships are too rigid to having to keep to a schedule, they have a choice not to go, but then the cruise line will not like this, so they go anyway. We have seen this time & again. We do have over 20, 000 Bluewater miles experience just on our own boat.

[Crew News]

In May 2023, the Nieuw Amsterdam in the Gulf of Alaska had 71 knot winds from the starboard and listed 13 degrees for four hours before turning towards Anchorage. 

[Heidi13]

18 hours ago, catspaw1 said:

Heidi13, not sure your experience, but I'm retired Navy. Also did a detail in Coast Guard. We sailed our 44 foot sailboat in the Atlantic full time for 7 years. So yes we are very familiar with weather. It's the first thing we did every day checking weather while cruising.  Over 40 years, we were sailing near Martha's vineyard when there was a hurricane off the NC coast. Yes we had swell from the hurricane but even though the swells were about  less than 10', the interval was long & not an issue. So it depends how close you are to the storm & most importantly what quadrant - NE being the worse.

Yes you are correct that shallow water makes the waves higher. That's why Navy ships put out to sea when a hurricane is coming.  I am not as familiar with AK waters  but do know storms seem to be more frequent in August - September. Do northerly winds come down in early summer? Confused seas are the worse for me & wind against current like a northerly in the Gulf Stream. Just IMHO. 

 

I worked 2 seasons R/T Vancouver as Navigator and on leaving P&O/Princess, I worked 32 yrs on this coast, with almost 30 of them in command of Ro/Pax vessels.

 

You encountered an August storm in your limited Alaska experience, but as I posted previously, I have experienced at least one storm each month of the year. However, the frequency ramps up in September and normally continues through April, although this year we are getting some in May.

 

In these latitudes, the storms are frontal depressions, not TRS, so the quadrant is not applicable. Based on my experience in these waters, I would not agree that storms are more frequent in August - September. As noted, the frequency ramps up starting September, but August only has occasional storms.

 

The wind direction is not always NW'ly in summer, as it depends on the jet stream and the movement of the frontal low, specifically whether it is passing to the south or north. In open waters, knowing the wind direction and whether it is veering or backing lets you know the direction of the low.

[Heidi13]

13 hours ago, catspaw1 said:

There's zero risk of bad weather on a ship if you don't venture out when the forecast is not good. That's the difference between a cruise ship & a personal boat. We never set sail on our boat if the forecast was not favorable! Keeping to a schedule, regardless of weather,  is where ships have a problem.  Cruise ships are too rigid to having to keep to a schedule, they have a choice not to go, but then the cruise line will not like this, so they go anyway. We have seen this time & again. We do have over 20, 000 Bluewater miles experience just on our own boat.

 

This is probably one of the most uneducated posts I have ever seen on this forum and is so incorrect.

 

In commercial shipping, when bad weather is forecast, the Master has to consider risk, regardless of whether the ship is alongside, or at sea. If there is zero risk to not venturing out to sea, why did we almost lose the Sun Princess, when safely docked alongside San Juan, many years ago. A significant squall from off the berth blew the ship off the berth. The gangways dropped, which fortunately were empty at the time. Then lines started parting.

 

Even with multiple head/stern lines, back springs and breast lines, in those days when a stopper was used before turning the line around the bits, it was impossible to get exactly equal tension on all lines. Therefore, the line with the most tension broke first and all other lines broke sequentially. We were throwing all spare lines ashore to reconnect and then when we ran out of spare lines, threw bowlines in the parted lines and sent them back ashore. As the officer on the Focsle, this lasted for an eternity and wasn't much fun since polyprop lines break with a bang and have a dangerous recoil, requiring everyone to dive to the deck, multiple time. Could have been cut in half many times, and you think that is zero risk??????

 

We continued this process until the Master and Chief Engineer got the thrusters running and the main engines. I've experienced many significant risks in my 40 yrs at sea, but on a ship alongside the berth, that was one of the worst.

 

You clearly don't have any experience dealing with vessel operations in the days of ISM driven safety management systems. Many cruise lines and ro/pax now operate an enhanced Bridge and Engine command and control system that provides clear guidelines to the Master and Officers. The ISM Code requires the company to make a clear statement as to the Master's authority. When dealing with safety and pollution prevention, the Master has the additional overriding authority and responsibility to make any decision and take any action, which is required in his/her professional judgement. Therefore, to ensure the safety of the vessel, the Master must make decisions that can contravene the SMS, and the company is required to assist the Master with any request.

