Flash...RSSC goes all inclusive

From a highly reliable source who has the 2007 itineraries, RSSC goes all inclusive in 2007!

Best regards,

Bill

I was just coming over here to see if anyone had spotted that "over there" and posted it "over here" -- and here it is! Yep, that sure caught MY attention. Turns out they've been listening after all! I just wish they'd move it up one month -- my 18-day cruise on the Mariner starts on Nov. 30, 2006. Oh well!

This has definitely inspired me to be sure to find a Radisson itinerary for 2007, since I'd like to see if my theory about increased conviviality in the lounges before and after dinner with all-inclusive holds true.

Richard, whaddaya think, huh? :D :D :D

LeeAnne

What do I think?

Well, it had to come, but at what price? I went over there, and must admit that I had a bit of a problem determining what price was for what. But, on the surface, cruises looked pretty darn high! Like there had been a MUCH larger price increase than the $15 per day pp that Mark Conroy told me via email would be involved. I hope this is not a case of "we finally got what we wanted, but now we can't afford it"!

Thanks,

Richard

Wouldn't it be nice if they made the switch when they are (supposedly) changing the name this year? I can dream!

OK, now I've gotten more information. Yes, we can afford it IF we take advantage of each and every possible special; free air or $1K off, 2 for 1, SSS discount, and anything else we can find:D . Haven't done any math to compare '06 with '07 same or similar cruises to see how much they went up in '07. Even if I did so, it wouldn't tell us how much of this was attributable to "open bar" and how much to general increased costs of doing business. RSSC fares were "up there" pretty close to Seaboun and Silversea, even in '06. Now, they seem to be going head to head. Fortunately for all of us who really don't want to be driven back to the mass market (we'd rather stay home), those other lines have gotten more price aggressive, also, so maybe time and itinerary choices won't be so limited.

What I had hoped for in past years was a Radisson that would be all inclusive but, due to the economy of using larger ships, could still give us a distinct price advantage over these other two lines. Oh, well. I got HALF of my wish.

Thanks,

Richard

I have the complete schedule and pricing and, it may be all inclusive, but you/we are going to be paying for it BIG TIME.

I have made a couple of quick comparisons and the pricing for a 7 day cruise next summer is slightly more than the cost of a 10 day cruise on the Navigator this summer. Prices on the Mariner in Alaska are also higher by a noteable amount. And, by the way, I am including the $1,000 "free air" discount.

I need to do a bit more work on this, but it seems like the prices are higher than Seabourn and Silversea.

I am not happy.:(

Prices do seem higher overall, but I'm seeing some itineraries that look quite cost-competitive to me. Granted I haven't gone and done all the comparisons and math, but with the SSS discounts (which in some cases are listes as 10%) and the other reductions, they are definitely affordable to me.

Also, I expect that there will most likely be some specials that come down the pike. There certainly were for '06 -- all of a sudden it seemed like I was inundated with specials! I don't for a minute think that these are all the final, lowest prices we'll be seeing for '07 cruises.

One thing I should say -- I'm not necessarily expecting Radisson cruises to be lower cost than Silversea or Seabourne or the other luxury lines. Now that they're going all-inclusive, I see Rad as a better cruise choice (for my tastes and desires). Personally, I found the size of the Voyager to be absolutely perfect for me, and I'm not sure I want to go much smaller. I'll have more to say about that after I get back from my Windstar cruise next month, but even so, I truly loved the Voyager and do not see its larger size as a downside as compared to the other lines -- I see it as a benefit.

LeeAnne

Don't forget that the higher fuel costs are in the price for 2007 instead of extra add on as they currently are doing.

PS

Maybe I just missed it but was anything said about the in cabin liquor set up? Will they still do that too?

Only experience will tell you what you prefer. Experience tells me that.:)

The fact is that I have clients paying (assuming no further discount by me) $3879.66 pp for a H on a 10 day Navigator cruise this summer and 7 day next summer is $4,016 pp. That is not even close! $390 per day vs. $572 per day! If you compare it to a 2007 9 day cruise, the price is still $555 per day...and that is no balcony.

The differences are pretty similar throughout the categories...at least by my quick look.

Then you have to add that many people in the upper cruise market do not want to cruise for only a week. They prefer 10-14 days. So the difference becomes even more magnified.

