Heard it before, so many times....

It looks like you need to change cruise lines!

 

I think it is humorous that an automobile dealership is complaining about someone else using "b.s." and "bait and switch", a marketing ploy that automobile dealerships initially instituted and perfected to a high science! :rolleyes:

"On sale, Belchfire SS for only $9,995!!!!!!!!!! (only one at this price)" :p

What was/is your profession so I can paint you all with the same brush?

Our group has been in business since 1933 with consistent 5-star awards and an A+ BBB rating. My name has been in the phone book since 1979, so I obviously haven't felt the need to hide from my customers. As a reputable new car dealer, you live and die by the manufacturer's Customer Satisfaction Index. Have we had unhappy customers? Of course, but not due to our ad tactics. I cringe when I hear some of the ads out there. I don't like being screamed at, or being bait-and-switched, so I always assumed my customers wouldn't respond well to that kind of advertising either. What makes the difference is the effort made to correct a problem when it occurs, and trying to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Celebrity, and you, should take note - you don't need to play games with your customers if you have a solid product and are good at what you do.

All this ruckkus for a few free drinks?:rolleyes:

The RS comes with the Premium Drink Package and unlimited internet, but on a 15-day cruise the gratuities and OBC amounted to about $800. I didn't become able to afford the suite by throwing $800 away.

........What makes the difference is the effort made to correct a problem when it occurs, and trying to make sure it doesn't happen again........ you don't need to play games with your customers if you have a solid product and are good at what you do.

Frankly, you are spot on and nailing Celebrity for what they do with their marketing schemes is completely fair.

Anyway, I applaud your candor in this matter. I also think as a car dealership owner, you understand the value of sales. I can't criticize Celebrity for that as they may rightfully think their marketing strategy, which you and I might dislike, seems to be helping them remain right up their in cornering their share of the cruising market.

I get literally dozens of emails from Celebrity every week announcing a new deal. I look at them but, like most experienced cruise shoppers, you can tell within a few minutes whether or not what they're offering constitutes a good deal. The confusing array of perks, where and when they are offered and so forth makes it hard for Celebrity's CSRs to keep up, let alone Travel Agents and us. I've remarked you have to be a lawyer to wade through the paragraphs of fine print on these offers.

I'm pretty sure that in designing their marketing strategy, they don't know many of us on this board and elsewhere who get these offers have cruised with them 30 or more times. We know what is a good deal and what isn't.

I'm also pretty sure =X's= marketing focus on their loyal customers, caring about and nurturing brand loyalty is not a priority. I think that is a mistake.... and, to be clear, I don't view the Captain's Club loyalty program to amount to much and it is a program that I believe is vastly underused as a sales approach.

As you obviously did running your car business, doing that - making loyal customers feel special - insures that first customer who walked into your showroom will keep coming back because his experience with it from the sale of the vehicle to servicing it to trading it in for the next new car was not only superb but your business/employees left the impression he/she was treated fairly and with due recognition of his/her innate or acquired, car buying intelligence.

It is no error in marketing approaches that high end car dealers like Cadillac, BMW and Mercedes DO focus on developing brand loyalty and serve/pursue that market segment vigorously. I think you and I would prefer Celebrity did a better job at that. Do I have that right?

I'd suggest Celebrity mine some data on their loyal customers by name, find out where they go and what they like and offer them savings or on-board programs ear marked for them. After all, over a decade of cruising there are customers who are literally going to spend or have spent 100s of thousands of dollars on their product. Kinda like high end cars, isn't it.

That would be nice but I have a sense that their market research shows them that they can make more money by marketing strategies that might have met PT Barnum's view, “Nobody ever lost a dollar by underestimating the taste of the American public” ...... or better yet, in targeting a particular segment of the cruiser market, “There's a sucker born every minute.”

Again blizzardboy, thanks for your post.

Great post Jbuch02. I have several "laws of marketing physics", but first and foremost, "It takes a lot more money to earn a customer than to keep one." Some of the others were sayings I picked up from my very wise grandfather that I applied to life as well as marketing. "If you don't lie to someone, you don't have to remember what you said," and "Don't mess with a man's wife or his wallet." I could go on, but ethics are inherent in all.

