Cruising With A Service Dog....everything You Ever Wanted To Know!

[guitarest]

ROZ I feel so bad for you, dont take it too hard. You had no idea nor did your niece that this was going to happen. Mr Horton should come out of this OK if its a little scratch and I agree about not letting the two dogs meet again. Maybe you can help your niece with socialization of her dog?

 

I feel so bad that this happened to ya....

 

A small update about the local gvt agency and Blitz. I sent a non-confrontational email to the woman and her boss and on Tuesday I received a phone call from the director of the office. I told him again I wasn't looking for any special favors or even looking to run to a lawyer since my rights were abused. So many run straight to a attorney in this area looking to turn a misunderstanding into a cash cow. They asked me to apply and offered to meet with both Blitz and I when we drop off the paperwork. This man (and their attorney on the same call) could not have thanked me any more times than what they did for my service to this country etc.... I was really happy with the out come of this situation and they both admitted it was a learning experience to the department also since I was the first to volunteer and having a disability. Thanks again for letting me vent here......

 

Another Update, I spoke with HUD today and they are hoping to have my investigation resolved on Friday with the Apartment Corp that illegally evicted me because Blitz was a "dangerous breed" and that was more important than the ADA. Now this assumption that the GSD was a dangerous breed was not scientifically supported nor does the AKC support that list. Also not even to today has Blitz even shown teeth to any human or animal except for a casual gnat or fly.

Edited April 19, 2012 by guitarest

[rangeley]

I agree that a federal service dog registry might help.

 

But, not everyone who has a service dog lives in the US. Not all people who cruise with a service dog come from the US.

 

If it became a requirement for all service dogs to be registered on this federal register, what will happen about people from other countries who wish to cruise with their service dog?

 

I think your idea is good, and it would weed out the fake service dogs, but it is too exclusive.

 

This is a particular soapbox of mine - the fact that most people on CC come from the USA makes the slant of the boards very US-centric. CC is an international web site, so please don't forget those of us who are not from the USA.

 

Stepping down from my soapbox now. Thank you for listening. :)

 

 

I meant it for the US, but every country should have a registry. I'm sure other places have the same problems as we do here.

[rangeley]

Hello all! We just returned from a "land" trip to Walt Disney World. I wanted to share this picture of Ollie and my husband on Dumbo. Just look at that dog's face!

I think the picture is going to be huge. Sorry about that if it is.

 

Cool pic! I don't know how you got that dog to do that.

[rangeley]

 

 

Absolutely love this!!!!

[rangeley]

Horton and I went to a family event at my niece's house this past Sunday and my niece asked if she could introduce her dog, a Pit Bull/Lab mix, named Dexter to Horton. I quizzed her on her dog's behavior and asked her to put a leash on him first. I had a leash on Horty and stood by as she walked her dog over to Horty and Dexter promptly growled and grabbed Horty's face. She pulled him back and upon first examination of Horty I saw nothing and asked her to put him back outside.

 

Later, when I was placing Horton into my car and the sun was shining on his face I noticed a cut under his left eye........I was mortified. I went home, washed his wound and put some anti-bacterial cream on it. It's not really deep but it's obvious that the dog's teeth did cut into his flesh, grab some fur and leave a scratch.

 

I will NEVER allow Dexter near Horton again and will be seeing this same niece at a Baby Shower this weekend - Do I say anything to her or just drop it? It didn't feel right from the beginning and I have only myself to blame for it.......I really have to learn to trust my instincts and I should have said "no" from the beginning! A live and learn moment!!!!

 

Brenda came to me with many nicks and scratches on her [the woman who she first went home with would run into her with her wheel chair] which left my Brenny with lots of scars on her elbows. Horton has absolutely not one scratch on him, his fur is pristeen and to think that he'll have a scar on his face because I was stupid makes me feel terrible!

 

OMG Roz, How aweful! Did she say that the dog was ok with other dogs? It probably wasn't the first time the dog has been aggressive. Poor Horty. I would say something to her, just try to say it nice if you can. :D

[rangeley]

Today we are selling dog cookies at Fenway Park (Boston Red Sox in case you didn't know). It's the 100th anniversary of the park. They are having an open house for the public today. We will be working with the girl scouts. Hope we will get a tour of the park and meet some players. Tomorrow we will be doing the same and will get to see the Sox-Yankee game after. GO SOX!!!!

