Bonnie - tours slowed down, sites missed

Bonnie - I've reposted my post from another thread below. I can see that it needs reclarification. My concern is not whether you allow physically challenged on tours. It is whether you allow those with difficulty walking (perhaps those in wheelchairs or walkers) to sign up and be allowed to go on tours labeled as strenuous, many stairs,or stating gravel/rough traverses for example. Posts on CC seem to show that handicapped guests are allowed on these tours by Azamara.

While you said "Azamara Club Cruises welcomes all guests, including those with special needs or disabilities. Here's our page on Accessible Cruising: https://www.azamaraclubcruises.com/life-onboard/accessible-cruising

If you click through to the FAQs link, you'll find our information on Accessible Shore Excursions. We go to great lengths to label all tours according to difficulty. "

https://www.azamaraclubcruises.com/discover/frequently-asked-questions#land-discoveries

it doesn't address whether Azamara allows it.

I have been on Viking tours where on one a husband and wife (in a wheelchair) slowed everyone down, especially after the wife complained loud and often that the tour leader was going too fast for her. On other tours the guide simply slowed down to accommodate the very slow pace of the handicapped families causing the entire group to miss excellent parts of the itinerary.

I do not think it is fair to allow someone on the tour who is incapable of going as fast as everyone else to prevent those who have paid for a full tour, and then only actually get a partial tour.

This is not to disparage handicapped people, I have several relatives who are but to help us decide whether to take certain tours or not. I do not mean to offend anyone.

MY ORIGINAL POST:

Bonnie - we are going on our first Azamara cruise in August. I am distressed to read on this thread that Azamara allows physically challenged guests to sign up for, and go on, strenuous tours. Some here have said that their tour was shortened, and highlights missed because these handicapped people slowed the entire group down.

What is Azamara's policy reference this and could people using a walker (as noted by some) or a wheel chair, be allowed to go on a tour where there is uneven ground, many stairs, gravel pathways, etc. I have been on a Viking tour where a husband and wife (in a wheelchair) slowed everyone down, especially after the wife complained loud and often that the tour leader was going too fast for her. The Viking rep basically told us they did not want to tell the couple they could not go on these tours. No one on the tour was told beforehand that we would be required to see less because of this. Would we be advided prior to the tours we choose? Thank you.

I think it's probably up to the people who sign up. All the excursions have a description about how strenuous they are and what is involved.

 

 

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Hello impala1ss, and welcome to our Azamara forum!

 

Azamara Club Cruises welcomes all guests, including those with special needs or disabilities. Here's our page on Accessible Cruising: https://www.azamaraclubcruises.com/life-onboard/accessible-cruising

 

If you click through to the FAQs link, you'll find our information on Accessible Shore Excursions. We go to great lengths to label all tours according to difficulty. https://www.azamaraclubcruises.com/discover/frequently-asked-questions#land-discoveries

 

Hopefully this answers your concerns. If not, feel free to ask again, but if I may, I'd suggest starting a new thread with a more appropriate title, rather than "Too old to drink." That way others with a similar interest/concerns will participate in the conversation.

 

Thanks for writing, and thank you for choosing Azamara Club Cruises!

I've traveled a lot with my walking challenged mother and now I travel a lot with my walking/balance impaired husband. We generally don't do group tours. Private ones work great, but we have to be selective even with those. Much better if we do our own thing. On our upcoming cruise (next week:-), we signed up for the Azamazing Evening and another with small group of people of CruiseCritic members. The tour company knows his limitations and the people who set up the tour also know of his limitations. It's a long van ride and a boat trip. So it should be easy. My thought is, if we have to seek help, then it's a 'no'. This will be our 3rd Azamazing Evening. The prior ones were not a problem and we caused no slow downs. But my husband can walk. Hopefully people use their own discretion when booking tours that are too physically challenged.

I think you make a very valid point Impala.

I have some walking issues - more particularly I'm not good on high steps in particular and use a cane then. I get embarrassed by the situation so always try and do lots of homework before booking a Land Discoveries tour.

The problem is no one seems to know how strenuous a tour is. There is not accurate information held about tours onboard - anytime you ask, all you get is to see a description from a folder which is the same as the online information. Now I accept sometimes trips are new but many are not.

You often find the designation strenuous is used for just about anything and that gives an issue because there are strenuous trip (based on Azamara's designation) that I hardly notice the effort and there are strenuous trips.