Even children easily spot inconsistencies in rules and how they're applied. I'm insulted when a company like X plays around with their rules and doesn't think we're smart enough to realize it. You remarked that you need to be a lawyer to wade through the fine print. Well, my attorneys say I scare the hell out of them as I probably know the answer before I ask a question and am only looking for their affirmation. I was trained as an engineer, which is basically a logical thought process, applied with a set of rules, to solve a problem. If you master the logical thought process, you only need to learn a new set of rules. It took a while for my attorneys to realize that I read contracts faster upside down than they do right side up. I'm not bad with their rules, either!

The RS comes with the Premium Drink Package and unlimited internet, but on a 15-day cruise the gratuities and OBC amounted to about $800. I didn't become able to afford the suite by throwing $800 away.

:rolleyes:

Great post Jbuch02. I have several "laws of marketing physics", but first and foremost, "It takes a lot more money to earn a customer than to keep one." Some of the others were sayings I picked up from my very wise grandfather that I applied to life as well as marketing. "If you don't lie to someone, you don't have to remember what you said," and "Don't mess with a man's wife or his wallet." I could go on, but ethics are inherent in all.

It's really too bad that Celebrity doesn't have people with the marketing understanding like you and jbuch02. I have over four decades in the marketing arena and IMHO you truly grasp that it's the simple things that attract and keep a customer. There are only two ways to generate sales. You either increase the revenue from existing customers or you attract new customers. As you pointed out, the former has a much less expensive customer acquisition cost.

If I may add another thing that customers appreciate. It's receiving something with a high perceived value even if it has a low out of pocket cost to the company.

The opposite of that concept is the RCL shareholder "benefit" which in reality is a farce. Because the Go Big "promotion" has rolled into it a perk that they actually hide with increased fares, that booking code disqualifies you from receiving the "benefit."

How much out of pocket does $100 or $200 Non-refundable OBC really cost RCL with their ship markup? Carnival doesn't play that game. It doesn't matter your perks on any of their cruise lines, you still qualify for the Shareholder benefit.

It's all about supply and demand.

:rolleyes:

It's a shame that real communication is being replaced with emojis, but you speak it well.

.

 

The opposite of that concept is the RCL shareholder "benefit" which in reality is a farce. Because the Go Big "promotion" has rolled into it a perk that they actually hide with increased fares, that booking code disqualifies you from receiving the "benefit."

 

How much out of pocket does $100 or $200 Non-refundable OBC really cost RCL with their ship markup? Carnival doesn't play that game. It doesn't matter your perks on any of their cruise lines, you still qualify for the Shareholder benefit.

Don't get me started. Their denial of shareholder benefit if their are any perks, paid for through an increased cruise price or not, sends a message that we don't value our shareholders.

You can pay for a cheaper inside cabin with no perks and get the shareholder benefit or pay up to double that price and get a perk or two and be denied shareholder benefit. Stupid logic.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It's a shame that real communication is being replaced with emojis, but you speak it well.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

...... Carnival doesn't play that game. It doesn't matter your perks on any of their cruise lines, you still qualify for the Shareholder benefit.

Good point in the context of your original post of which I only quoted a small part.

Maybe 2-3 years ago, when it became apparent to me that Celebrity didn't really value my then 24 cruises with them (now 30), I started looking around. I also felt somewhat unappreciated when Lutoff-Perlo moved Celebrity away from it's original marketing and overall service approach and focused on "Modern Luxury."

In my view the heart of this approach was to target and sell to a high wage earning market who want and will pay for a high end experience in the "Suite Life" with it's exclusive dining coupled with very expensive concierge shore tours, some of them involving $300+ pp culinary experiences.

I'm not in that target market and don't feel compelled to spend that kind of money on a cruise. I'd call myself a value cruiser, not a luxury cruiser. Your mileage may vary and I hold no enmity for those cruisers who can afford and who want luxury and exclusivity. I'll also say, I've never felt like a second class citizen on any Celebrity cruise by not booking a suite or being a part of the group that dines in Lumina or Blu. We still like the overall, shipboard Celebrity experience.

It's the marketing approach that I dislike and the complex array of perks, the way cabins are priced that make it difficult at first glance to determine what you are paying for your cabin. It's certainly not impossible to do that but, please, don't try to obfuscate pricing in an effort to make a sale at a higher pricing level without being clear about how the actual cost of a perk is baked into the final pp price of the cruise.

