Upper respiratory infection possibly on Zaandam

The ole "Cabin Cough" which we have experienced on too many cruises. DW and I have no problem avoiding Norovirus (we simply wash our hands (often) with soap and water and avoid touching our faces) but there is just no good way to avoid URIs on a ship. We do try to avoid tight enclosed spaces like elevators (anyone coughs or sneezes in an elevator and everyone is doomed) and will even more away from folks we hear doing a lot of coughing (on HAL they are probably just the smokers) but on longer cruises they eventually get you! DW has a real problem getting rid of "Cabin Cough" and has had to go to our physician (after returning home) who sometimes must use steroids to knock out the inflammation. On one occasion (Veendam) her cough was so bad that she finally went to the ship's doctor. He charged her $105, told her she "was not sick enough" and gave her some over-the-counter cough medicine. That was the time when she was not "sick enough" for nearly 2 months until steroids finally did the trick.

 

And we will give the HAL medical center some credit. After charging over $100 for nothing, they did follow-up with a phone call 2 days later and suggested she again return to spend another $100+ for nothing. ARGH!

 

Hank

Appreciate the advice about the med center. We have gotten sick on several ships of several lines, including our last one. Worse, though, was the Westerdam plague which caused me to be too sick to go to my Christmas present post cruise Bocelli concert. One can indeed avoid Noro with precautions but the air we breathe gets us. On our last cruise in Asia both of us came home sick but were glad it wasn't the horrible bug that was in the news. We will double stock our cough meds for our upcoming cruise...appreciate the heads up on "sick enough".

We were sick on our previous cruises but not on this last one. We were 22 days on the Zuiderdam post dry-dock cruise.

There were new carpets in lots of areas of the ship, the dining room chairs were all new, and we purposely spent anytime that we were relaxing and reading on our balcony. We are not really interested in lots of excursions, especially on coaches - we prefer to get off in the ports and do our own thing, either walking amongst the locals in the fresh air or catching local transport. We only went on two coaches in 22 days.

I think this makes a huge difference to the spread of URI.

A large number of us are retired and therefore not used to being in densely populated airconditioned work places and to suddenly find yourself among all those germs again, we are really susceptible. I know that we have not had as many coughs and colds etc. since we retired. JMHO. :)

Actually, the air is filtered, there are sanitizing pads placed in the air handler drain trays to prevent mold and bacteria, and the condition of the air conditioning equipment is part of the USPH Vessel Sanitation Program inspections, and the USPH "scores" that everyone talks about. The VSP is far, far more than just food and water safety that people think about.

 

Do you get air quality results posted for your movie theaters, or shopping malls, or even business buildings? Why should cruise ships be singled out for this?

Right you are about the VSP inspecting the HVAC. But the inspection is pretty loose. From the manual http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/operationsmanual/opsmanual2011.pdf

11.1.2.3 Inspection and Maintenance Plan (43)

Vessels must have a plan to inspect and maintain HVAC systems in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendations and industry standards. The written inspection, cleaning, and maintenance plan for the HVAC system must be maintained on the vessel and available for review during inspections.

Documentation of the inspection, cleaning, and maintenance plan must be available for review during inspections.

No where does it say that the HVAC must circulate X amount of air, that it be running at all times, or even that the air be tested.

And what about the crew running drying fans into the hallways, spewing molds and who knows what else? Is the CDC testing for carbon monoxide or other fumes? What about reports of the smell of sewage, surely that isn't healthy. Influenza and pneumonia are the ninth leading cause of death in America.

As far as why theaters and malls are not inspected as stringently; Well first, if the air is bad in a theater one can just leave. Secondly, most malls are not agents for foreign enterprises. When malls and theaters are built in the US they must meet building codes set by law, including those for HVAC. As far as I know there is no US government inspection on the design and building of cruise ships.

Seems that a large number of people get sick during a cruise. If ten percent of the customers are getting URIs, shouldn't that be a concern? And since HAL seems to market to an older crowd, I would think there would be increased awareness of those things that can make people ill. Turning off the HVAC while in port is just plain unhealthy.

Cruising is not for everyone.

Seeing the concerns you have shared with us in this thread, which are certainly valid for you, we all need to consider if cruising is right for us or if we should choose another place to vacation? I would not wish to be anyplace for my vacation where I was dissatisfied with the health and safety provisions offered by that ship/hotel/tour bus/whatever.

