Have you seen today's news on the Mariner

[SLH]

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230 would be far above expectations, and newsworthy.

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Not newsworthy in the least.

 

You have thousands of people in extremely close and confined space all coming into contact with eachother.

 

All of your calculations, percentages, etc. about normal rates of outbreak are not a good comparison because if someone on land were to contract the virus, they'd be quarantined to their home and their contact with others would be drastically limited. On a ship, a person gets it, and they've already gone to the buffet a few times, sat at the dinner table others and come in to contact with hundreds of others.

 

The news and media outlets make mountains out of mole hills. It's a pity the public gobbles it up and makes it into a much bigger issue than it really is. It just makes the media make an even bigger deal of it the next time it happens.

 

If everyone would practice good hygiene, the problem would go away.

 

Howard

I totally agree, if the media didn't make it sound sensational people wouldn't give it a second thought.

[Mamanance]

Some people are just pigs. Not washing your hands after being in the bathroom. YUK. I see it all the time.

 

Then you open the door to go out that she just pulled the handle on. That's why these places have smartened up and put waste baskets beside the doors. Most people that are aware of the pigs, wash their hands and take the towel to the door, open it and then throw it in the waste basket provided. How long does it take to washy your hands? Disgusting.

[kittyg]

That is exactly what I am saying, that on any given day 6% of the people in this country have novovirus type symptoms.

 

If 23 mill get it a year, and there are 300 mill in this country, the ~6% is per year, not any given day.

 

About 442K people are affected each week, and that is about .0015, or .15% each week, not 6.0%. (I'm not going to do by day since the virus lasts several days to a week each occurance).

 

6% is 40x as large as .15%. I'm positive that 6% do not have this on any given day, or our absentee rate at work would be thru the roof, and each of us would miss a 2-3 weeks a year just due to norovirus.

[Mamanance]

All these formulas, are you people mathematicians?

[TPKeller]

All these formulas, are you people mathematicians?

:D

 

[bad Theron ON]Some are better mathematicians than others... Some really need to do some more statistics homework![bad Theron OFF]

[seamama1]

My head is going to explode!!:eek:

[KBD1516]

There are slobs everywhere. We witnessed the same thing on our last Mariner cruise which had a reported 300 plus infected with the virus. The actual number was probably closer to 1000 due to the great number of pax who didn't wish to be quarantined.

 

Families with children, old people, young people...all were observed skipping the hand sanitizers outside the buffet. Maybe they carried their own but I highly doubt it. This all occurred AFTER everyone was aware of the presence of the virus!

 

Of interest, half the singers and dancers had the virus the first day at sea but it was, of course, a passenger who brought the virus with them according to RCI.

 

We got it...the second time in over 20 cruises...and we stayed in our room for 3 days like we were told. We have never had the virus at any other time and we eat out several times a week at buffets, restaurants, ballparks and banquets.

 

Once we have used our noro credit the mass market lines may have seen the last of us.

 

Questions: If someone has symptoms on the first day, didn't they bring it aboard? Takes 2 -3 days to develop symptoms, I think. That's why it is so contagious? Also, what's a "noro credit"?

[AFT_LOVER]

as stated by Purell who invented the hand santizer. Hot water & soap for 30 seconds per washing does! And if inthe bathroom be MONK & use a hand towel to open the doors.

 

 

They have the hand sanitizers there at the front of the line in the buffet area to stop this outbreak. You would think people would know to wash their hands after using the bathroom. I have witnessed many a person who does not....YUCK!

[bpear1600]

Questions: If someone has symptoms on the first day, didn't they bring it aboard? Takes 2 -3 days to develop symptoms, I think. That's why it is so contagious? Also, what's a "noro credit"?

 

I said "first day at sea" and that means the day after sailing to most people.

 

Judging by the number of people in Medical the second day at sea a large number of people started experiencing symptoms after the meal on Monday evening, the night before. I don't know what the incubation period is but it is highly unlikely that half the show crew and a couple of hundred pax brought the bug aboard.

 

RCI gave us a credit for time spent in our cabin under quarantine to be used on a future cruise. I call it a noro credit. These are numbered pre-printed certificates RCI uses for pax with "issues" according to RCI CSReps. The issue is usually norovirus.

[kittyg]

All these formulas, are you people mathematicians?

 

I suppose I could be called one. I have a BS in math, a BS in statistics, (also a BS in computer science but that is irrelevant for this discussion) and I completed my MS in statistics up to the thesis, which I never did as I became a mom and stopped school. I'm employed as an engineer mostly in math and statistics.

 

However, I am not a scientist, and am not an expert on the nuances of this particular virus such as whether it occurs more often to random individuals or if it tends to groups. If I knew that, I would have a better opinion on whether this was expected or outside the norm.