As you said, Carnival isn't playing that game. They don't offer enticing perks, your cabin value on a price per day, per person basis is easy to determine. You want a drink package or cabin credits, you buy them and here is the price per day, per person for that. On that basis (cost per day) Carnival is offering comparable cabins at a lower cost. Since I'm looking for good value, I have Three Carnival cruises booked in 2017 v. only one Celebrity cruise.

Moreover, on Carnival's newer ships (Conquest Class comparable to M class), there are more included dining options and the up-charge for their specialty restaurants ranges from $25 to $35pp. Their newest ship (Vista Class - a mega ship) has 26 dining offerings.

If you want to pay for exclusivity (and it IS expensive) you can book into Carnival's version of suite class on Vista, the Havana Club, that features a Havana Suite guests only pool area, various exclusive eateries and clubs and controlled, key access to this high end area. Industry wide, this seems to be the trend creating a haves and have-nots sort of dichotomy on cruising vessels that only reflects, and fairly so, IMO, the value of hard work in this country.

Bottom line, I'm not at all upset with Celebrity for taking the path Lutoff-Perlo appears to be taking the company- it's a reflection of the overall trends in the cruise industry. I'm not abandoning Celebrity for other lines. But unlike Carnival whose pricing approach, IMO, is much more straight forward, Celebrity, again IMO, tends to make it difficult to understand an accurate cabin cost per day, pp and in the end game, when you finally get to it, Celebrity tends to be more costly for comparable cabins than Carnival. In my view, that is purposeful and somewhat distateful to me. IOW, for us right now, when you compare on a cost basis, we're getting better value from Carnival than we are from Celebrity.

That assessment does not take into account subjective experiences that might influence buying preference based on one cruise line, one ship, one group of Navigation Officers, Hotel staff or Food and Beverage staff, entertainment or tours and, of course, itinerary. That is an important qualifier here and one that may very well over-ride the value basis for selecting a particular cruise or cruise line.

Actually when I referred to the Carnival shareholder benefit I wasn't only referring to the Carnival line but the other cruise lines in the family as well.

Don't get me started. Their denial of shareholder benefit if their are any perks, paid for through an increased cruise price or not, sends a message that we don't value our shareholders.

 

You can pay for a cheaper inside cabin with no perks and get the shareholder benefit or pay up to double that price and get a perk or two and be denied shareholder benefit. Stupid logic.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I own CCL stock as we are regulars on HAL ships. They don't practice corporate bait-and-switch like X on the Shareholder Benefit. I keep comparing my experience, and what I've read and heard so far about X with our long-term experience with HAL and X is sorely lacking in customer service and ethics in general. My old mentor used to say, "The speed of the team is the speed of their leader." I wrote X's Pres Lutoff-Perla a letter relaying our issues at booking and beyond, hoping to see corrections or improvement in some really critical areas. One day shy of 7 weeks later, I got a phone call from someone who had no clue what was in the letter. Her message consisted entirely of, 'Sorry you had a problem." She couldn't comment on any of the points I made. A letter to the HAL executive offices with elicit a response and action in less than a week. I keep wondering why I'm giving business to a group for which I'm so rapidly losing respect.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

But you keep repeating yourself! ;)

But you keep repeating yourself! ;)

And they're redundant. :rolleyes:

I own CCL stock as we are regulars on HAL ships. They don't practice corporate bait-and-switch like X on the Shareholder Benefit. I keep comparing my experience, and what I've read and heard so far about X with our long-term experience with HAL and X is sorely lacking in customer service and ethics in general. My old mentor used to say, "The speed of the team is the speed of their leader." I wrote X's Pres Lutoff-Perla a letter relaying our issues at booking and beyond, hoping to see corrections or improvement in some really critical areas. One day shy of 7 weeks later, I got a phone call from someone who had no clue what was in the letter. Her message consisted entirely of, 'Sorry you had a problem." She couldn't comment on any of the points I made. A letter to the HAL executive offices with elicit a response and action in less than a week. I keep wondering why I'm giving business to a group for which I'm so rapidly losing respect.