If I know there is a fair chance there could be a fan blowing air I don't wish to be exposed to, I would avoid putting myself in a circumstance I had fair reason to expect could exist. I would not go to a place I have seen it happen before and believe it possible it could be repeated. Easy. I stay away from the place/ship/hotel etc if I find it too risky or offensive for me to tolerate.

If I find the conditions unacceptable for my personal preferences, needs and comfort, I don't go there.

Right you are about the VSP inspecting the HVAC. But the inspection is pretty loose. From the manual http://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/operationsmanual/opsmanual2011.pdf

 

11.1.2.3 Inspection and Maintenance Plan (43)

Vessels must have a plan to inspect and maintain HVAC systems in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommendations and industry standards. The written inspection, cleaning, and maintenance plan for the HVAC system must be maintained on the vessel and available for review during inspections.

Documentation of the inspection, cleaning, and maintenance plan must be available for review during inspections.

 

No where does it say that the HVAC must circulate X amount of air, that it be running at all times, or even that the air be tested.

 

My first question remains, have you ever experienced the A/C being turned off? There is no cost benefit to this, as the interior of the ship will simply become a sauna, and then you have to use more energy cooling it back down. The ships even use "heat recovery wheels" that take some of the heat out of the incoming air and transfer it to the outgoing air to save on the amount of heat the A/C unit needs to remove.

 

And what about the crew running drying fans into the hallways, spewing molds and who knows what else? Is the CDC testing for carbon monoxide or other fumes? What about reports of the smell of sewage, surely that isn't healthy. Influenza and pneumonia are the ninth leading cause of death in America.

 

Just because a fan is being used to dry a carpet does not mean, ipso facto, that there is mold or mildew present. It takes a while for the spores to sprout, so if you get the moisture removed right away, there is little mold or mildew. Are you really implying that an aroma can cause flu and pneumonia? Really? I'll bet your bathroom smells pretty bad some times, yet are you worried about catching flu from a stinker?

 

As far as why theaters and malls are not inspected as stringently; Well first, if the air is bad in a theater one can just leave. Secondly, most malls are not agents for foreign enterprises. When malls and theaters are built in the US they must meet building codes set by law, including those for HVAC. As far as I know there is no US government inspection on the design and building of cruise ships.

 

Glad you think that the US is the world leader in everything. We're not. Ship design is controlled by international regulations and "market forces". The ships must have insurance. In order to get insurance, they must be designed, built, and maintained to standards set by "classification societies", which are insurance underwriters (think UL). If a ship is not designed, built, or maintained throughout its life to the standards of the class society, they will issue a "notice of class" and pull their underwriting. This will stop their insurance, and also the flag state will pull their registry (think of your car's title). Without these, the ship cannot enter or leave any port in the world. So, this takes care of the design of the HVAC system (turn over rate (how much air per hour), fresh air to recirculation ratio, etc).

 

As you say, on a cruise you expect fresh ocean breezes. This is what you get, because the movement of the ship takes the exhaust gas away from the ship, and the design again determines where the fresh air intakes are in relation to the stacks.

 

Seems that a large number of people get sick during a cruise. If ten percent of the customers are getting URIs, shouldn't that be a concern? And since HAL seems to market to an older crowd, I would think there would be increased awareness of those things that can make people ill. Turning off the HVAC while in port is just plain unhealthy.

Where did this number of 10% come from? I'd be interested to see the research.

Why do you harp on turning off the HVAC in port. I'd like you to provide one instance where this is so.

I've spent 40 years maintaining ships of all kinds, including cruise ships, and in particular, in dealing with HVAC systems.

We have cruised on Oceania, Seabourn, HAL and Celebrity. One or both of us have picked up a cold on almost every cruise. But, as others have asked, was it the cruise or was it the plane that got us there, or the airport waiting room, or the hotel we stayed in, where we picked up the virus? Of course, once someone on board is infected, then the rest of us are more exposed to the these contagious viruses. All lines do their best to reduce the chance of infection, from making you sign a form stating you are healthy when you board, to wiping down handrails, to having hand sanitizer all over the place, and so on. I bring along my own Javex wipes and wipe down every surface I can think of (do the same in hotels, and I've read you should wipe down the tray table in the airplane). and my own hand sanitizers which have stuff that cleans both viruses and bacteria...claims to be 99.9% effective! Who knows? Yet, of course, nothing is full proof. Last year DH got the cold & cough, but I did not. We can't totally immunize ourselves against every eventuality. We can only do our best to mitigate our exposure. That's life. We won't give up cruising! Too much fun! Too many places still to see! A great way to travel! So many pluses. We are heading off on our next trip with Javex wipes and Tylenol for Colds in hand, ready to sail the seven seas exploring the wonderful world we live in! [emoji571]