Maybe RSSC has something up its sleeve in relation to what it is going to provided over an above free drinks. I will wait and see, but even if there is something more coming, it better be pretty darn good.

Also, I expect that there will most likely be some specials that come down the pike. There certainly were for '06 -- all of a sudden it seemed like I was inundated with specials! I don't for a minute think that these are all the final, lowest prices we'll be seeing for '07 cruises.

 

LeeAnne

LeeAnne I hope that indeed happens. When I calculate the Navigator per diem for their lowest cabin, wiith no balcony I'm getting per diems in some cases higher than in Voyager! That makes no sense to me. The balcony has a value and also the Voyager is a newer and IMO a better ship. What kind of pricing model they have that doesn't recognize this?

Agreed. I would think that Voyager and Mariner cruises would be higher priced than Navigator cruises. I still have a lot of research to see what I can even look at for '07, and I DO hope I find a Radisson itinerary that works for me! But if not, I'm happy to hear that the other luxe lines seem to be going more competitive. My only concern with the other lines is that I fear that on the annual cruise that I take with my Mom, we just won't enjoy the smaller ships, whereas the Voyager/Mariner are perfect for us. I'm okay to go on smaller ships with DH, but I'm really hoping I can find a good Rad cruise for Mom and me.

LeeAnne

I must agree with Boatman on this. As I am not in the travel business, and have other things to do, I will not undertake computation of Radisson's annual fare increase percentages from '03 to '07. From a cursory look, it appears to me that Radisson has had just about the largest annual fare increase percentage overall in the industry during that period.

It was in '03, when Radisson fares seemed pretty reasonable to me (compared with Silversea and Seabourn) that I started what became a huge thread on this board about all inclusive and open bar. I had emailed Mark Conroy about this matter, and he gave me a figure of $15 per day per guest as the revenue Radisson would lose by going in this direction. I used his figures and asked board members here if they would be willing to pay $105 more on a 7 night cruise if it were open bar. Radisson ships were sailing fairly empty at the time, and I saw this as a way for them to fill their ships, make for a better cruise, and all at a price still less than the other inclusive lux lines. I advocated for this so much that many people became upset with me, and rightfully so, as I took up too much board space on a single issue. As I recalled, most agreed, but some were fearful of massive, additional fare increases. Preliminarily, I fear that they were right.

It would be interesting if someone would calculate the average fare increase on all Silversea and Seabourn cruises from '03 ro '07. Then I would like to apply that percent increase to Radisson's '03 fares, and then add $15 per day to the Radisson figure to account for the open bar.

I know ALL lines have been effected by cost inflation. I personally even believe that the inflation rates that are reported to us are understated. But then, this impacts all cruise lines, and not just Radisson. On the surface, it looks like Radisson has raised its rates far above the average percentage of increase among lux lines. Will somebody prove me wrong? I really WANT to be wrong here!:mad:

Thanks,

Richard

Where can I see this? Can you tell me how a 7 day PG cruise compares with this years. I want to book for next April but if it is going to be a large amount of difference I may do a land package.

I think the only fair way to compare prices is to compare this year's identical itinerary with the same cruise in 2007 and on the same ship.

If you compare a 7 day Voyager with a 10 day Navigator, you are looking at two different cruises. For example, we are doing Monte Carlo to Dover on Voyager this year. Had we done that on Navigator, there was much better pricing on a longer itinerary doing the comparing between two ships for this year. But there were some differences in the timing and in the ports. So we chose the cruise on Voyager for the experience.

If I compare using the Standard Brochure price (FULL PRICE), it went up $700 for 10 days or $70 per day. then add the SSS and OnBoard discounts that I got, of $105 and now no fuel surcharge, it's less than $57.50 per day. If the rooms have been upgraded with luxury linen and other amenities, that's not a lot of increase and if there's no bar tab, well, I think it's still a fair value and I've booked now for 2007.

But there is a way to compare a Navigator cruise with a Mariner cruise. Just figure in a two category upgrade on the Navigator --- enough to get you to a balcony suite like on the Mariner (only actually a bit larger). Even when I do this, and add the $15 per day for all inclusive (per Mark Conroy) I still come up with a big per diem increase above that so justified. As far as assigning any value to the new furnishings, I must say that the Navigator was reportedly very substandard before the refurnishing. Refurnishing was just a part of ordinary maintanence, and cannot be used as a justification for a price hike.