This thread laughable I hope some of you are not serious. No one is telling you to book with Celebrity or RCCL not happy with the price go elsewhere. Almost all special offers, coupons etc. do not allow you to combine offers, pick the one best for you and go for it. Where is the bait and switch?

Talk about Carnival or HAL what special offers are you talking about I have seen none but maybe a token on board credit. For me to cruise Carnival vs. Celebrity the Carnival Cruise would have to be for free. What you buy one share of cruise line stock and want all the perks plus a shareholder discount?? Celebrity offers me the best cruise experience at price we like. They also have the very best Premium Beverage Package offered by any one which is a big plus for us. The added benefits of the Captain's Club Elite Member Benefits is a big deal for me and is added value to our Celebrity Cruise. It is designed to make me feel special and it does this job very well.

The offers are very honest and straight forward very easy understand.

This thread laughable I hope some of you are not serious. No one is telling you to book with Celebrity or RCCL not happy with the price go elsewhere. Almost all special offers, coupons etc. do not allow you to combine offers, pick the one best for you and go for it. Where is the bait and switch?

 

Talk about Carnival or HAL what special offers are you talking about I have seen none but maybe a token on board credit. For me to cruise Carnival vs. Celebrity the Carnival Cruise would have to be for free. What you buy one share of cruise line stock and want all the perks plus a shareholder discount?? Celebrity offers me the best cruise experience at price we like. They also have the very best Premium Beverage Package offered by any one which is a big plus for us. The added benefits of the Captain's Club Elite Member Benefits is a big deal for me and is added value to our Celebrity Cruise. It is designed to make me feel special and it does this job very well.

The offers are very honest and straight forward very easy understand.

I stated that CCL Corp (I sail HAL, not Carnival) shareholder program is not exempted if you have Explore 4, or whatever the HAL promo du jour might be, and for your info, it requires a 100 shares with to be in the CCL program. To encourage investment by your passengers with the promise of any amount of OBC, then to come up with a list of exclusions from same, qualifies as bait and switch in my book. In this, our first experience with X, from day one I felt I needed a shower after dealing with their customer service people. Fish stinks from the head, so I blame X's executives for the crappy way they conduct business. I applaud loyalty, but not blind loyalty. You've obviously "drank the Kool Aid", so logic doesn't apply. There's no honesty or consistency in how X classifies cruises to exempt them from their offers.

The offers are very honest and straight forward very easy understand.

Yep, I agree, some of us get it and some of us don't!

This thread laughable I hope some of you are not serious. ..........

Appreciate your perspective southernbreezes.

One of the issue, among others, for those who have posted on the subject of Celebrity's marketing approach and taken issue with it is that Celebrity states perks in the Good-Better-Best (G-B-B) promotions are "free." blizzardboy characterized this as a "classic bait and switch" marketing approach.

I suppose one can quibble about definitions of "bait and switch" but from his perspective as a car dealership owner, when a dealer advertises "free" floor-mats, service for one year, under-body protectant, any number of things like this they are never free. They are baked into the final price that the dealership is willing to sell you the car you want.

Here's another example: Spirit Airlines, a relatively new player in the low-cost, no frills airline industry, advertises a fare both on their web site and that fare will also appear on search engines a shopper might use. Is that the actual cost to you for the flight you want to take? Nope.

By the time you finish a booking with Spirit, what appeared to be a super low fare in comparison to other airlines competing for your business on that route turns out to be only a few dollars less ...... if you have any bags to check or a carry on larger than a purse or lap top carrier, if you want a seat other than the ones no one ever reserves, if you don't want to board last and risk no overhead storage for the bag you did carry on.

Is this Honest? Is it Ethical? Is it legal? Depends on your perspective I guess but the FAA has implemented rules limiting this approach for US flagged carriers. IOW, airlines must list the total price for the flight, up front including taxes, fees, luggage fees if any, advance seat reservations, if any and so forth. Spirit has figured out how to be in compliance with FAA regs but, IMO, it's in the gray area. Their competitors have done similar types of things that Spirit has done and the industry is pretty much back to the confusing array of options for a flight from point A to B and back.