[Algebralovr]

Hello, I've tried to wade through the over 360 pages of posts here and wow! There is so much info and I'm having a hard time finding what I need. I'm hoping that some of you can direct me to where I can have the info I need.

 

I own rental property and some LL's and I were having a discussion about service animals. I found a faq about them but that doesn't address my question.

 

Recently, the question was raised about emotional support animals. Now, I understand that a fully trained service animal is allowed into a rental with no question, that I'm not allowed to charge an additional fee (although I am allowed to inspect the property for damage regularly and to bill for any damage caused by the animal, but that is true of people with children as well). I also understand that while I cannot ask the nature of the person's disability, I am allowed to ask what kind of support the animal provides.

 

I also understand that while there are organizations that train animals, not all individuals with service animals get their assistants from these organizations and that some people actually train their animals themselves.

 

This is where the questions arise. Is a puppy (and I specifically mean a young dog) that is not yet trained, and may not even be housebroken (!) considered a service animal, even an emotional support animal? If the human claims it is a service animal in training, does that person/animal have the same rights as a human/animal pair who are fully trained?

 

In general, I allow small pets that are generally caged and well trained dogs into my property. When I am asked about dogs, I always ask for the age of the dog, and I want them to be at least 2 years old. I ask for vet info and proof that the local license has been paid, and I ask to meet the dog. Good responsible pet owners never argue, give me the info I ask for, bring the dog along to meet me and they invite me over to their place. I love those tenants and I often keep them for years at a time.

 

I have an issue right now, however, where some kind of case manager is arguing that an animal is a service animal. It is an emotional support dog in this case. In fact, the dog is a puppy, not yet trained and violates all my usual rules. When I asked for something from a physician it was refused.

 

Can anyone point me toward some documentation?

 

I appreciate that dogs can be a great support for some of you, but this guy is giving SDs a bad name.

 

Roz, you seem very knowledgeable and passionate about SA and I'm hoping you or someone else can provide me some links.

 

Sorry this is off topic about cruising, but it looked like there were a lot of non-cruise posts in this thread. :)

[wizard-of-roz]

Roz,

 

I feel for you but please don't be too hard on yourself or your niece. She asked before introducing the two dogs and you were right to ask that they both be leashed. It didn't work out well but no one was seriously injured.

 

Think of it as like when you were raising your kids--having to decide the right balance between protecting them and allowing them to live in the real world where disappointment, nicks and scratches are a part of life. Heck, we've all got our scratches and dents and that's what makes us unique.

 

I don't know your niece but I'm guessing she feels terrible about what happened. If it was me, I'd acknowledge what happened when you see her this weekend. Something along the lines of "I wish it had worked out better when Horton and Dexter met and we should obviously keep them apart from now on but I appreciate that you asked me before introducing them and I'm glad no one was seriously hurt." Depending on how well you get along with your niece, some recommendations for socialization classes for Dexter might be helpful.

 

Kathi

 

Kathi, ALWAYS the voice of reason.

I definitely will suggest that Michlle get Dexter some "socialization" lessons. It was an accident and again I should have responded "no" to her request for their meeting beause I really didn't know her dog well and obviously, neither did she!

Thanks for your welcoming input!

[wizard-of-roz]

ROZ I feel so bad for you, dont take it too hard. You had no idea nor did your niece that this was going to happen. Mr Horton should come out of this OK if its a little scratch and I agree about not letting the two dogs meet again. Maybe you can help your niece with socialization of her dog?

 

I feel so bad that this happened to ya....

 

A small update about the local gvt agency and Blitz. I sent a non-confrontational email to the woman and her boss and on Tuesday I received a phone call from the director of the office. I told him again I wasn't looking for any special favors or even looking to run to a lawyer since my rights were abused. So many run straight to a attorney in this area looking to turn a misunderstanding into a cash cow. They asked me to apply and offered to meet with both Blitz and I when we drop off the paperwork. This man (and their attorney on the same call) could not have thanked me any more times than what they did for my service to this country etc.... I was really happy with the out come of this situation and they both admitted it was a learning experience to the department also since I was the first to volunteer and having a disability. Thanks again for letting me vent here......

