Cruise Value Center agency went under...

[chwawa]

When I posted my thread a while back as I was upset about HAL not coming through with the agreed on service, I was "jumped on" by many on this board for having " too much time on my hands" for contacting the BBB, for filing a report on the internet, for looking up "ripoff.com" , for looking up articles on complaints with HAL..............all because I was upset over my treatment and lack of response from anybody at Guest Services. I was also told "anybody knows that you should use a TA"

Now I view this thread , and some of the very people who were chastising me, are certainly spending a lot of time doing the SAME thing.

As I said in that thread at the time ...........I was certainly hoping that you all would not experience anything bad in your bookings.

I sincerely do hope all of you get your problems resolved. I would not want you to endure the nastiness I experienced from many on this board. But those of you who did jump on me , now you know what it feels like. And I am sure you don't need anybody to say you are "going balistic" or that you are acting irrational, when all you are trying to do is express a misfortune.

I hope everybody learns from this thread.:(

[CowPrincess]

chwawa, there is a vast difference between your situation, and the situation many in this thread now find themselves in. I cannot honestly believe there is any correlation between the closing of this TA and your situation. The fact that you felt it necessary and/or advisable to participate in this thread indicates IMHO a lack of good judgment on your part. Again, IMHO only, your post seems to be seizing an opportuntiy to gloat.

 

Ah well, pretty sure MY post will go POOF

[MadManOfBethesda]

You don't understand why these people should not be prosecuted and in jail??? You are not following what was going on. They took peoples credit cards and instead of paying the cruise line (which should have been done THAT DAY), they paid the monies to themselves and never paid the suppliers or cruise lines. Even former employees have posted that they were instructed to take payments through Pay Pal. These people belong in jail.

 

I have been following what has been going on. I also tried to explain to you that this happens every day somewhere in the U.S.

 

This is no different than when a furniture store goes out of business and people who have paid a substantial deposit for furniture on order are out a significant amount of money.

 

This is no different than when a home builder goes out of business and the people who paid a sizable deposit on a house to be built or in the process of being built are out a significant amount of money.

 

This is no different than when a retail store goes out of business and people who have store credits or gift cards lose the amount of money on those cards.

 

Businesses abruptly close up shop owing numerous creditors substantial sums of money all of the time. That is not a crime.

 

Unless the owners of the travel agency took the money and converted it to their own use, there is no crime here. At least not from the facts that have been reported to this point in time.

 

I can understand the emotional response of "put the crooks in jail!" However, to do so, you must have all elements of a crime in place, including intent to commit a criminal act. So far, we do not have that.

[serendipity1499]

chwawa, there is a vast difference between your situation, and the situation many in this thread now find themselves in. I cannot honestly believe there is any correlation between the closing of this TA and your situation. The fact that you felt it necessary and/or advisable to participate in this thread indicates IMHO a lack of good judgment on your part. Again, IMHO only, your post seems to be seizing an opportuntiy to gloat. Ah well, pretty sure MY post will go POOF

 

Cowprincess we are in agreement!

Chwawa I can't believe that you would even think that your complaint about HAL not coming through with what one of their Agents may have omitted or misquoted on the phone is anything like this case where a Travel Agent actually stole Money from their clients & did not give their employees a final paycheck...

And I agree, that you are shamefully using the misfortune of those who lost their jobs & those who lost a great deal of money to gloat only because many on this board did not completely agree with you...I'm always amazed at this type of vindictiveness...:mad:

 

To those Agents who lost their Jobs & have not received their final paychecks & those passengers who lost so much $$$, I'm so sorry that you are going through this.. I hope that you will be able to recoup some of your loss & continue to enjoy your cruises...

Since we leave Friday for two weeks I'll wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving..

Betty

[fann1sh]

MadManofBethesda, while nothing we say on this board will make the slightest difference to whether there are prosecutions, I respectfully disagree on one issue.

 

When someone puts a deposit on furniture, it's the furniture retailer who's providing the goods. If they go broke before they supply the furniture, they've broken a contract.

 

However, when a travel agency accepts money, it's not for a service they themselves provide. These funds are supposed to go directly to the cruise line, just as soon as the money is paid.

 

In essence, these deposits/payments are trust funds. There's a duty to treat this money in a different way. Using sacrosanct trust money may be all the mens rea ("guilty mind") needed for this to constitute a crime, rather than a broken civil contract.

 

It would sure wind a lawyer in the pokey (says the ex-lawyer).

[Jade13]

I have been following what has been going on. I also tried to explain to you that this happens every day somewhere in the U.S.