Where there are strenuous portions I want to know is it possible to do say part of the walk or is it one where you are dropped at A and picked up at B. This should be known information to Land Discoveries- I'm assuming someone tests/checks something before it goes into the portfolio.

I do agree there are trips where walkers are a no no and I see descriptions saying that but I see no policing of it. However it is easy for the less able person to avoid detection- partner collects sticker, it's only the tour rep at the door of the bus, they probably are not empowered to say no.....

I would plea for far more information be available about what's actually involved in a tour - if the fancy new products don't have this start getting it, I would be happy to fill in a standard template if I ever did a trip again and I'm sure other less active folks would to. If a more informed classification was used and more information was available this would I am sure help. And yes, onboard staff should be looking out for possible instances where guests are on trips they are not fit for and discussing this with them.

Most people in my situation want to explore but are nervous and get embarrassed if they think they are spoiling it for others. Sadly a few don't care.

And an anecdote- most of us are much more aware of our limits. We were booked on the Petra trip. We tried to get info on the walking because Petra was one big reason we took the cruise. Staff from Land Discoveries onboard knew nothing apart from it was about a 5 mile walk and suggested I should not go. We did not cancel but went to see if we could find a solution. I was gutted but that night was talking with Heike. She explained exactly what was involved and from her knowledge how the ships trip was structured- slow walk, large amounts of free time for you to decide how long you had to explore vs walking back up.

We kept the reservations it was a dream day, it IS doable if you are sensible and manage your time. Thank goodness for that chat with Heike!

But I know my limits, what I can and cannot do, I think most in my situation are, what hampers us is a complete lack of accurate information when buying quite an expensive product.

Hello,

Agree - valid points - but I do wonder how big of an issue this really is? I cruise a lot and always use ship's tours as opposed to private ones and although perhaps occasionally a tour group doesn't walk fast, I can't remember a single tour with "sites missed" - per the title of this thread. I must have taken well over 250 tours over the years. I'm also relatively young (43) and walk fast, so tend to notice slowness easily - and have never noticed it to be a serious/major issue.

Kind Regards,

Floris

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Hello,

 

Agree - valid points - but I do wonder how big of an issue this really is? I cruise a lot and always use ship's tours as opposed to private ones and although perhaps occasionally a tour group doesn't walk fast, I can't remember a single tour with "sites missed" - per the title of this thread. I must have taken well over 250 tours over the years. I'm also relatively young (43) and walk fast, so tend to notice slowness easily - and have never noticed it to be a serious/major issue.

 

Kind Regards,

Floris

 

 

 

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Glad you missed some of the slowness on the overnight adventure :) that was an example of one where information wasn't known.

I ducked out of the walks to 2 wadis as soon as I saw what was involved. On that trip not even the guides thought about walking issues (they were all fit younger men) We did feedback after the trip hope that info is there for next year because whilst it's strenuous it's doable.

My only issue was as soon as I realised a walk was a no no I could not get into shade in the van as it was locked and all the guides were with the group or elsewhere so it was pretty uncomfortable sitting on a wall in the sun for half an hour. That's where if you're told ahead of the walk what it entails you can immediately ask to stay in the van if need be.

Again, that was a very expensive trip when two went and for that cost, I think I expect the kind of background knowle that land tours lime tauck have

I am sympathetic to your plight, We were going on a walking tour and at the meeting point I noticed an elderly lady, walking slowly with a cane and pronounced limp. I thought to myself "This is going to be a problem".

When we actually got going, it was all I could do to keep up to her. She really moved along in spite of her challenges.

You can't always judge a book by its cover.

Participants need to be realistic about their capabilities, and operators need to be clear about what the excursion entails.

John

Glad you missed some of the slowness on the overnight adventure :) that was an example of one where information wasn't known.

And here I was thinking I'm an impatient person [emoji3] Totally agree that the information on the overnight was poor but nobody's slowness bothered me even in the slightest on that fun trip. We did run late but that was because they had stuffed too much into the day (having never run the tour before) and in the end I don't think we missed anything? We even made the sunset just in time. And if only those trouble makers in car 2 hadn't gotten stuck in the sand we might have been earlier [emoji6]

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I think that tour highlighted for me how stressful it can be when I do not know about how much hiking and climbing I have to do!! Never mind the occupants of the car :D:D

I think Bodger sums it up perfectly, we need to be aware of our capabilities and have good information to support us. We are paying a lot for our excursions. If I contract with a private provider, I am able to ask them direct questions and I have never had anything but 100% honest answers that have helped me make the correct decisions. Its not been like that with Azamara.