 

Another Update, I spoke with HUD today and they are hoping to have my investigation resolved on Friday with the Apartment Corp that illegally evicted me because Blitz was a "dangerous breed" and that was more important than the ADA. Now this assumption that the GSD was a dangerous breed was not scientifically supported nor does the AKC support that list. Also not even to today has Blitz even shown teeth to any human or animal except for a casual gnat or fly.

 

I'm so glad that your life is coming together so well for you.

[wizard-of-roz]

Cool pic! I don't know how you got that dog to do that.

 

Okay, Cindy, doesn't this picture look like John? At first I thought it was him.

[wizard-of-roz]

OMG Roz, How aweful! Did she say that the dog was ok with other dogs? It probably wasn't the first time the dog has been aggressive. Poor Horty. I would say something to her, just try to say it nice if you can. :D

 

I promise this will NEVER happen again. I learned my lesson!

I am going to say something, in a very nice way because I do want to keep a relationship with Michelle, dispite her dumb dog!!!!!

[wizard-of-roz]

Today we are selling dog cookies at Fenway Park (Boston Red Sox in case you didn't know). It's the 100th anniversary of the park. They are having an open house for the public today. We will be working with the girl scouts. Hope we will get a tour of the park and meet some players. Tomorrow we will be doing the same and will get to see the Sox-Yankee game after. GO SOX!!!!

 

I live way over here in L.A. and I've always loved the White Sox....they're a class act! I agree - GO SOX!!!!!!

[wizard-of-roz]

Hello, I've tried to wade through the over 360 pages of posts here and wow! There is so much info and I'm having a hard time finding what I need. I'm hoping that some of you can direct me to where I can have the info I need.

 

I own rental property and some LL's and I were having a discussion about service animals. I found a faq about them but that doesn't address my question.

 

Recently, the question was raised about emotional support animals. Now, I understand that a fully trained service animal is allowed into a rental with no question, that I'm not allowed to charge an additional fee (although I am allowed to inspect the property for damage regularly and to bill for any damage caused by the animal, but that is true of people with children as well). I also understand that while I cannot ask the nature of the person's disability, I am allowed to ask what kind of support the animal provides.

 

I also understand that while there are organizations that train animals, not all individuals with service animals get their assistants from these organizations and that some people actually train their animals themselves.

 

This is where the questions arise. Is a puppy (and I specifically mean a young dog) that is not yet trained, and may not even be housebroken (!) considered a service animal, even an emotional support animal? If the human claims it is a service animal in training, does that person/animal have the same rights as a human/animal pair who are fully trained?

 

In general, I allow small pets that are generally caged and well trained dogs into my property. When I am asked about dogs, I always ask for the age of the dog, and I want them to be at least 2 years old. I ask for vet info and proof that the local license has been paid, and I ask to meet the dog. Good responsible pet owners never argue, give me the info I ask for, bring the dog along to meet me and they invite me over to their place. I love those tenants and I often keep them for years at a time.

 

I have an issue right now, however, where some kind of case manager is arguing that an animal is a service animal. It is an emotional support dog in this case. In fact, the dog is a puppy, not yet trained and violates all my usual rules. When I asked for something from a physician it was refused.

 

Can anyone point me toward some documentation?

 

I appreciate that dogs can be a great support for some of you, but this guy is giving SDs a bad name.

 

Roz, you seem very knowledgeable and passionate about SA and I'm hoping you or someone else can provide me some links.

 

Sorry this is off topic about cruising, but it looked like there were a lot of non-cruise posts in this thread. :)

 

I suggest you defer to the IAADP [international Assoc. of Assistance Dog Partners] 888-54-IAADP - www.iaadp.org.

They are a wonderful org. with all the information about SD laws/Puppies in Training and regulations regarding them.

I'm pretty sure you DO NOT have to allow a "Puppy-in-training" into your rental. Puppies in training do not have the same rights and are not covered under the ADA. Although, most business's will allow them in as long as they're wearing they're cape, are under good control and are acting appropriately. They don't have to if the handler is acting irresponsibly [that holds true for all SD's and their handler's.]

Emotional Support dogs have the right to live in a rental apartment/home and are covered under the ADA but do not have the right to go into the public venue.