We were on the Zaandam on the June 24th sailing. We did the land tour first and when we got to Denali went on a Jeep Excursion. We were paired up with another couple. The woman coughed for the entire 6 hours we were in the jeep with them. I was hoping it was asthma, but she explained about a half hour into the ride that she had bronchitis. Well, both my DH and I were upset beyond belief. She did say that she had finished a ZPack a day or two before. We went the entire cruise wondering if we were going to come down with this. Luckily we didn't. I was most concerned because I have a compromised immune system due to an autoimmune disease. She had stated that she had gone to the tour desk to see if the tour was full and was going to cancel the tour and decided not to. Apparently she received a call from HAL about her illness. The excursion was very dusty due to the lack of rain they had had and I am sure it made her coughing worse. All that I can say is that we were lucky. Had we known we would have talked to the excursion manager and requested to be put in a different vehicle. I understand the amount of money involved in these trips, but I don't understand taking an excursion and exposing unknowing people to potential bronchitis. I hope the HAL doc checked her over. I have debated about putting this in, however, I do believe if you are even recovering and coughing nonstop that you should think about other people on the excursion. We went through the entire trip wondering if the antibiotics had worked for her. With the really dusty conditions she was miserable the entire trip and so were we.

I would have been very upset at such a selfish person thinking only about herself and no one else. Whatever she had paid for that excursion, you did, too. You wanted to enjoy your trip and not be selfishly exposed to illness in that way.

It really is just as simple as being courteous, respectful and a responsible person with decent manners. That woman doesn't seem to have any of those qualities.

I would have been very upset at such a selfish person thinking only about herself and no one else. Whatever she had paid for that excursion, you did, too. You wanted to enjoy your trip and not be selfishly exposed to illness in that way.

 

It really is just as simple as being courteous, respectful and a responsible person with decent manners. That woman doesn't seem to have any of those qualities.

 

 

Exactly what my DH said as we were walking back to our room at Denali. He was livid about it and I was too.

The ole "Cabin Cough" which we have experienced on too many cruises. DW has a real problem getting rid of "Cabin Cough" and has had to go to our physician (after returning home) who sometimes must use steroids to knock out the inflammation. On one occasion (Veendam) her cough was so bad that she finally went to the ship's doctor. He charged her $105, told her she "was not sick enough" and gave her some over-the-counter cough medicine. That was the time when she was not "sick enough" for nearly 2 months until steroids finally did the trick.

 

 

Hank

Hank, since I sort of pack a pharmacy when we travel, can you tell me what steroid they finally put her on to get rid of the cough? I like to be prepared for anything and I may already have it packed but would like to include it after discussing this with our doctor.

Karen

Chengkp75, I hope one day to have you on one of our cruises. You have so much information about the workings of the ship systems and I guess I find this kind of stuff interesting.....not to mention that it stops misinformation in its tracks.

Thank you.

This is the first I've read of "cruise cough". Were going on our first cruise this fall. My allergies already give me a nonstop "kitty cat" cough on bad days. Allergy meds are a given, but what type of cough meds should I pack? Just a suppressant or might we need am expectorant?

None of the over the counters helped DH when he got kennel cough. It was weeks and several office visits to get him well again. We went on a great many cruises and only caught it a handful of times but it seems to linger for many of us a long time when we get it.

I recently had by-pass surgery and am concerned whether we should still take our booked cruise in Oct. After our last two cruises DW had a bad cough for a number of weeks. I am considering cancelling, I don't want to have survived a serious operation only to catch an illness from a cruise.

On our February Maasdam cruise, lots of people had this cough. The lady in the cabin next to us sounded like she was going to cough up a lung.

On our February Maasdam cruise, lots of people had this cough. The lady in the cabin next to us sounded like she was going to cough up a lung.

that is the exact reason I am considering cancelling, I think it would wiser to allow more time for healing.

that is the exact reason I am considering cancelling, I think it would wiser to allow more time for healing.

I would discuss this thoroughly with my cardiologist before deciding, if I were you.

If you are going to attend cardiac rehab, talk to the people there, too.

On our February Maasdam cruise, lots of people had this cough. The lady in the cabin next to us sounded like she was going to cough up a lung.

Was this from the norovirus going around? It was all over the place on our May 1 cruise on Maasdam.

I recently had by-pass surgery and am concerned whether we should still take our booked cruise in Oct. After our last two cruises DW had a bad cough for a number of weeks. I am considering cancelling, I don't want to have survived a serious operation only to catch an illness from a cruise.