 

Yes, cruise ships operate on tight schedules and there is always pressure to maintain the schedule, at the lowest operational cost. However, the SMS must always be complied with, lest the vessel receive a non-compliance, which can impact the company's Document of Compliance, a requirement to operate.

 

Since I have a number of years experience as an operational Master, here is how it works. When rough weather is forecast, the Master reviews the appropriate sections of the SMS, which can include a heavy weather checklist and even an operational safety matrix. The matrix will include numerous operational conditions - weather, defective machinery, defective Bridge equipment, crew issues, etc and may provide guidance using green/yellow/red. Green is normally good to go, yellow is Master's discretion and red is cannot sail. If this type of matrix is included in the SMS it is not negotiable, unless the Master utilises his/her authority and responsibility under ISM Section 5.2.

 

If no Matrix is included, the Master initially reviews if the ship is seaworthy and then uses professional judgement reviewing all available information. In the ISM era, when I contacted the office to advise I wasn't sailing, the response was thank you Captain, do you require any assistance.

 

BTW - I had 20,000 miles of open ocean experience before I had 1 yr of seatime and was not promoted to a junior watchkeeping officer until I had 3 yrs seatime.

[Son of a son of a ...]

2 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

This is probably one of the most uneducated posts I have ever seen on this forum and is so incorrect.

 

In commercial shipping, when bad weather is forecast, the Master has to consider risk, regardless of whether the ship is alongside, or at sea. If there is zero risk to not venturing out to sea, why did we almost lose the Sun Princess, when safely docked alongside San Juan, many years ago. A significant squall from off the berth blew the ship off the berth. The gangways dropped, which fortunately were empty at the time. Then lines started parting.

 

Even with multiple head/stern lines, back springs and breast lines, in those days when a stopper was used before turning the line around the bits, it was impossible to get exactly equal tension on all lines. Therefore, the line with the most tension broke first and all other lines broke sequentially. We were throwing all spare lines ashore to reconnect and then when we ran out of spare lines, threw bowlines in the parted lines and sent them back ashore. As the officer on the Focsle, this lasted for an eternity and wasn't much fun since polyprop lines break with a bang and have a dangerous recoil, requiring everyone to dive to the deck, multiple time. Could have been cut in half many times, and you think that is zero risk??????

 

We continued this process until the Master and Chief Engineer got the thrusters running and the main engines. I've experienced many significant risks in my 40 yrs at sea, but on a ship alongside the berth, that was one of the worst.

 

You clearly don't have any experience dealing with vessel operations in the days of ISM driven safety management systems. Many cruise lines and ro/pax now operate an enhanced Bridge and Engine command and control system that provides clear guidelines to the Master and Officers. The ISM Code requires the company to make a clear statement as to the Master's authority. When dealing with safety and pollution prevention, the Master has the additional overriding authority and responsibility to make any decision and take any action, which is required in his/her professional judgement. Therefore, to ensure the safety of the vessel, the Master must make decisions that can contravene the SMS, and the company is required to assist the Master with any request.

 

Yes, cruise ships operate on tight schedules and there is always pressure to maintain the schedule, at the lowest operational cost. However, the SMS must always be complied with, lest the vessel receive a non-compliance, which can impact the company's Document of Compliance, a requirement to operate.

 

Since I have a number of years experience as an operational Master, here is how it works. When rough weather is forecast, the Master reviews the appropriate sections of the SMS, which can include a heavy weather checklist and even an operational safety matrix. The matrix will include numerous operational conditions - weather, defective machinery, defective Bridge equipment, crew issues, etc and may provide guidance using green/yellow/red. Green is normally good to go, yellow is Master's discretion and red is cannot sail. If this type of matrix is included in the SMS it is not negotiable, unless the Master utilises his/her authority and responsibility under ISM Section 5.2.

 

If no Matrix is included, the Master initially reviews if the ship is seaworthy and then uses professional judgement reviewing all available information. In the ISM era, when I contacted the office to advise I wasn't sailing, the response was thank you Captain, do you require any assistance.

 

BTW - I had 20,000 miles of open ocean experience before I had 1 yr of seatime and was not promoted to a junior watchkeeping officer until I had 3 yrs seatime.

I do enjoy a good beat down by knowledge, skill, experience, and expertise.  Very informative, Andy!  Many thanks for your input for us lurkers hoping to learn from others who know.