 

This is no different than when a furniture store goes out of business and people who have paid a substantial deposit for furniture on order are out a significant amount of money.

 

This is no different than when a home builder goes out of business and the people who paid a sizable deposit on a house to be built or in the process of being built are out a significant amount of money.

 

This is no different than when a retail store goes out of business and people who have store credits or gift cards lose the amount of money on those cards.

 

Businesses abruptly close up shop owing numerous creditors substantial sums of money all of the time. That is not a crime.

 

Unless the owners of the travel agency took the money and converted it to their own use, there is no crime here. At least not from the facts that have been reported to this point in time.

 

I can understand the emotional response of "put the crooks in jail!" However, to do so, you must have all elements of a crime in place, including intent to commit a criminal act. So far, we do not have that.

 

This is a crime.

 

Now if you were referring to guests who will no longer get their perks such as a bottle of champagne or free Pinnacle dinner or even OBC because the TA went out of business than I do agree with you that it may have not been done on purpose. However, again in this case, in most instances the issue is a TA who took peoples credit cards and instead of charging payments to the cruise line charged the money to their own account and did not pay the cruise line. There wasn't any reason. If someone gives a credit card and authorizes payment they expect the TA to make that payment directly to the cruise line. Perhaps someone else can explain this better.

[Jade13]

When I posted my thread a while back as I was upset about HAL not coming through with the agreed on service, I was "jumped on" by many on this board for having " too much time on my hands" for contacting the BBB, for filing a report on the internet, for looking up "ripoff.com" , for looking up articles on complaints with HAL..............all because I was upset over my treatment and lack of response from anybody at Guest Services. I was also told "anybody knows that you should use a TA"

Now I view this thread , and some of the very people who were chastising me, are certainly spending a lot of time doing the SAME thing.

As I said in that thread at the time ...........I was certainly hoping that you all would not experience anything bad in your bookings.

I sincerely do hope all of you get your problems resolved. I would not want you to endure the nastiness I experienced from many on this board. But those of you who did jump on me , now you know what it feels like. And I am sure you don't need anybody to say you are "going balistic" or that you are acting irrational, when all you are trying to do is express a misfortune.

I hope everybody learns from this thread.:(

 

Chwawa, do you honestly think there is some relationship with your canceling a cruise because you would have to pay for a hotel in Venice upon finding out there wasn't a flight available to get you from Vancouver to Venice without an overnight has any relationship with a TA taking peoples credit cards and paying themselves???? (And I want to remind folks that HAL has given Chwawa her non-refundable insurance back in the form of over $600.00 for a future cruise which they are under no obligation to do.)

[serendipity1499]

Madmanof Bethesda...Re your post which stated..

 

Quote Unless the owners of the travel agency took the money and converted it to their own use, there is no crime here. At least not from the facts that have been reported to this point in time. Unquote

 

Doesn't it look like the owners did take the money & convert it to their own use?

Normally when you give a Travel Agent your Credit Card, a reputable Agent would have the Cruise Line put the charge through...Our Deposit & Final Payment was put through by HAL...

 

If this Agent declares Bankruptcy, & it goes into the court system a conservator will be appointed to handle the creditors.. In that case many people will only get pennies on the dollar..

 

I'm retired from an International Airline & have seen several unscrupulous Travel Agents..They are not required to be licensed in most states.. One who had a fantastic reputation with our company, threw lavish Holiday Party's & gave out expensive gifts to our staff & the staff at another Large Airline..He even gave DH & me a 3 day Honeymoon in Aruba as a wedding present..(With my boss's approval) Five years later he left his wife & took off with a new girlfriend to South America still owing lots of money to our Company & his clients..We never got any of that back & eventually he was caught & put in jail...But that happened years later..

 

Can you really blame those who have lost their jobs & others who have lost their hard earned $$$ for not wanting them put in jail..Yes it happens every day, but these crooks should be made to pay..

[MadManOfBethesda]

Madmanof Bethesda...Re your post which stated..

 

Quote Unless the owners of the travel agency took the money and converted it to their own use, there is no crime here. At least not from the facts that have been reported to this point in time. Unquote

 

Doesn't it look like the owners did take the money & convert it to their own use?

 

Normally when you give a Travel Agent your Credit Card, a reputable Agent would have the Cruise Line put the charge through...

 

That's not necessarily true. There is nothing inherently wrong with a travel agency processing the payment and then paying the travel provider the net amount, rather than having the original charge processed by the travel provider. It is a business decision how to handle the transaction (as long as the transaction isn't misrepresented to the customer). Contrary to the many misinformed posters here, there is nothing illegal with that at all. In fact, certain travel agencies do it all the time when they book packages. The customer pays the agency a set amount for the entire package, and the agency pays the hotel, the airline, and the car rental agency directly. The customer then receives a voucher to give to the hotel, for example.

