Gardyloo

Fiji is not a member of Oneworld; they're part of the so-called "Oneworld Connect" program which means, basically, nothing.

I came across this map overlaying the two airlines' routes - pretty impressive. This is where Alaska's acquisition of Hawaiian might make a major difference in terms of alliances. As part of AS, HA will be joining Oneworld, which at present has miserable coverage in the South Pacific, with very limited service by Qantas to a couple of locations, namely Noumea and Fiji, but then only a couple of times a week. With HA/AS entering the picture, I could see a strong case being made for Qantas/AS codeshares and "fifth freedom" flights to allow transpacific connections through Tahiti, or American Samoa, or maybe a new HNL-NAN (Nadi, Fiji) route that could open a whole new t-pac route and capture part of the enormous demand by Aussies for travel to the Pacific islands. The last time any Oneworld carrier served Tahiti was Lan Chile/Latam with connecting service through Easter Island to Santiago. Since Latam exited Oneworld a couple of years ago, Tahiti has been the sold province of Air France and their partner Air Tahiti Nui. That could change big time.

Southwest flies nonstop from Oakland, Las Vegas, San Diego, San Jose, Phoenix and Sacramento to Honolulu. Both LAS-HNL and PHX-HNL are farther than SEA-HNL. Their ETOPS* rated fleet continues to grow. *Extended-range Twin-engine Operations Performance Standards, or more commonly, "Engines turn or passengers swim."

Rent a car or minivan (or two cars if there are six of you) in Skagway and drive up to the Carcross Desert, Emerald Lake and the Robinson Roadhouse ghost town in the Yukon. Google them.

Instead of the long (and IMO largely boring) drive up to Talkeetna, consider a Denali flight from Anchorage. While the flights are a little more expensive, they're longer (more scenery) and a big advantage is that if Denali is socked in (which happens often) the Anchorage operators have alternative options - Chugach Mountains and Knik Glacier, Prince William Sound and Harding icefield, across Cook Inlet to volcano country... It's worth noting that Rust's, a large and well-respected floatplane operator on Lake Hood in Anchorage, is the parent company of K2 Aviation, the main operator out of Talkeetna. If you went flightseeing out of Anchorage, you could spend your driving day heading south to Girdwood, the Alaska Wildlife Conservation Center, and a "26 glacier" cruise out of Whittier. OR, you cold head north and visit Hatcher Pass, do a helicopter tour of Knik Glacier, visit the Native village of Eklutna, etc. Map south (east) - https://maps.app.goo.gl/9YQ1BAoSvCPoU8999 Map north - https://maps.app.goo.gl/rmkbihAKT2Rqkufj9 Rust's - Alaska Flightseeing Tours & Air Charters | Rust's Aviation (flyrusts.com) Knik Glacier -

Years ago I became acquainted with a very cool guy who at the time was in charge of an Alaska state agency, but whose true love was art. Bill Spear, getting old like me, has a gallery in Juneau featuring his specialty, marvelous enameled lapel pins and zipper pulls, that you can buy online. Here's a link to his online gallery page featuring Alaska designs - Wm Spear Design | Catalog . Maybe an Alaska flag or Juneau pin, or one featuring some Alaska fish, animal or bird. The quality of these pins is superb. Another artist producing humorous (affordable) designs - T-shirts, posters, pins, etc. - is Ray Troll. His "Spawn till you die" posters and pins are recognized throughout the Pacific Northwest and Alaska. Maybe something in a T-shirt or poster? Store - Troll Art

Are you aware of the road situation at Denali, i.e. that the park road is closed around the halfway point? IMO adding "nights" to a Denali-area stay would be compounding the problem of there not being enough to do given the limitations on accessing the park. I think something to consider in lieu of one of the flying or fly/bus tours through unremarkable countryside up to sign announcing you're at the arctic circle (and the sign actually isn't, last I heard) is to visit an actual Native American community which IS above the arctic circle, and which in fact is on the shores of the Arctic Ocean. The Native town of Kotzebue is reached by one or two daily direct flights (either nonstop or one-stop) on Alaska Airlines from Anchorage. Round trip airfare is around $320, which is generally less than the "arctic circle" excursions from Fairbanks. September is too late for "midnight sun," but you can stay at a comfortable Native-owned hotel located across the street from the oceanfront, learn about life in this challenging and remarkable place, and see a face of Alaska missed by 90% or more of visitors. You might see the aurora from Kotzebue - it ought to get dark enough. Maybe worth considering.