Azamara is charging a premium price for their excursions, so everyone expects a premium experience which is better than they can buy elsewhere, whether that is that they are not held up by those who should not be there or whether they are getting better information on what is involved so they can decide whether to join or not. And when its a first time run, I am now uncomfortable about paying high price to be part of the experiment. I am probably going to avoid first time runs as often as practical.

So far, as I have highlighted on another thread I am sorry to see this new launch is not really addressing some of the core issues that have blighted their offerings in the past around poor information and poor delivery on some trips. Had I been around last week I would have directly asked these questions. I hope we can see progress down the line on this important issue.

First of all, I have a question for the OP since it's some time ago that we were on Viking River Cruises. Unlike ocean cruise land discoveries, river cruises usually offer one generic tour at each port. Does Viking create separate categories for this generic tour based upon mobility; namely, by establishing a slow walkers group?

Certainly others, including in our experience Uniworld, do so.

2/ On one of our Viking Cruise, the guide arranged for a family with a wheelchair-bound mother to meet us at more easily accessible points whilst we negotiated the entire route. Was this approach suggested by the guide?

3/ These questions about the options before the couple perhaps lead to a greater issue. Were they simply intransigent about altering their expectations. If so, it is difficult to imagine a simple system that would deal with that issue.

4/ Thus, I think that the potential issues concerning Land Discoveries on Azamara are somewhat different since there is not a generic tour, but rather a menu of offerings labelled "mild", "moderate" etc. As usual, uktog has clearly identified some important issues. In our case, my wife has very mild mobility issues but is very concerned that she not become THAT person on a tour.

In most cases the details in the write-ups describing said tours are very helpful, however a reference to "limited mobilty" does not particularly help. A good decision is based in the details. As Anne suggests, knowing whether one can easily detour from a particularly onerous part can be quite useful, as can the knowledge that there is a reception centre, meeting point or open vehicle nearbye.

Since it would be impossible to include all of this information in the write-up, the only source would be the Land Discoveries team on board. On our last cruise I must say that for one of our tours the discussion was not particularly useful, and at least on my part led to considerable confusion. In a second case it was handled exceptionally well.

This places a lot of pressure on the Land Discoveries officers to provide accurate information so that a wise decision can be made, and clear co-ordination with the central team in Miami that the message is consistent.

I'd also add, that in the vast majority of cases I think participants make thoughtful choices.

First of all, I have a question for the OP since it's some time ago that we were on Viking River Cruises. Unlike ocean cruise land discoveries, river cruises usually offer one generic tour at each port. Does Viking create separate categories for this generic tour based upon mobility; namely, by establishing a slow walkers group?

Certainly others, including in our experience Uniworld, do so.

 

*********Nordski - Viking now has river cruises and ocean cruises. I have been on each. The tours were labeled as to how easy/hard they were. The problem, of course is, when the handicapped person does not care (the only reason I can see for such a person to sign up for a strenuous event.). Viking also sells tours that they charge for.

 

 

2/ On one of our Viking Cruise, the guide arranged for a family with a wheelchair-bound mother to meet us at more easily accessible points whilst we negotiated the entire route. Was this approach suggested by the guide?

 

***********Apparently not since the person showed up for the tour.

 

 

3/ These questions about the options before the couple perhaps lead to a greater issue. Were they simply intransigent about altering their expectations. If so, it is difficult to imagine a simple system that would deal with that issue.

 

*************The woman in the wheelchair complained the entire time, very loudly, that the guide was walking much too fast. The guide then slowed the entire tour down.

 

4/ Thus, I think that the potential issues concerning Land Discoveries on Azamara are somewhat different since there is not a generic tour, but rather a menu of offerings labelled "mild", "moderate" etc. As usual, uktog has clearly identified some important issues. In our case, my wife has very mild mobility issues but is very concerned that she not become THAT person on a tour.

 

In most cases the details in the write-ups describing said tours are very helpful, however a reference to "limited mobilty" does not particularly help. A good decision is based in the details. As Anne suggests, knowing whether one can easily detour from a particularly onerous part can be quite useful, as can the knowledge that there is a reception centre, meeting point or open vehicle nearbye.

 

Since it would be impossible to include all of this information in the write-up, the only source would be the Land Discoveries team on board. On our last cruise I must say that for one of our tours the discussion was not particularly useful, and at least on my part led to considerable confusion. In a second case it was handled exceptionally well.