[catspaw1]

The Navy, where I retired from, sends vessels in port out to sea. A quick google will confirm this. Ships are safer at sea if they can get out of harms way- sonetimes thats not possible. That's what I told you & you ignored. You were wrong to state the NE quadrant of a hurricane that I referred to, is not the safest quadrant to be in. It absolutely is the worst quadrant.  A lee shore is the worst in regular weather let alone in a storm. In addition to my Navy experience, (I retired as an O4) as I already told you, I detailed to Coast Guard. In addition to that experience, we have owned a boat & sailed in excess of 40 years, lived aboard for 10 years & were blue water sailors for 7 years full time. We are also ham operators. So yes I have mega experience in weather. & I repeat, going out with bad weather is fool hardy. Navy ships sometimes have to do that but why should a cruise ship take a chance?  We don't take chances on our 44' boat. We have sailed short handed, crossed the pond & have over 20,000 blue water miles just in our sailboat. So do NOT call me uneducated about marine weather! 

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, catspaw1 said:

The Navy, where I retired from, sends vessels in port out to sea. A quick google will confirm this. Ships are safer at sea if they can get out of harms way- sonetimes thats not possible. That's what I told you & you ignored. You were wrong to state the NE quadrant of a hurricane that I referred to, is not the safest quadrant to be in. It absolutely is the worst quadrant.  A lee shore is the worst in regular weather let alone in a storm. In addition to my Navy experience, (I retired as an O4) as I already told you, I detailed to Coast Guard. In addition to that experience, we have owned a boat & sailed in excess of 40 years, lived aboard for 10 years & were blue water sailors for 7 years full time. We are also ham operators. So yes I have mega experience in weather. & I repeat, going out with bad weather is fool hardy. Navy ships sometimes have to do that but why should a cruise ship take a chance?  We don't take chances on our 44' boat. We have sailed short handed, crossed the pond & have over 20,000 blue water miles just in our sailboat. So do NOT call me uneducated about marine weather! 

 

This forum is all about cruising and this topic is about Alaska specifically. Since the Navy doesn't carry pax. I am not sure why you continuously focus on Navy procedures.

 

In the commercial industry, when it involves the ship's safety, the decision is entirely that of the Master, as per the ISM Code. Each situation is risk assessed and I can assure you that ships are NOT always safer at sea. In many cases yes, but the Master must evaluate the risks and determine risk mitigation strategies. If remaining in port is deemed less risk, risk mitigation strategies can include securing additional lines, hiring tugs, having thrusters/main propulsion running, etc.

 

An example was the Viking Sky incident back in 2019, when the Master sailed while the vessel had 1 engine down for maintenance, and heavy weather was forecast. Having 1 engine down rendered the vessel unable to comply with the safe return to port regulations, so the vessel was actually not seaworthy. When crossing a notoriously treacherous area of the Norwegian Coast, the vessel experienced a total blackout due to considerable rolling and pitching. The official investigation recommends that the vessel would have been safer remaining in port.

 

Back in the days when I was a Deck Officer, we delayed departure due to forecast winds of 120 kts. Another consideration was on clearing of the port, the channel was rather shallow for about 10 miles. Any considerable pitching and/or rolling would have resulted in a grounding. Remaining in port, as the Master did, was by far the safer option. In my many years as Master, I have remained in port due to heavy weather, on many occasions, as it involved less risk.

 

With respect to the quadrants of a TRS, I believe my only comment was they (quadrants) are not applicable in Alaska, as storms originate from frontal depressions, not TRS. I am well aware of the navigable and dangerous semi-circles and quadrants of a TRS. The NE quadrant is only the most dangerous quadrant in the Northern Hemisphere, as in the Southern Hemisphere the track is WSW and the southern semi-circle is the most dangerous. Therefore, in the Southern Hemisphere, the NE quadrant is in the safer semi-circle.

 

Since I'm not American and have only worked commercial vessels, I have no idea what O4 is. Is that an officer, PO or rating and how does it identify the department?

 

I haven't commented on your meteorological knowledge, I questioned your erroneous generic statements, such as:

 - There's zero risk of bad weather on a ship if you don't venture out when the forecast is not good. Ship's always incur risk, regardless of whether they sail or remain in port. I outlined my experience of a serious squall in San Juan.

 - Ships are safer at sea if they can get out of harms way. The Viking Sky incident is the classic example of why each situation must be risk assessed and there is NO generic answer, as I experienced too many times during my years in command. I have numerous experiences as a Master, where my vessel was safer remaining in port.