 

To all those people who are claiming that a crime was committed: would you care to provide a cite to any state or federal statute that identifies a a law that was broken?

 

Being insolvent and owing money to creditors is not a crime.

 

Can you really blame those who have lost their jobs & others who have lost their hard earned $$$ for not wanting them put in jail..Yes it happens every day, but these crooks should be made to pay..

 

No, I absolutely understand that emotional response. However, that still doesn't change the basic fact that a crime hasn't been committed. (Again, from what we know at this point in time.)

[CowPrincess]

In my humble (Canadian) opinion, a crime HAS been committed. The travel agency was at the least "holding" funds on behalf of their clients to remit to cruiselines. I'd have thought they'd have been statutorily required to hold the money "in trust", as opposed to putting it into general revenues and covering their rent and payroll with it. If the money is alllll gone, the TA used the money for things other than the intended purpose and I think that is fraud (or conversion).

 

I believe if I took money from someone for the express purpose of buying a car for that person, then used the money for a new hairdo, my utilities, and a manicure, that person could have me charged with theft.

[richnorto]

After getting off subject, the funds should not have been in the same account as general finances and overhead! These monies are required to be in a separate account - at least in some states (probably all) and likely by IRS requirements.

[aussiedisneyfan]

In Australia (or at least all the agencies I have used) you always pay the agency directly and into their account and then they will pass it onto the cruiseline etc. My credit card payments have always shown on my statement as the t/a and not the cruiseline. Most of them also charge at least a 1% credit card surcharge fee as well.

[Jade13]

More Info:

 

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/391/RipOff0391568.htm

Report: Cruise Value Center, Cruises Of Distinction

 

Category: Travel Agencies

Cruise Value Center, Cruises Of Distinction out of business with many cruises not paid in full E BrunswickE.Brunswick, NJ 08816E Brunswick New Jersey

 

Cruise Value Center, Cruises Of Distinction

 

Phone:

Fax:

6 Edgeboro Rd.

E Brunswick, New Jersey, 08816

U.S.A.

Submitted: 11/15/2008 11:18:15 AM

 

Modified: 11/15/2008 11:18:00 AM

Cruise agent

 

Brooklyn, New York

Ripoff Report Verified Safe

On Monday, Nov. 10th 2008 Cruise Value Center and Cruises of Distinction ceased operations. Closed their doors, sent their agents home, and left home based agents in the dark. Commissions and salaries owed will not be paid and those that should have been paid are not going to be paid in the future.

 

The concern is for those clients that have paid for their trips with checks and money orders made out to either of these company's. There is a good chance that this money was never sent in to the cruise lines. If you have received documents or paid by credit card there should be no concern. If you saw the cruise line name on your credit card statements it means the money went to the cruise line. If your credit card statement says anything but the cruise line name, call the cruise line first and immediately after that your credit card company and advise what happened and how to proceed. When you call the cruise line have your cruise line reservation number handy, or ship and sail date.

 

If Cruise Value Center gave you free insurance you might want to make sure that this insurance is intact. Any promise of onboard amenities for booking with them might not appear when you arrive onboard, whether you paid with cc or personal check. CVC would have had to make the payments to the cruise lines and these amenitie might not appear as promised, but if that is the biggest loss consider yourself lucky.

 

Travel insurance can be purchased on line at many different websites put the search word in 'travel insurance' and I am sure there will be many options there.

 

Many people have been affected by the selfishness of these 2 companies.

 

I do not know if the DA of the state of NJ can cease bank accounts or assets, provided there are any, or prosecute for embezzlement. If anyone has a clue about this perhaps a class action suit could be filed.

 

For obvious reasons, I must remain anonymous, but if you start calling the cruise lines they will have protocol of how to proceed.

 

There are many agencies out there that value the business of the public and their good reputations should not be sullied by the outrageous behavior of Cruise Value Center and Cruises of Distinction.

 

Anonymous

Brooklyn, New York

U.S.A.

=================

Cruises of Distinction

 

42557 Woodward Ave

Bloomfield Hills, MI 48304

2483322020

Detailed Cruises Of Distinction Inc Company Profile

 

This company profile is for the private company Cruises Of Distinction Inc, located in Bloomfield Hills, MI. Cruises Of Distinction Inc's line of business is direct marketer of leisure travel.