I just checked on Expedia and a one-way one-day rental car from downtown Vancouver to downtown Seattle for Aug. 31 - Sept. 1 will cost between US$160 and $200, depending on vehicle size/type. For two passengers that works out at $100 pp plus fuel (nominal.) Those costs include the one-way drop fee. That's probably more expensive than the bus; it's roughly half what flying would cost (not counting the cost to get to YVR and from SEA locally.) Both the bus and flying alternatives would require a hotel night in Seattle, at very high cost. What I would do is to go the car route. Monitor the reader boards along BC 99 as you approach the border and go with the crossing with the shortest waits (either the Peace Arch or the Pacific Highway/Truck Crossing, just east of the Peace Arch) then take your time heading south - visit Fairhaven and go along Chuckanut Drive (a very scenic alternative to the I-5 freeway.) Stop in picturesque La Conner for a late lunch, but then continue south but stop short of Seattle for the night. By doing so you can (hopefully) avoid Seattle hotel prices for the night, and also parking fees that come with downtown hotels. There are decent hotels in some of Seattle's northern suburbs; again, if it was me I'd see if there was space in the very cool Silver Cloud Hotel built on piers next to the ferry terminal in Mukilteo, just south of Everett and around a 40-minute drive from Seattle. The morning of the first, drive to the rental car station in Seattle, drop the car, Uber to Pier 91, done. Note that's Labor/Labour Day weekend in both countries, so traffic won't be typical. The big rushes at the border will be on Friday and Monday; you'll be traveling on Saturday and Sunday. To me, that would present a good combination of economy and a terrific drive. Map - https://maps.app.goo.gl/zV1dP4ucD75H7WA66

A couple of alternative to the (pricey) train in Skagway - 1. Rent a car (Avis) for the day and drive up into the Yukon. The scenery is terrific; you can visit the and continue past pretty Emerald Lake to the Robinson Roadhouse ghost town, where you'll likely be the only people there, disturbing the peace for several hundred noisy ground squirrels and marmots. Map - https://maps.app.goo.gl/maBRbG2Wo4mb1gTdA 2. Haines and Chilkoot bears. If you can afford the time and expense, go on the high-speed catamaran to Haines, where you can (hopefully) see bears going after salmon in the Chilkoot River, not to mention (probably) a whole lot of eagles - Haines is the self-proclaimed "bald eagle capital" of North America. Maybe, maybe not, but plenty of the birds around.

Haven't stayed there (I live in Seattle) but many friends have; I HAVE eaten numerous times at Lola, the in-house restaurant, a creation of local celebrity chef Tom Douglas. It's a very nice boutique-style hotel, taken over some time ago by the international Accor chain as one of its signature-type properties. I think you'll be quite comfortable there.

There's some good information in this thread and some that's... er... um... 1. Timing. Most international airlines open their booking windows at 330 to 360 days before the actual flight. But it's NOT the case that the cheapest fares are available at the beginning of the booking period. The airlines use extremely complex (and very secret) algorithms to set fares throughout the booking period, and those robots never sleep. Their overarching aim is to maximize profits for the airline. They will do so by adjusting what fares are available based on historic, projected, and real-time factors - the competition, fuel prices, day of week and month, on and on. They can open or close fare "buckets" - the actual fares with their rules and limitations - instantly, maybe several times a week, or even in a day. Put yourself in the airline's shoes (or chips, whatever.) When booking opens in month one, why would they sell seats at the lowest price when the price of fuel might spike in month seven? Or if the bag handlers at Barcelona or Baton Rouge go on strike in month four? The answer is that they hedge to honor rule no. 1, so if costs spike, the early birds will have paid enough to offset any losses the airline might suffer. Or if later in the booking period their algorithms show that seats are under-selling compared to the model, or that some other airline has lowered prices on the same routes, badda bing, the fare goes down. Or close to the end of the window, when there are just a few seats left, they will raise prices to capture the business that can't afford to wait, or they'll release those seats into award inventory to wipe some of the outstanding miles off their books (a "contingent liability" in accountant speak.) Now if you think you can outsmart those computers, good on ya. You should probably be in Vegas rather than reading this thread. Otherwise, keep tabs on the prices and when you see something you can live with, pull the trigger and stop watching after that. But don't assume the early birds get the worms. Sometimes they get cats. 2. Open jaws and OTAs. "Multi-city" ticketing (aka "open jaws") are done all the time, and usually cost around the same as a round trip. Two one-way tickets will almost always end up costing a lot more than either a round trip or an open-jaw. And while buying from the airline directly is usually a good idea, the OTAs like Expedia have their benefits, in that they can put an itinerary together using airlines that aren't necessarily partners with one another, e.g. American to Barcelona, United back from Athens. The airlines for the most part (a few outliers like Southwest) all agree to handle bags checked with some other airline, even if the airlines aren't business partners or members of the same alliance. The airlines won't generally book you on a competitor's flights, even if it's cheaper, but OTAs aren't burdened by that rule. As always, comparison shopping is the key. Hope that's not confusing.