As for the Paul Gauguin, prices haven't been announced. I can say that, of all of Radisson's ships, the prices for the Paul Gauguin remained the most stable from '03 to '06, while fares for the rest of the fleet rose at a much higher rate. Here, we may actually BENEFIT from Radisson's strange and undefined relationship with Grand Circle Travel as to the Paul Gauguin!

Thanks,

Richard

I have compared Navigator to Navigator and Mariner to Mariner and the prices are much higher. Frankly, I don't care if it is Voyager, Navigator, or Mariner, there is no way to justify the price increases...other than filled ships.

What I do know is that RSSC is now priced at the very top of the market. If there are enough people that believe they are getting value for money then RSSC will be correct in this leap. If not, we will see some changes.

I fear, however, that about as much foresight in the benefits for the upper tiers of the past passenger program has been put into the pricing. Only time will tell.

What I do know is that Celebrity is looking a whole lot better, though it is - especially with the liquor inclusive - a bit of a different product. There is just a premium that I, personally, can't justify right now knowing what is out there from Seabourn/Silversea/SeaDream to Celebrity/HAL.

 

What I do know is that Celebrity is looking a whole lot better, though it is - especially with the liquor inclusive - a bit of a different product. There is just a premium that I, personally, can't justify right now knowing what is out there from Seabourn/Silversea/SeaDream to Celebrity/HAL.

That is if you assume that Seabourn/Silversea/SeaDream are a better cruise product than RSSC. I would disagree with that, excluding SeaDream which I have not cruised and cannot speak to. From what I can tell, RSSC seems to be drawing closer in price to the other lux lines, which is unfortunate, but not unexpected. Especially now that the differences between the lines have virtually disappeared other than ship size. The lower prices were great while they lasted; oh, well, we are still getting what we pay for and given my preference for the RSSC ships, I will probably be on them again in 07.

I wouldn't even consider including Celebrity or HAL in this discussiion. Looking forward to all-inclusive in 07.

Barb

Boatman:

I have to disagree that there will be any significant Radisson to Celebrity movement caused by what Radisson has done with their fares. Sorry, but before I ever again subject myself to nickel and diming within the captive market of a ship, I will either stay home, do land travel in Europe and elsewhere on my own, or go to all-inclusive land resorts. With me and most who have been cruising Radisson in the past, it's not about the money that gets "nickled and dimed" from us, but it is the principle of the thing. We don't like to do business that way. Celebrity knows how to "do it right". Look at their "Xpedition" cruise. Not a bad fare, either. I may book it!

But that being said, I fully agree with you about Radisson's new fare structure. Heck, I saw increases significantly above inflation in their '06 fares on all but the Paul Guaguin! Now, unless I am reading everything way wrong, it's just gone absurd.

I shall tell you and all whom I blame for these undue fare increases that came along with the all inclusive. I blame ME. And I blame all of us who have posted on the Radisson boards (here and elsewhere) extolling the virtues of that line. There is no other explanation of how Radisson went from 1/3 to 1/2 full ships in the '02-'03 time frame, and now are confident enough in full ships to pull something like this. My '03 emails from Mark Conroy expressed a fear that even a $15 per day pp increase would drive away guests in what he called a "fare conscious market." Well apparently Mark has changed his mind 180 degrees, or is no longer in control of the corporation.

Word of mouth advertising is the most effective kind --- as I was taught in college. It just takes a while to take effect. Folks probably booked Radisson in '06 based upon what past cruisers said about their '02 cruise. And the existance of these boards amplifies he word of mouth factor. But the thing is that the "word of mouth" factor can WORK IN REVERSE. And unless maters, including fares, change, Mark will find this out the hard way around '09 or so.

Thanks,

Richard

If you read some of the press reports, ships in general have seen a major increase in those cruising since 9/11 - all the cruiseline have had major increases in passenger counts. The law of supply and demand, whether or not we've who post on the boards state how much we like crusing a certain line or not, will dictate pricing. How else can RCCL justify a 6000 passenger ship. RSSC, build another new ship, Cunard has new megaships? Crusing is more mainstream than ever. And a quality product will have greater demand.

Richard--

Your assessment of why fares have gone up on RSSC is just a teeny bit oversimplified IMHO. I think its important to keep in mind that RSSC from 2001 to 2004 wasn't profitable. This is the prime reason that fares have gone up in 2005, 2006 and 2007 as well as to offset higher operational costs. So while you may have been able to grab great deals on RSSC from 2001 through 2004, these deals were unsustainable from a business perspective.