[wrp96]

Brilliance of the Seas had an outbreak of something, probably norovirus, when we were on in May. They are still using the hand sanitisers on board. Remember that a ship is a floating petri dish.....people bring stuff onboard, and probably some seniors who come on from retirement homes bring some of it along. Things pass through the air conditioning systems. Norovirus and nursing homes are a pair! If you wash your hands, use the sanitisers and take care handling railings and stuff, there's no reason to worry.:)

 

Think about all the stuff you could contract flying!!!! :eek::D

 

Fran in Toronto

 

Actually Brilliance uses the handsanitzers all the time. They had them on my February cruise and there were no outbreaks at that time. Serenade had them as well and there were no outbreaks. Once again the best protection is wash your hands with hot water and soap - and scrubbing your hands as you wash. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't take the time to wash their hands.

[rubrrick]

I think the hand sanitizers are antibacterial, so they would be ineffective against Norovirus. But I agree with you about the YUCK - every time I'm in a crowded ladies' room (after a show usually), at least a quarter of the women will decide that it's not worth the "bother" to say "excuse me" to get through the line and wash their hands. And I'll bet the men's room isn't any better.:eek:

 

Jean........you are right!!! The men are probably worse than the women, and then there is the door knob you have to grab to get out of the restroom.

 

Keep you hands away from your face, wash your hands often, and use the hand sanitizers as well. It's all for your own protection!!!:)

 

Rick

[nedleycan]

We were scheduled to be on the cancelled Disney Cruise in November 2003 (I think). The previous week they had an outbreak (we called it Norwalk virus..., not Norovirus), so they cancelled our cruise (first time ever) 3 days before the cruise! But, we managed to get on the 4-day Disney cruise (not cancelled) and got a 50% off credit for any week in the following year (at the cheapest price we could find! It was great!). The same week, an entire city near Toronto (where we live) was practically shut down with the virus.

 

I agree that 200 people is not a lot, and not newsworthy (although they HAVE to report it). I do NOT use the sanitizers, but wash my hands religiously. The sanitizers also get rid of good bacteria, so I do not believe in using it. Plus, Norwalk is viral.

 

People need to wash there hands, and we never touched the handrails in the elevator, or on the stairways. We had to tell our kids too. We were all fine.

[PelicanBill]

they get out the hand cleaning stations too late... after there is a problem. They should be out all the time for all cruises.

 

I was sick on Carnival Glory along with hundreds of others... I had a good medicine assortment with me and I just hunkered down for a day,, then kept my distance from others. That one was never reported to the CDC.. so I suspect there are many ships with noro outbreaks that do not get reported.

 

It spreads by surface contact. I think the cruise lines are quick to blame passengers getting on sick and slow to take responsibility for crew harboring it as they live in close quarters and also for rigorous food handling. Burger King has better sanitation procedures. I watched people prepare cold foods without gloves all the time... including a guy who pushed maraschino cherries into the center of halves of grapefruits... with his bare thumb. Also noticed that crew handles all your silverware with their bare hands, rolling them into napkins.

 

When you think about it, what surfaces do you touch the most on ships? Railings, elevators, deck chairs... utensils, glasses, food. Given it takes 34 hours (median) to incubate, it would take a LONG time to spread to hundreds of passengers from one or two other sick passengers. It seems much more likely that it is already present in the environment, spread around by crew and former passengers... otherwise it could not reach outbreak inside of a week so fast!

[grvdggr71]

A few interesting points from the CDC:

 

Norovirus is the second-most prevalent illness in the US behind a common cold.

 

A norovirus outbreak must be reported on a cruise ship when 3% of the people onboard being sick. (For the Carnival Glory, this would be 124 people or more, based on the passenger and crew numbers here on Cruise Critic).

 

From July 1997 to July of 2000, there were 232 norovirus outbreaks. 10% of these outbreaks were on cruise ships or at vacation destinations. 13% came from schools, and 36% came from restaurants or catered meals. What's interesting is this measures outbreaks, not the number of people infected at each outbreak. Although only 10% of outbreaks occurred on cruises or vacation settings, a much higher percentage of total infected people probably contracted the virus on a cruise. This is due to the confined space and recycled air aboard the ship. The same thing would likely happen on a plane if you were flying a plane for 7 days straight.

 

The CDC also notes that at least 50% of all foodborne gastroenteritis is caused by norovirus. This means that if you have ever gotten sick after eating food (food poisoning, even the stomach flu), half of those times were caused by norovirus.

 

A final interesting note is that it is thought that as few as 10 viral particles could cause infection. That is not many particles at all. Old fashioned soap and water will work best (remember to clean those nails). Hand sanitizer will work in its place. Although hand sanitizers are marketed as antibiotic (which is useless against viruses), it is primarily alcohol based. A large alcohol concentration is effective against viruses (and is used in science labs as a disinfectant).

[droseball]

I can attest to the fact that the "hand sanitizer" that we used the entire week this past week (the infected ship....Mariner) was pretty much pure alcohol. It was not your basic purell or one of the other common sanitizers. It was like liquid alcohol. Also, it was out from day one of the cruise and not just after the outbreak.

 

Denise