Company Profile: Cruises Of Distinction Inc

 

Year Started:1994

State of Incorporation:NJ

URL:N/A

Location Type:Single Location

Stock Symbol:N/A

Stock Exchange:N/A

Also Does Business As:N/A

NAICS:N/A

SIC #Code:4724

Est. Annual Sales:$29,000,000

Est. Employees:100

Est. Employees at Location:100

Contact Name:Richard Smith

</span></p> Contact Title:N/A

[ricok987]

No, I absolutely understand that emotional response. However, that still doesn't change the basic fact that a crime hasn't been committed. (Again, from what we know at this point in time.)

A crime was committed at least in 1 case. Two weeks ago (before CVC went belly up) they contacted my dad via email requesting permission to charge his final payment on his February Sailing-10 days early. He replied for them not to do it, and instead make the charge on the correct date. Then last Monday his longtime agent contact at CVC called him to inform him what was going on there-and told him to dispute the cc charge. He then found that his final charge was made, and the funds were diverted to a subsidiary company of CVC via paypal. He was never officially notified of the transaction, nor did he authorize it. The transaction was not ever performed by CVC. Amex is investigating and my dad got the impression the FBI was involved. At any rate, at this time you are correct that there have been no criminal charges filed on this, but that does not mean they will not be forthcomming.

[Jade13]

I just found the form to file a formal complaint to the AG Office in New Jersey. There is also an Email Address listed.

 

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/

http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/

http://www.nj.gov/oag/ca/complaint/ocp.pdf (New Jersey Office of the Attorney General - Complaint Form pdf for store or business.)

E-Mail: AskConsumerAffairs@lps.state.nj.us

[fann1sh]

That's not necessarily true. There is nothing inherently wrong with a travel agency processing the payment and then paying the travel provider the net amount, rather than having the original charge processed by the travel provider. It is a business decision how to handle the transaction (as long as the transaction isn't misrepresented to the customer). Contrary to the many misinformed posters here, there is nothing illegal with that at all. In fact, certain travel agencies do it all the time when they book packages. The customer pays the agency a set amount for the entire package, and the agency pays the hotel, the airline, and the car rental agency directly. The customer then receives a voucher to give to the hotel, for example.

 

To all those people who are claiming that a crime was committed: would you care to provide a cite to any state or federal statute that identifies a a law that was broken?

 

Being insolvent and owing money to creditors is not a crime.

 

 

 

No, I absolutely understand that emotional response. However, that still doesn't change the basic fact that a crime hasn't been committed. (Again, from what we know at this point in time.)

 

 

I find your own reaction more emotional than rational. Ignoring markers of fraud (rather than mere poor business dealings) is typical of people not trained in law. Sadly, in legal practice I encountered people who, to their cost, thought "creative bookkeeping" was a business matter, not a criminal matter. One wound up in jail, and there was nothing I could do to help.

 

Building a case will take months (fraud cases are always the most demanding) and will be done by people with more resources than we can dream of here. If no criminal charges are laid, I suspect that will have more to do with matters unrelated to whether a crime occurred. If they proceed, it will take weeks to decide exactly what charges to prefer (which is why I don't choose to try to research viable NJ options for your benefit). However, "fraud" will lie at the heart of the charges.

 

Can I say at this moment without a reasonable doubt fraud has occurred? No. Does it appear this was criminal fraud rather than poor business practice? Yes.

[Oceanwench]

I find your own reaction more emotional than rational. Ignoring markers of fraud (rather than mere poor business dealings) is typical of people not trained in law. Sadly, in legal practice I encountered people who, to their cost, thought "creative bookkeeping" was a business matter, not a criminal matter. One wound up in jail, and there was nothing I could do to help.

 

Building a case will take months (fraud cases are always the most demanding) and will be done by people with more resources than we can dream of here. If no criminal charges are laid, I suspect that will have more to do with matters unrelated to whether a crime occurred. If they proceed, it will take weeks to decide exactly what charges to prefer (which is why I don't choose to try to research viable NJ options for your benefit). However, "fraud" will lie at the heart of the charges.

 

Can I say at this moment without a reasonable doubt fraud has occurred? No. Does it appear this was criminal fraud rather than poor business practice? Yes.

 

Thank you for posting this.

Looks to me like they took the money and ran ...

They charged my friend's credit card Oct. 10 for the balance of her cruise. It went to CVC, not HAL. Her final payment was due Oct. 30, but HAL never got it. On Nov. 10, CVC shut its doors.

That's a lot more than "poor business practices."

CVC put her cruise in jeopardy by not paying HAL by the final payment deadline. More than a week past deadline, CVC had still not made the payment to HAL.