Does points.me include information on the additional taxes and fees that are required over and above the miles/points "price?" That can make all the difference in a go/no-go decision.

Use your Sky Pesos or Flying Blue miles/points for the intra-Europe segments; there's usually good availability on KLM or Air France and okay redemption rates.

There are also a couple of (very annoying) technical issues in using American or Alaska miles. In the case of using American miles, most itineraries to what I'll call "secondary" destinations (no offense intended) like Rome or Athens will include a transfer to British Airways at London, since AA has very limited, if any, nonstop service to those cities from the US. By including a segment on BA (e.g. LHR-ATH) AA will add BA's awful surcharges and fees (not taxes - those are already added) to the cash needed on top of the miles. These can be outrageous and can reduce the value of your miles by as much as half. You may very well be much better off looking for mileage seats to some non-UK destination for a round trip, then buying the connecting legs separately with money. My hunch is that you'd probably have less out-of-pocket costs doing so. Look at Madrid, Paris, Helsinki, Dublin or Rome, all of which have nonstop flights from someplace in the USA. From SAN you'd have to change planes en route, probably in Dallas, Charlotte or Philly, but you might still be $$ ahead. There's a different (or I should say additional) problem with Alaska miles. Unlike American, Alaska does not allow combining multiple partners in one itinerary, so, e.g., flying on American to London, then BA to Athens, isn't allowed. You'd have to fly BA all the way, for which the fees would probably be in the $1000 range in each direction on top of the 65,000 miles. That's ridiculous for a ticket that you could probably purchase outright for $2500 or so round trip. So again, consider looking for an intermediate point in Europe that you can reach using AA. For example, using AS miles, a one-way business class ticket to Madrid the week after Thanksgiving (this year) would require 57.5K AS miles plus $19 in fees, with a routing of SAN-xMIA-MAD versus over $1000 in fees if routed through London. A one-way ticket from Madrid to Rome the next day would cost $69 in economy and $202 in business. Not trying to put you off, but maybe some things to consider.

I used to have a travel consulting service through which I did this sort of thing for clients. I quit when some airlines went to dynamic pricing, making the practice a lot more difficult. I can't speak to any of the current consultants but I'd personally probably just do it myself. What cards or airlines are on the "possible" list? One thing to watch out for are "user fees" and surcharges added to the miles required. These can reduce the value of the miles hugely.

If it's like Bermuda, have you thought about heading east instead? In general flights to Australia/NZ from the UK or mainland Europe tend to be a little cheaper - sometimes a lot cheaper - than from the US east coast. It's not that it's closer, it's that there's more demand.

The basic choices: Quickcoach - $40 - $60 per person (depending on baggage) - roughly 5 1/2 hours. Amtrak Cascades (train) - $30 - $50 per person depending on when booked. 4 1/2 hours to downtown Seattle, plus connection (public transportation or cab/Uber) to airport - $3 to $40 (for whole vehicle.) Two trains daily, early morning and early evening. Amtrak bus - same or a bit less than the train, several departures daily. Also around 4 1/2 hours, also requires connection to airport Fly - $170 - $200 (Air Canada or Alaska Airlines) - from YVR airport, 1 hr, numerous daily departures. Rental car - Usually around $200, can be less if early in the season. Around 3 1/2 hours depending on traffic and border delays. --- Regarding the train, the morning train departs too early to make same-day connections off arriving cruise ships, and the evening train arrives in Seattle too late for most flights out, making for either an extra night in Vancouver (to catch the next morning's train) or an extra night in Seattle before flying the next day. So while the plane fare might be less, the total out of pocket might not be. The Amtrak Cascades train route runs along the coast for much of the way and is reasonably scenic. The Amtrak buses, Quickcoach, and any Greyhound buses travel along Interstate 5, which is not especially scenic. Flights and the train "pre-clear" US border controls (passport control, customs) before leaving Vancouver; the other modes require a stop at the border for inspection and clearance, adding anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour or more depending on the day. With four, a rental car potentially offers a cost-effective ($50 per person) price, more flexibility, and, if desired, the ability to take an alternate route, potentially a more scenic one. Google the places on this map for example - https://maps.app.goo.gl/tNYfJ7o2yKfbEtUJ7