My sense is that Celebrity has done something similar with their pricing strategies in order to boost the attractiveness of their fares compared to their competitors. Other Lines have joined in with that approach. Is this Honest? Is it Ethical? Is it legal? Depends on your perspective I guess.

One final example and I'll do this in round figures: Let's say you found a fare for a Inside Cabin on a 7d Caribbean cruise for $975pp. There are no perks (G-B-B promotion) with this fare. It's essentially no frills. I have no problem with this other than the minor one that advertised fare does not include taxes and port fees of $275pp. It's there in the small print and it sorts out as you go through the booking process but, nonetheless ....

Now let's say you'd like to avail yourself of some perks offered in the G-B-B promotion. You can get one perk with an OV, two with a Balcony and up from there where you'll get all 4 by booking a suite. Let's look at a balcony because we want two perks. You will likely spend somewhere between $2800 and $3500 for the Balcony booking depending on Cabin Category. The value to you of your perks maxes out at about $1000. So, you paid at a minimum $1825 more pp to get $1000 in perks or and IOW, Celebrity grabs $825 from you (an up-sale) and gives you perks that cost them considerably less in real dollars to them than the perceived value to you. As well, as you move up in cabin class and category, the delta, or the difference between what Celebrity is getting from you and what they are making in profit goes up exponentially.

It's easy to see how many variables this kind of calculation allows Celebrity to determine what the actual cost of the cabin fare to you is and what offering these perks costs them. They do it all the time by offering maybe two perks or three for lower cabin classes.

This kind of approach is nothing startling, offensive or really unethical (again depending on your perspective). It is not illegal within the cruise industry because there is no comparable governing body like The FAA. and who is to say a governing body would regulate this. Celebrity is in the business of making money. No problem with me in the regard. I just want them to be transparent with how they do it.

But I don't think that is the case. The cruising consumer has to do a lot of math to determine if the extra money spent for the balcony and the accompanying two perks is worth it to them. In the example above for the 7n Caribbean cruise, those that are going to drink more than about $675pp ($825 - $150pp for the typical OBC), it may very well be. For those that don't, it won't. What if their giving two perks instead of the usual one for a particular booking. Break out the calculator.

I'd argue the cruising consumer shouldn't have to do that. I can assure you Celebrity has done the math on all of this and it is NOT, on a pure cost basis, going to be in your favor. I'd also point out that from a marketing perspective, that department within corporate hopes you won't do the math and that you'll be just fine with thinking all these perks in G-B-B promotion are "free" and that is an unbelievably fantastic deal. GO CELEBRITY! That's probably what aggravates me the most. It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth about how Celebrity goes about doing business.

Jbuch02,

I don't know of any low cost airlines over here where you don't pay additional fees for hold bags and chosen seats, even the likes of BA charge for selecting a particular seat on the aircraft (and I believe this includes business class seats too). If you book show/music tickets online, you will be charged extra e.g. booking fee, admin fees etc. Not saying it's correct, but it's across the board nowadays.

It actually made me smile when you mentioned not including the extra for port fees and taxes in the advertised price (btw, this has to be included into the total amount over here when advertised) because you experience this every time you purchase goods in the US when you get to the cash register: State and other taxes are added to the advertised price. Again, in supermarkets in England, the price you see on goods is what you pay, inclusive of any VAT (taxes). We think it's quite strange having to establish how much you're actually paying for an item rather than it being stated on the goods themselves.

I think blizzardboy's issue is with X deciding what is characterised as a 'repo' to suit their needs (I, too, would be upset in his case), rather than added on costs to the cruise fare. Perhaps it highlights the need to ask for any quotations to be put in writing and then both parties know exactly what they are getting with the deal. FWIW, our Asia cruise starts in one port and ends in another - not classed as a 'repo' though :confused: so we have an included drinks package (I realise it's not free, but indirectly included in the price). As with all things in this day and age, you have to delve deeper in order to see if it's the 'best' deal for your requirements :).

Now totally off subject, I wonder if Kusadasi is still on our itinerary :D?

I originally booked a C3 on the Constellation (Singapore to Abu Dhabi) for April 2017. The cost was $2,999 per person. This fare included gratuities, drink package, and OBC.

We decided that we would prefer to cruise that itinerary in January 2018 (Abu Dhabi to Singapore - same itinerary and cruise length). The cost of the C3, without any perks, is now $3,049 per person.