- Cruise ships are too rigid to having to keep to a schedule, they have a choice not to go, but then the cruise line will not like this, so they go anyway. - If the Master is pressured to sail, this is a clear contravention of the ISM Code. Since the Master's authority must be included in the Safety Management System, it would be classed as a major non-conformity, which could negatively impact the cruise line's Document of Compliance (DoC). The DoC is issued to the cruise line and applies to all the vessels. The DoC is an ISM and SOLAS requirement to operate, so if the DoC is cancelled, the cruise line cannot operate any of their vessels. Since my last company completed the ISM process, I have NEVER been pressured to sail against my judgement. Did it happen before ISM - Yes, but not afterwards.

 

 

[wolfie11]

3 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

This forum is all about cruising and this topic is about Alaska specifically. Since the Navy doesn't carry pax. I am not sure why you continuously focus on Navy procedures.

 

In the commercial industry, when it involves the ship's safety, the decision is entirely that of the Master, as per the ISM Code. Each situation is risk assessed and I can assure you that ships are NOT always safer at sea. In many cases yes, but the Master must evaluate the risks and determine risk mitigation strategies. If remaining in port is deemed less risk, risk mitigation strategies can include securing additional lines, hiring tugs, having thrusters/main propulsion running, etc.

 

An example was the Viking Sky incident back in 2019, when the Master sailed while the vessel had 1 engine down for maintenance, and heavy weather was forecast. Having 1 engine down rendered the vessel unable to comply with the safe return to port regulations, so the vessel was actually not seaworthy. When crossing a notoriously treacherous area of the Norwegian Coast, the vessel experienced a total blackout due to considerable rolling and pitching. The official investigation recommends that the vessel would have been safer remaining in port.

 

Back in the days when I was a Deck Officer, we delayed departure due to forecast winds of 120 kts. Another consideration was on clearing of the port, the channel was rather shallow for about 10 miles. Any considerable pitching and/or rolling would have resulted in a grounding. Remaining in port, as the Master did, was by far the safer option. In my many years as Master, I have remained in port due to heavy weather, on many occasions, as it involved less risk.

 

With respect to the quadrants of a TRS, I believe my only comment was they (quadrants) are not applicable in Alaska, as storms originate from frontal depressions, not TRS. I am well aware of the navigable and dangerous semi-circles and quadrants of a TRS. The NE quadrant is only the most dangerous quadrant in the Northern Hemisphere, as in the Southern Hemisphere the track is WSW and the southern semi-circle is the most dangerous. Therefore, in the Southern Hemisphere, the NE quadrant is in the safer semi-circle.

 

Since I'm not American and have only worked commercial vessels, I have no idea what O4 is. Is that an officer, PO or rating and how does it identify the department?

 

I haven't commented on your meteorological knowledge, I questioned your erroneous generic statements, such as:

 - There's zero risk of bad weather on a ship if you don't venture out when the forecast is not good. Ship's always incur risk, regardless of whether they sail or remain in port. I outlined my experience of a serious squall in San Juan.

 - Ships are safer at sea if they can get out of harms way. The Viking Sky incident is the classic example of why each situation must be risk assessed and there is NO generic answer, as I experienced too many times during my years in command. I have numerous experiences as a Master, where my vessel was safer remaining in port.

- Cruise ships are too rigid to having to keep to a schedule, they have a choice not to go, but then the cruise line will not like this, so they go anyway. - If the Master is pressured to sail, this is a clear contravention of the ISM Code. Since the Master's authority must be included in the Safety Management System, it would be classed as a major non-conformity, which could negatively impact the cruise line's Document of Compliance (DoC). The DoC is issued to the cruise line and applies to all the vessels. The DoC is an ISM and SOLAS requirement to operate, so if the DoC is cancelled, the cruise line cannot operate any of their vessels. Since my last company completed the ISM process, I have NEVER been pressured to sail against my judgement. Did it happen before ISM - Yes, but not afterwards.

 

 

All right you guys, if you want to get your sextants out and see whose is biggest, I’ll make some popcorn.  Catspaw, how much experience do you have in Alaska and North Pacific waters and how much time as a professional mariner?  What USCG license do you hold?  If you don’t have experience in Alaska, you are theorizing rather than speaking from experience about our weather. 

Edited May 28 by wolfie11

[CruiserBruce]

@Heidi13, in the US Navy, 0-4 is the highest rank of junior officer...which is Lieutenant Commander. 

 

Comparing, O-1 is Ensign, 0-6 is Captain,  and 0-7 starts the ranks of Admiral.