I was given this cruise by friends to celebrate me surviving chemotherapy. At first I was overjoyed, but as soon as I was aboard my feelings changed. Much of the food is stews and casseroles, perfect for food borne illnesses to multiply. Then the HVAC shortcomings where I smelled sewage coming up the aft stairwell, and diesel smells coming down the forward stairs.

Then there is the pitting edema caused by the food or water. Fluid collecting in the extremities is never good. I feel that this shift in water may also cause a buildup of fluid in the lungs, which may explain susceptibility to respiratory infection.

I'm glad I survived my cruise. I wish I would not have gone and instead had spent my time enjoying other things. My advice as a non-medical layperson is, cruising is for healthy people and not for people with conditions that may become unstable.

Was this from the norovirus going around? It was all over the place on our May 1 cruise on Maasdam.

You have thousands of posts, and then you ask this question? Noro is a disease of the digestive system, not of the respiratory.

Was this from the norovirus going around? It was all over the place on our May 1 cruise on Maasdam.

I don't think it was related to noro. This was a longer cruise, 49 days for many, 28 for us. I think it is related to some of the issues talked about in previous posts. Maybe its mold in the duct work, being cooped up together for that long, I don't know.

Was this from the norovirus going around? It was all over the place on our May 1 cruise on Maasdam.

It's an upper respiratory thing that seems to spread on some ships if you have one "typhoid Mary or Maurice". People that cough and don't cover their mouths.

You have thousands of posts, and then you ask this question? Noro is a disease of the digestive system, not of the respiratory.

DaveOKC has 1,000's of posts because he helps other cruisers. Nothing wrong with asking a question. Helpfulness is invaluable, courtesy costs nothing

I recently had by-pass surgery and am concerned whether we should still take our booked cruise in Oct. After our last two cruises DW had a bad cough for a number of weeks. I am considering cancelling, I don't want to have survived a serious operation only to catch an illness from a cruise.

I had two Open Heart Surgeries in four years, including a valve replacement. I went to one of the finest heart centers in the world for my surgeries and both times, my surgeon and cardiologist cleared me to travel 10weeks after each surgery. They know my late DH and I are avid cruisers and they thought it a fine place to recover more fully. I waited a bit longer only because it fit my DH's schedule better but I did absolutely fine.

We were booked to be at Eurodam's Inauguration in Rotterdam and my doctors did not want me flying to Europe etc at the time of Eurodam's Inauguration but they were fine with a short trip to FLL.

CERTAINLY you need clearance from your physicians but October is many months away and barring any complications or hard time healing etc, you should be great to sail. Listen to your doctors advice but they gave you another chance at life....... live it!!! :)

Others may have different experiences but that is mine.

I was given this cruise by friends to celebrate me surviving chemotherapy. At first I was overjoyed, but as soon as I was aboard my feelings changed. Much of the food is stews and casseroles, perfect for food borne illnesses to multiply. Then the HVAC shortcomings where I smelled sewage coming up the aft stairwell, and diesel smells coming down the forward stairs.

 

Then there is the pitting edema caused by the food or water. Fluid collecting in the extremities is never good. I feel that this shift in water may also cause a buildup of fluid in the lungs, which may explain susceptibility to respiratory infection.

 

I'm glad I survived my cruise. I wish I would not have gone and instead had spent my time enjoying other things. My advice as a non-medical layperson is, cruising is for healthy people and not for people with conditions that may become unstable.

Please excuse me but wonder if you plan to cruise again?

Seeing you visit a cruise forum on a somewhat regular basis, it seems you still have an interest in cruise ships/cruising?

Very happy you have completed your therapy and hope you are enjoying an excellent recovery.

Please excuse me but wonder if you plan to cruise again?

Seeing you visit a cruise forum on a somewhat regular basis, it seems you still have an interest in cruise ships/cruising?

 

Very happy you have completed your therapy and hope you are enjoying an excellent recovery.

 

 

Thanks. I still have surgery and then more chemo. One thing I've learned is- don't ever get cancer, it's not worth it.

As far as ever taking a cruise again, I might. The first couple of cruises were nice. But now the cruise lines are into keeping the same low prices, but offering less value. Cut a penny here and cut a penny there, and pretty soon the whole thing sucks.

Cutting the quality of food to steer people to the pay-extra restaurants is one example. Raise the price on the cruise and I'll go when I save up enough to afford it. Don't try to manipulate me once I am a captive customer.