The laws are complicated and can be confusing. That said, if you have a tenant who refuses to give you paperwork from their doctor/training org. stating that their dog is an Emtional Support dog/Hearing or Service Dog then you may refuse them rental status.

You're clear on what you may ask the prospective tenant and it seems that you are more than fair about it. I always lean on the side of the Service Dog owner in their effort to gain entrance into society [especially when they've dotted all their "i's" and crossed all their "t's."] But, when someone is acting secretive and not forthcoming in answering fair questions and submitting paperwork for their SD, I, too, want to tell them, "good luck, enjoy your pet but not in my home or building!"

I hope I've been helpful. And, if I've gotten something wrong, there are wonderful folks on this forum who will let us all know.

[guitarest]

While your correct about the Service dog in training, its also a very gray and shaded area of the ADA. Since no one actually certifies when a dog is "Trained" and it being a emotional support who is willing to have the letter of the law turned on them? I would suspect if the individual is not being secretive and if its a self trained animals which there are thousands; its a personal call. One that could result in a HUD investigation. My advice would be if the tenant has the proper paperwork from his doctor, and the animal is going to puppy classes like STAR or C9GC and graduates its a tenant that intends on training the pup for its intended duties. Blitz was something very similar to this situation; and he did attend puppy training classes and he also has had advanced training through his breeder and is very much a dog I would put up to compare against other dogs in his training.

 

So the letter of the law says one thing; yet since there are no guide lines when to say the dog is no longer in training since no real certification process be very careful. I do agree with Roz if the tenant is being secretive or just avoiding the situation then chances are really good its just a pet.

 

I did not post this to offend any one of my friends here, please do not be mad at me Roz. Just offering another opinion.

Edited April 19, 2012 by guitarest

[wizard-of-roz]

While your correct about the Service dog in training, its also a very gray and shaded area of the ADA. Since no one actually certifies when a dog is "Trained" and it being a emotional support who is willing to have the letter of the law turned on them? I would suspect if the individual is not being secretive and if its a self trained animals which there are thousands; its a personal call. One that could result in a HUD investigation. My advice would be if the tenant has the proper paperwork from his doctor, and the animal is going to puppy classes like STAR or C9GC and graduates its a tenant that intends on training the pup for its intended duties. Blitz was something very similar to this situation; and he did attend puppy training classes and he also has had advanced training through his breeder and is very much a dog I would put up to compare against other dogs in his training.

 

So the letter of the law says one thing; yet since there are no guide lines when to say the dog is no longer in training since no real certification process be very careful. I do agree with Roz if the tenant is being secretive or just avoiding the situation then chances are really good its just a pet.

 

I did not post this to offend any one of my friends here, please do not be mad at me Roz. Just offering another opinion.

 

All opinions are welcome and should be forthcoming.

When a puppy is given to a puppyraiser it stays in their home until it's about 1 year to 14 months of age. Then it turned into the Org. for "advanced training" until it's about 2 to 2 1/2 years old. The dog is put through a lot of challenges to make sure that it's ready to go out into the world with a civilian. The graduated dog must be "invisible" when out in public.

That means; no groweling/barking/nipping or acting badly in any way. If a dog exhibits any of the above behavior it's pulled from the program. Even licking and scratching in public is considered offensive. Of course some of the behavior is so normal at home.....if you would see how Horton loves to roll over on his back and just wiggle his body all over the rug and then he has to check-out all his body parts to make sure he didn't leave anything behind at work.

I NEVER let him lick or scratch when we're in a restaurant and he loves to do that [such a teenage boy!]......he'll just look at me when he's beginning his "body expedition" and he knows he better wait until he gets in the car!!!!!

And, fear of me getting angry with you is a good thing!!!!! Just kidding!!!!! ;)

Edited April 19, 2012 by wizard-of-roz

[Algebralovr]

Thanks for the website referral. Looks like the dog in training is not covered if it does not yet have basic manners.

 

Guess it all depends on whether I want to risk the potential legal fees. I think I'll use the web site as ammo, along with the ADA FAQ. Time for documentation that animal is needed or out they both go. Since the animal is not trained, it is a pet. While it may be a service animal at some point, it is not presently such. As a result, a pet fee is due to cover the additional wear and tear (cause it has already chewed woodwork).