 

Jade13: thanks so much for the links.

[MadManOfBethesda]

I find your own reaction more emotional than rational. Ignoring markers of fraud (rather than mere poor business dealings) is typical of people not trained in law. Sadly, in legal practice I encountered people who, to their cost, thought "creative bookkeeping" was a business matter, not a criminal matter. One wound up in jail, and there was nothing I could do to help.

 

Building a case will take months (fraud cases are always the most demanding) and will be done by people with more resources than we can dream of here. If no criminal charges are laid, I suspect that will have more to do with matters unrelated to whether a crime occurred. If they proceed, it will take weeks to decide exactly what charges to prefer (which is why I don't choose to try to research viable NJ options for your benefit). However, "fraud" will lie at the heart of the charges.

 

Can I say at this moment without a reasonable doubt fraud has occurred? No. Does it appear this was criminal fraud rather than poor business practice? Yes.

 

Wow. FYI, I have been involved in investigating and prosecuting FWA cases for close to 20 years, but thanks for attempting to educate me on markers of fraud. As a matter of fact, there was a sentencing hearing in one of my cases just this past Friday in a U.S. District Court.

 

Actually, building a fraud case is really not that difficult. All one has to do is follow the money. Conspiracies are difficult. Collusion is difficult. Fraud? Not so much.

 

Now look, you may be absolutely right. This may turn out to be a criminal case. I believe that I even noted in my first post that if they were diverting funds for their own use, they most certainly could be prosecuted. My point all along was to note that the mere fact that the travel agency had credit card charges posted to their own account rather than directly to the cruise line was not in and of itself illegal. In fact, (as I've noted time and time again) it is a routine business practice by some firms. I've also pointed out that firms shut their doors abruptly and then subsequently file for Chapter 7 liquidation on a routine basis. The fact that they do so while owing creditors $1000s or even millions of dollars, does not make it a criminal act. I'm not going to address this again or respond further to this thread.

 

Oh, and BTW, the word you were looking for was proffer, not prefer; however your mistake, (to use your own phrase), "is typical of people not trained in law."

[BalconyBumz]

I worked for cruise value for many years the business closed on 11/10 we had nonotice that this was happening nobody told us a thing till that day the company was purchased last fall by rich and ron smith of cruises of distinction or travel holding entity the business was fine until they took over they started making the payments to pay pal we all disagreed with that they did not care they just seemed like they wanted money there was an employee who stole money but that was over 2 years ago and that had nothing to do with these problems that are occuring now nor is it the economy it was just terrible managmennt by the smith brothers. There were never problems in all the years i worked there when Jeff Kivet owned the company now I am jobless just like all of my fellow employees with no warning we were supposed to be paid today and we didn't receive our paychecks I feel terrible for the people who have lost money and are now having problems and it didn't have anything to do with discounting because if you check and see the company did that for years and was fine............

 

First of all I'm sorry this happened to you and to others involved innocently. I agree with you that it has nothing to do with the discounting that many of these TA's are crying on here about trying to defend their higher pricing and value add bonus it. There are many travel agents that post here on cruise critic and they hate the online agencies and will knock them any chance they get because they cannot match your prices. I refuse to use a regular travel agent because every time I compare prices with my online agencies, they can't touch it. They are very insecure about this and try and twist things any way they can. There is another agency out there just as large as yours in Florida and they are doing completely fine and have even better prices than you had. I agree it was your management crooks.

[Jade13]

First of all I'm sorry this happened to you and to others involved innocently. I agree with you that it has nothing to do with the discounting that many of these TA's are crying on here about trying to defend their higher pricing and value add bonus it. There are many travel agents that post here on cruise critic and they hate the online agencies and will knock them any chance they get because they cannot match your prices. I refuse to use a regular travel agent because every time I compare prices with my online agencies, they can't touch it. They are very insecure about this and try and twist things any way they can. There is another agency out there just as large as yours in Florida and they are doing completely fine and have even better prices than you had. I agree it was your management crooks.

 

Does the FL Agency charge payments directly to the cruise line OR to their own account and then pay the cruise line?

[BalconyBumz]

Does the FL Agency charge payments directly to the cruise line OR to their own account and then pay the cruise line?

Directly to the cruise line, of course! They have been outstanding.

[Jade13]

Directly to the cruise line, of course! They have been outstanding.

 

Do they start with a "B" in Port St. Lucie?

[BalconyBumz]

Yes. ;)

[sail7seas]

Do they start with a "B" in Port St. Lucie?

 

 

Are you still going on your trip, Jade?

[Jade13]

Are you still going on your trip, Jade?

 

Of course.