This cruise is now considered a Repositioning cruise and is not eligible for perks any more.

...... I don't know of any low cost airlines over here where you don't pay additional fees for hold bags and chosen seats......

First, thanks for your response .......

I was going to go into this (low cost airlines operating within the EU). But, my post was getting way too long. If I am not mistaken, your EU regulators require airline web sites to be very clear about fare pricing up-front. You can select Option A, B or C. The price for each option has to be inclusive.

I recently booked with Swiss Air out of ZRH and it was very clear what the terms of each option were with regard to luggage, reserved seats and so on. No math required. Nice. Compared to US Airlines, it is much clearer for the consumer and I suspect that is a result of the regulators. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this.

We think it's quite strange having to establish how much you're actually paying for an item rather than it being stated on the goods themselves.

I agree with you, it is strange. Most consumer advocates over here believe the entity selling the goods or services needs to be completely up-front about the cost of them. Have you ever tired to purchase wireless service in the US? Compare providers? Obfuscation abounds; all intended to portray to the unwary consumer that you're getting a better deal from Sprint, Horizon, T-Mobile, whatever, than AT&T or visa-versa. Absurd.

I think blizzardboy's issue is with X deciding what is characterised as a 'repo' to suit their needs (I, too, would be upset in his case), rather than added on costs to the cruise fare.

Understood. It's all part of the trend of selling a product the process of which (marketing scheme if you will) tends to advantage the seller over the buyer, notwithstanding the tried and true dictum, "let the buyer beware." I would have thought as a civilization we would have progressed a bit beyond that period in Roman history. Not so fast .....

Now totally off subject, I wonder if Kusadasi is still on our itinerary :D?

Have heard nothing yet. I'm sure you too are watching the itineraries of other cruise lines and ships as well as Celebrity. I think Rhodes is the most likely port for us. Kusadasi seems to me to be fading as Erdogan advances his purge of those he sees as disloyal to him - upwards of 60k people have been arrested and detained without charges in the public and military sector. Stories of abuses and lack of due process among those detained abound. Very sad for a beautiful once vibrant, politically and economically, country undergoing what appears to be a putz at the hands of a tyrant. We shall see.

The reason why there are no offers on TA,s repositioning cruises etc, there prices are really cheap!

 

No they are not, I have read several posts recently about the costs of TA's this coming autumn and early summer . I am booked on a cruise in January that is classed as a repositioning cruise Abu Dhabi to Singapore and no it was not a cheap price in fact now it is a very expensive one.

 

Why not offer a half price drinks package on these cruises with several consecutive sea days? cconsecutive sea day

Because they would lose money on people having nothing to do but drink.

How hard is it to get?

[quote name=El Crucero;I just checked that itinerary and it is a repositioning cruise with no promotions. Your included gratuities' date=' beverage package, and OBC would not have been part of the 1-2-3 GO promotion, would it? That promotion had different eligibility requirements and is long gone. I see that all C3 cabins are now sold out with no promotion. You HAD a great deal, you should not have cancelled.

This cruise was always defined as a repositioning cruise, you just HAD a great deal for the April 2017 itinerary. The fare is now higher because this repositioning itinerary has proved to be very popular and Celebrity can now sell it at a higher price. It is a matter of supply and demand, higher demand for a limited supply equals higher cost.

It appears that Celebrity classifies a repositioning itinerary as one that relocates from one region and stays for a period of time in a new region, in this case from Abu Dubai region to Southeast Asia/Singapore region where the ship will cruise for a while (or vice versa). It is a simple and consistent policy.

If you don't like Celebrity's pricing structure, then book with a different cruise line. Celebrity appears to have no trouble filling those cancelled cabins.[/quote]

The April cruise pricing was part of a 123 GO promotion. Yes, it is long gone and it was a good deal.

Our reason for cancelling the April cruise was weather related. It was our decision - not yours. We have no plans to cancel our new cruise.

I also don't need a lecture from you on Supply and Demand. (I have an MBA.)

My point was that this was either not considered a Repositioning cruise in the past or Celebrity has changed their rules for the 123 Promo. My post was meant as an Example of the change in Celebrity's policy re classification of Repositioning Cruises.