 

I'm more annoyed about them sneaking it in than anything else. Well, that and giving people with well behaved animals a bad name. I understand that dogs are actually meant to be working animals - ever seen a real shephard dog at work? Amazing!

 

Thanks a bunch for the help!

[guitarest]

Thanks for the website referral. Looks like the dog in training is not covered if it does not yet have basic manners.

 

Guess it all depends on whether I want to risk the potential legal fees. I think I'll use the web site as ammo, along with the ADA FAQ. Time for documentation that animal is needed or out they both go. Since the animal is not trained, it is a pet. While it may be a service animal at some point, it is not presently such. As a result, a pet fee is due to cover the additional wear and tear (cause it has already chewed woodwork).

 

I'm more annoyed about them sneaking it in than anything else. Well, that and giving people with well behaved animals a bad name. I understand that dogs are actually meant to be working animals - ever seen a real shephard dog at work? Amazing!

 

Thanks a bunch for the help!

 

I agree 100% with you, in my situation I let the property owners know about blitz a few months before he was even ready to become a helper. If your tenant just tried to sneak him in odds are really then that using Roz's example is whats needs to happen. I know in my situation I often warn people about Blitz before I go anywhere "official" to warn them not that I am required but because its just being proper and polite to warn people about a 96lb German Shepherd.

 

If the tenant just sneaked him in request a copy of the paperwork from the doctor and also as required by the ADA a document called a "Letter of Accommodation" should have already been presented to you before this puppy showed up. Also you can contact HUD in your area and speak with their office and tell them whats going on; this way its HUD who is taking the legal risk and if its not a documented case of a medical need HUD will find out real quick and in a hurry.

[Latitude 20]

Hello, I've tried to wade through the over 360 pages of posts here and wow! There is so much info and I'm having a hard time finding what I need. I'm hoping that some of you can direct me to where I can have the info I need.

 

I own rental property and some LL's and I were having a discussion about service animals. I found a faq about them but that doesn't address my question.

 

Recently, the question was raised about emotional support animals. Now, I understand that a fully trained service animal is allowed into a rental with no question, that I'm not allowed to charge an additional fee (although I am allowed to inspect the property for damage regularly and to bill for any damage caused by the animal, but that is true of people with children as well). I also understand that while I cannot ask the nature of the person's disability, I am allowed to ask what kind of support the animal provides.

 

I also understand that while there are organizations that train animals, not all individuals with service animals get their assistants from these organizations and that some people actually train their animals themselves.

 

This is where the questions arise. Is a puppy (and I specifically mean a young dog) that is not yet trained, and may not even be housebroken (!) considered a service animal, even an emotional support animal? If the human claims it is a service animal in training, does that person/animal have the same rights as a human/animal pair who are fully trained?

 

In general, I allow small pets that are generally caged and well trained dogs into my property. When I am asked about dogs, I always ask for the age of the dog, and I want them to be at least 2 years old. I ask for vet info and proof that the local license has been paid, and I ask to meet the dog. Good responsible pet owners never argue, give me the info I ask for, bring the dog along to meet me and they invite me over to their place. I love those tenants and I often keep them for years at a time.

 

I have an issue right now, however, where some kind of case manager is arguing that an animal is a service animal. It is an emotional support dog in this case. In fact, the dog is a puppy, not yet trained and violates all my usual rules. When I asked for something from a physician it was refused.

 

Can anyone point me toward some documentation?

 

I appreciate that dogs can be a great support for some of you, but this guy is giving SDs a bad name.

 

Roz, you seem very knowledgeable and passionate about SA and I'm hoping you or someone else can provide me some links.

 

Sorry this is off topic about cruising, but it looked like there were a lot of non-cruise posts in this thread. :)

 

Hi Algebralovr,

 

No worries about being "off-topic." Far as I'm concerned everything is on-topic as "something to distract me until I can take another cruise!" :D

 

I'm a paralegal and did some research on this exact issue for a CLE seminar last year. That said, I'm offering these resources as a member of this discussion group and not as legal advice. I encourage you to contact an attorney in your state for further information.

 

I'm assuming you're a private landlord so the applicable rules are found in the Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988 administered by the Department of Housing and Urban Development (http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/FHLaws/yourrights). A very good FAQ on the issue by the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law is online at http://www.bazelon.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=mHq8GV0FI4c%3d&tabid=245.