 

*********This is the reason for my original post.

 

This places a lot of pressure on the Land Discoveries officers to provide accurate information so that a wise decision can be made, and clear co-ordination with the central team in Miami that the message is consistent.

 

**********It should be someone's responsibility when people pay for an entire tour, not one cut short. I believe all tour brochures, on all ships, list the degree of difficulty for each tour.

 

I'd also add, that in the vast majority of cases I think participants make thoughtful choices.

I agree completely. I feel that accomodations should should be made for the handicapped but one has to be reasonable. If the tour involves places a wheelchair can not go, those unfortunate enough to be in a chair should not sign up and/or participate in the tour.

Uktog:

I agree with you. Hopefully these posts will not be offensive to anyone. I certainly never intended it to be. This being my first cruise with Azamara I just wondered how, or if, they deal with this.

Notwithstanding, we are looking for a fantastic cruise with fantastic people , all of who have posted on CC seem to be. Meeting, and enjoying, people is the real reason for cruising. :)

I really dislike getting into lose/lose situations. You don't want to be excluded BUT you don't want to be let out either. I think that's one reason DW and I have decided not to the the Galapagos. Port intensive cruises are really not an enjoyable thing for me. Doing a TA is more my style I think :) . I have a scooter now in case I need it. My goals for my next cruise is to get off the ship and have lunch in the port. Anything more than that will most likely be a plus.

One other thing for significantly physically disabled people to consider is that Azamara tenders into ports A LOT. If you are a wheelchair user then you must be able to get in and out of the tender independently. The crew are not insured to lift you....only to lend you a hand to steady you.

A few years ago a disabled lady was totally unable to get off the tender in rocky seas. It was calm when she left Quest in the morning, so she managed, but on returning later in the afternoon the wind had picked up and the swells were big. It was tricky to get off the tender even for able bodied people and she was completely unable to disembark the tender. Her elderly husband was also disabled and could not lift her. She was so distressed and fearful, so my physically very strong partner picked her up and carried her up the stairs while the crew brought her wheelchair up. She was so frightened by the experience that she did not get off the ship for the other two tender ports.

I agree completely. I feel that accomodations should should be made for the handicapped but one has to be reasonable. If the tour involves places a wheelchair can not go, those unfortunate enough to be in a chair should not sign up and/or participate in the tour.

Many thanks for your reply.

I certainly agree that those in a wheelchair "should not sign up" for tours which are inaccessible. But if they do...then who should deal with the issue? I'm not certain who I would turn to and can certainly appreciate your frustration in having your concerns addressed.

My own view is that it would have to be an officer well above the level of the staff who work at Land Discoveries.

LottieA's post illustrates how, on ocean cruises, your concern can pass beyond a serious inconvenience to an actual danger of physical harm to the passenger and, as well. to those offering aid. The captain makes a decision as to whether tendering is safe at a port; perhaps another officer should be authorized to assess whether there is immanent possibility of said harm for those with "limited mobility".

Although accessibity is increasingly improved in the Western World, travellers may also need clearer guidance that, whilst at least on their travels, they may encounter serious barriers. Cobblestones, although atmospheric, aren't the friends of weelchairs.

Thankfully, as Florisdekort points out, at least on Azamara the problem is rare. And we also realize it's time to set sail again on a river cruise to experience how the fastest growing segment of the industry has/is changing. :)

I certainly agree that those in a wheelchair "should not sign up" for tours which are inaccessible. But if they do...then who should deal with the issue? I'm not certain who I would turn to and can certainly appreciate your frustration in having your concerns addressed.

I think this is the nut of the problem. Passengers can book excursions on the internet months before boarding. A passenger may have mobility issues that are not obvious on casual observation. It may not be obvious a passenger might have a problem until the first stop after getting off the bus.

Staff on-board can't interview everyone signed up on every excursion to determine his or her fitness or mobility level to determine if the excursion is suitable for the passenger. Unless the passenger is a very frequent cruiser known well by the excursions staff, I don't know how the staff could be expected to police this unless there's something quite obvious, like a wheelchair.

Some people are willing to bite off more than they can chew. Others--like me--tend to be the opposite and try to avoid being in a position where they can't negotiate the path/trail/steps/ladder/whatever that they'd encounter on the excursion.

My sense is there are now many more warnings, cautions, mobility guidances, etc., in the excursion write-ups, but I'd never expect every one of them to be 100% accurate. Weather, tides, and many other factors can affect what a mobility-impaired passenger might be able to handle and what he or she can't.