If RSSC had continued to offer these great values, I suspect that today you would have one fewer choice in the luxury segment. This would not have been good for luxury cruisers as it is extremely rare that less competition yields greater price competition.

Bill

ChatKat:

Of course, prices on ALL cruise lines have risen. As I have said, I believe the inflation rate is actually greater than reported, and this has impacted me and all cruise lines. My feeling at this point is (until proven wrong) is that Radisson's fares have risen by a greater percentage than those of competing lines (like Seabourn and Silversea). Even when Radisson's admitted cost of loss revenue from open bar of $15 per day pp is considered. I also must disagree that fares have risen only a "tiny weeny" bit.

I have very recently come to disagree with some (including my former position) on the over-all quality of Radisson. Some of the reasons come from first hand experience, and some come from the posts of folks I trust. Some comes from he new SSS benefits which are, frankly, just weak.

Oh, heck, I shouldn't care much. I can just switch to Silversea, etc., and go on. But when I see a corporation like Carlson (Radisson) throwing away a great advantage, I just cringe.

NH Cruisers:

I have truly enjoyed your business analysis as related to cruising in the past, and hope you continue to post same. In this case I respectfully disagree as to why Radisson was not profitable in the '01 to '04 period, because I witnessed the reason many times. Simply stated, Radisson ships were sailing far from full. I don't think it was because the fares were too low, but rather because not enough guests paid the fare in effect. An extreme example of this was our Navigator/Bermuda cruise in '03 with 190 guests aboard. Of course Radisson lost a lot of money on that cruise.

What I see here is a fatal corporate "knee jerk" reaction of "now we've got plenty of customers, so now let's jack our prices up sky high." The problem with this reaction is that it results in another customer shortage in the future, from which word of mouth advertising may not provide relief

Thanks,

Richard

That is if you assume that Seabourn/Silversea/SeaDream are a better cruise product than RSSC. I would disagree with that, excluding SeaDream which I have not cruised and cannot speak to. From what I can tell, RSSC seems to be drawing closer in price to the other lux lines, which is unfortunate, but not unexpected. Especially now that the differences between the lines have virtually disappeared other than ship size. The lower prices were great while they lasted; oh, well, we are still getting what we pay for and given my preference for the RSSC ships, I will probably be on them again in 07.

 

I wouldn't even consider including Celebrity or HAL in this discussiion. Looking forward to all-inclusive in 07.

 

Barb

I have sailed both RCCS and SeaDream off and on for 3 years. I would say that SeaDream is consistently a step above RCCS in almost all areas, including service, cuisine and cleanliness. All prices seem to be going up for 2007,,,but it is a matter of supply and demand. I think we all agree that we are willing to pay more to stay out of the herds of the mass market

surfklutz:

I think it is safe to say that you and I will NEVER return to the herds of the mass market, even if it means we never cruise in the future. But, I don't think it is going to come to that. I think I see more agressive pricing on the part of Silversea, Seabourn, and Sea Dream, which hopefully will successfully counter Radisson's poorly conceived fare increases with alternatives for us, that Radisson knows it can ill afford to have stand as the "better deal" for long. Radisson has clearly adopted a "pricing strategy" wherein they put a standard fare on a cruise that nobody in their right mind would pay, and then offer several tiers of time-sensitive discounts that bring the fare down ALMOST within reason. The prospective guest is thereby invited to play Russian Roulette with himself. Do I book at this inflated price now, or do I wait and hope the ship won't fill and there will be last minute disounts? One heck of a way for a lux line to do business.

Some of us won't play that game. We'll just write them off until they come up with some sort of reasonable fare situation. If they never do, we never book. A stand-off.

Thanks,

Richard

Delighted that Radisson is AI for 2007 - I really am not a "bean counter" so just go with trip I know I will enjoy - even if it means one trip a year - you can't beat Radisson as far as I am concerned - Joanna

Joanna:

"Even if it means one trip a year." This is the best statement of the matter yet. For some of us "Radisson regualrs" the much higher fares mean just that. Down from three for us. And due to Radisson's fare situation, not all of them may be on Radisson. Does that make money for Radisson?

Thanks,

Richard