If one could hear eyes rolling, it's likely that this post would result in that sound coming from the likes of Globaliser, Flyer Talker, and other frequent posters on this board, because it's a replay of numerous other posts I've made over the past few years. So be it. Now I/we have no idea about your budget, how often you cruise, how much time you might be able to spend traveling over the coming year, on and on. Without knowing some of these things, it's likely that the following is a waste of bytes. But just in case, here goes. Member airlines of the two biggest airline alliances, Oneworld (American, Alaska, Qantas, British, Japan, many others) and Star Alliance (United, Air Canada, Lufthansa, Singapore, ANA, Air New Zealand, many others) all sell "round the world" tickets (RTWs) that allow multiple flights (up to 16) to be taken over the course of 12 months. You have to cross both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, going in the same direction, and end up in the country from which the travel began. Along the way, however, you can zigzag and backtrack to a considerable degree, provided you don't exceed the maximum mileage allowed under the ticket (for Star Alliance tickets) or the number of continents touched (for the Oneworld RTWs.) There are lots of rules and dos and don'ts, but the bottom line is that this CAN be a surprisingly economical way to see the world - in business class - depending on where you begin and end the trip. Take your Australia/NZ cruise. Right now for departures in this November, round trip business class from NYC to Sydney and/or Auckland is running upwards of $9000 on most carriers. Premium economy on some days/carriers is somewhere between $3500 and $6000, which (in my view) is still in the realm of "are you crazy?" Will fares for next November be higher or lower? Your guess is as good as mine, unless you're a Hogwarts graduate. Those fares won't appear until around the first of the year, but when they do, it's unlikely they'll be much less if at all, because the airlines hate uncertainty, and one way they hedge is by setting prices high at the opening of the booking period, in case their costs - fuel, labor, etc. - spike in the meantime. Protect them profits, chaps! But one big feature of RTW tickets is that they're priced VERY differently depending on where the trip begins and ends. A Oneworld business class RTW ticket suitable for travel to Australia/NZ that has the trip beginning and ending in the US has a base price (before taxes and fees) of $11,071. However, the same ticket, but with travel beginning and ending in Norway, has a base price of $5242, less than half the US price. Ask your Hogwarts prof why, but that's what it is. Now, what do you get for that price? Well, you get up to 16 flights over the course of 12 months. Starting in Europe, you'd need a ticket that's good for four continents - Europe, North America, Australia/Pacific, and either Asia or Africa. You can spread those flights out over the full 12 months, stopping over for months at a time if you choose. So imagine this. (Note I'm making this up - it could be completely different.) Sometime next spring you get a cheap flight over the Atlantic. Maybe a springtime cruise on the Mediterranean. Use the cruise line's air service for a one-way booking. (Or maybe you take a repositioning cruise in the spring from Florida to Barcelona or some such.) Enjoy a cruise or non-cruise couple of weeks in Europe, then hop up to Oslo - maybe a hundred bucks from London. You've already bought your RTW tickets, so you turn up at the Oslo airport and get on a plane - in business class - and head back home. There aren't (at the moment) any nonstop flights from Oslo to NYC operated by Oneworld airlines, so maybe the first flight is to Helsinki, then Finnair nonstop to JFK, or to London, or Doha, or Madrid, thence home. The ticket allows six flights (of the 16 maximum) within North America, which includes the Caribbean and Central America. Maybe you use the ticket for an Alaska cruise, or for a non-cruise holiday in California, or the Canadian Rockies, or maybe for business trips to Texas or to see family in Puerto Rico... I don't know. But then you end up back home. Come November and it's time for the Sydney-Auckland cruise. So it's off to Auckland on the Qantas nonstop, or to Sydney via LAX, or via Honolulu... all in the flat beds in the pointy end. Cruise over, you fly from Auckland to Hong Kong, thence through Asia and ultimately back in Norway before the ticket turns back into a pumpkin. Stop in the Maldives? Singapore for the best food on Earth? No problem. OR, if you really have the travel bug and with enough time, fly on Qantas' nonstop from Sydney to Johannesburg, and go on a safari for a week or so. Then it's back to Norway, game over. You'll have earned enough frequent flyer miles to fly home on miles, or maybe you've put together a master plan/bucket list and just buy another RTW and keep on circling the planet. Now I'll stop here. If this interests you, post a reply and I can get deeper into the weeds. Sounds of eyes rolling.

I'd suggest you do your homework on access to Denali NP while the park road is still closed past MP 43 and also in May, when things have barely begun in the park even in "normal" years.