 

Roz and Jocko have given you some great information so I'll just point out a few additional things:

 

>>By definition, emotional support animals are not task-trained. They assist their owners simply by existing. This is different than a psychiatric service animal which is task-trained to ameliorate its handler's mental health disability (for example, doing room searches for a handler with PTSD or recognizing and leading to safety a person with disassociative episodes). The simple way to think of this is service animals are needed for what they do and emotional support animals are needed for who they are. Psychiatric service animals are allowed the same access as any other service animal; emotional support animals are not allowed public access but are allowed in "no pets" housing and to travel in airplane cabins.

 

>>Emotional support animals are generally allowed the same access to housing as service animals. As the Bazelon article points out, this means that landlords must make reasonable accommodations and generally can't pre-emptively charge a pet deposit. But landlords can require both emotional support and service animals to be reasonably well-behaved by pet standards. This means the animal is fully toilet-trained and has no bad habits that would disturb neighbors such is frequent or lengthy episodes of barking. The animal should not pose a danger to other tenants or to workmen.

 

>>Again, in the Bazelon article it says "In the event that a tenant's assistive animal does cause significant damage, that tenant should certainly be held financially liable." Whether it rises to an evictable offense is an issue you should definitely take up with an attorney.

 

>>Finally, these are just the federal regulations. Your state or local authorities may have laws that provide additional access for emotional support animals.

 

Hope this helps,

Kathi

[rangeley]

Yet again another reason for a federal registry.

[rangeley]

We had a great time yesterday and sold alot of dog cookies for CCI and the girl scouts. There was about 5 dogs there and a ton of people! John and Wexler were awesome. John can talk and Wex can put on a show. We will be doing it again today for an actual game. We will sell cookies before the game and until the third inning, then we will get seats for the rest of the game. Its Sox-Yankees so the park will be packed. By the time we got home yesterday, we were exhausted. Poor Wex was so tired. Poor doggie. :(

[wizard-of-roz]

Thanks for the website referral. Looks like the dog in training is not covered if it does not yet have basic manners.

 

Guess it all depends on whether I want to risk the potential legal fees. I think I'll use the web site as ammo, along with the ADA FAQ. Time for documentation that animal is needed or out they both go. Since the animal is not trained, it is a pet. While it may be a service animal at some point, it is not presently such. As a result, a pet fee is due to cover the additional wear and tear (cause it has already chewed woodwork).

 

I'm more annoyed about them sneaking it in than anything else. Well, that and giving people with well behaved animals a bad name. I understand that dogs are actually meant to be working animals - ever seen a real shephard dog at work? Amazing!

 

Thanks a bunch for the help!

 

I'm sorry for your aggravation and the confrontation that lays ahead for you....it's not pleasant to have to remove someone with an animal. It's not the animals fault and irresponsible owners make me nuts!!!!!!

Yes, I've seen a German Shepherd in working mode and it's pure magic.

Good luck and please come back and let us know how it went.

[guitarest]

 

Yes, I've seen a German Shepherd in working mode and it's pure magic.

 

 

I sooooooooooooo agree with you. I happen to know a person with a German Shepherd; not a bad guy at all; the fog is pretty cool also............ lol

Edited April 20, 2012 by guitarest

[wizard-of-roz]

I sooooooooooooo agree with you. I happen to know a person with a German Shepherd; not a bad guy at all; the fog is pretty cool also............ lol

 

 

Do you now!!!! I know a few myself and like everyone of them!

[guitarest]

dog not fog,,,,, duh

[wizard-of-roz]

I am so angry at myself for not taking better care and for letting my niece's dog be introduced to Horton. The scratch on his face is so "there" as a reminder to me. Geeeezzz, if you can't trust your relatives who can you trust?

Actually, it reminds of when my kids were very little and one of my new neighbors asked if she could bring her little, "darling" over to meet my little one. [They were both about 4 years old.] The little imp promptly bit my child on the shoulder, so hard that it left a scar for years. :( Needless to say that woman and her "no-neck-monster" were never invited back and we never became friends either!!!! But, my Lisa who is way over 4 today and I NEVER forgot the incident!