Look at the Alaska Airlines-branded Visa card which will give you a bunch of Alaska miles at sign-up but which also provides you with an annual $99 "companion certificate" - one passenger pays the going price, the companion pays $99 plus taxes (usually $122 total) on any Alaska Airlines ticket - round trip, open jaw, one way. So if the fare from St, Louis to, say, Seattle is $500, the price for two would be $622, or $311 per person. Alaska miles are also very useful - many partners and decent redemption rates.

A few connected or unconnected thoughts... When - June. It looks like schools in your district let out the week before Memorial Day, so cruising in June (early- or mid-month) is probably the best. While there are no guarantees, generally glacier viewing from the ships is easier later in the summer compared to earlier, owing to less sea ice and icebergs/floes hampering access into the bay(s.) Also see below in "ports of call" regarding a possible bear-viewing opportunity in Haines. One way/round trip. Since it sounds (rightly) that budget is a concern, I'd advocate a round trip cruise rather than a one-way that starts or ends in Seward or Whittier. Adding a land portion will cause the cost to spike, would require more time away, cost more in airfare, and, until the internal park road at Denali National Park is repaired (probably 2026) that excursion would be less than optimal. Departure/arrival point. Vancouver, hands down, and I say that as a Seattleite. The Seattle boats travel on open ocean west of Vancouver Island, on rougher seas and far from any coastal views, while the Vancouver boats stay on protected "Inside Passage" waters for more of the time - lots more. PLUS - and this is a big plus in my mind - there are few places more enjoyable for kids than Vancouver. Google these places/activities - Grouse Mountain, Lynn Canyon suspension bridge, Bloedel Conservatory, Stanley Park, Granville Island market, Vancouver Aquarium, Bard on the Beach, Richmond Night Market... on and on. You could even rent a car and drive up to Whistler for an overnight - the "Sea to Sky" highway to Whistler is one of the most beautiful drives in North America. Cruise line. If you sort for round trips and Vancouver start/end, you'll also be reducing the eligible cruise lines; only a few (Royal Caribbean, HAL, a couple of Princess itineraries, maybe Celebrity) operate those routes. Alaska cruises tend to be port-intensive and the differences between cruise lines might not be as important as in other regions. Ports of call. I'd strongly urge you to consider an itinerary that includes Sitka. In my view Sitka has so much going for it in terms of history, beauty, wildlife... that not including it would be a mistake. Google "St. Lazaria Island" to see what I mean. Another priority might be to look for a cruise that stops in Haines, which not only is (by its own telling) the "bald eagle capital" of Alaska, but which also offers views of brown bears going after salmon in the Chilkoot River a couple of miles from town. The bears won't turn up in numbers until the salmon arrive, usually in mid-June, so if that's a priority, cruising later in the month rather than earlier might improve the chances of seeing the bears. Cost-savings on airfare. You might want to look at an Alaska Airlines-branded Visa card, which not only comes with a bunch of Alaska miles (very useful - many partners) at signup, but which also provides you with an annual "companion certificate" where one passenger pays the going rate and the second pays a flat $99 plus taxes (usually $122 all in) to fly the same flights - round trip, one-way, open-jaw, etc. So say you want to cruise out of Vancouver, and let's imagine the round trip airfare on Alaska Airlines (plane change in Seattle) is $700. (I'm just making things up, mind you.) The first person pays $700, the companion pays $122, and the third (your son) uses some of the miles you got from signing up for the credit card) and pays $20 in taxes. Total for 3 = $842, or an average of $280 each. Alaska flies nonstop from CVG to SEA, so it would be hard for things to be any easier. I'll stop here, sorry for blathering on and on. Happy planning!

The cruise tours have apparently kept to itineraries that are very Denali-centered, despite the fact that the only road into the interior of the national park is closed short of the halfway point due to landslides, and is unlikely to reopen completely until 2026, maybe even later. As a result, the number and length of tours into the park has been reduced, and while the tour packages try to advertise the glories of Denali to keep people coming, the reality is that you're likely to have a lot of time on your hands with four nights in the area (two of which are not that close to Denali.) The cruise lines either own or control the hotels in the area, and obviously don't want to give up the revenue that might result if people chose to visit Denali on their own, or to skip it in favor of some other (more accessible) attractions. IMO the cruise tours aren't all that good value in the first place; spending 2/3 of your time for a reduced Denali experience strikes me as even poorer value.

There's an (apparently) widespread belief that cheap seats and award seats on any given flight are made available as soon as a booking window opens, typically 330 to 360 days before the flight. But that's just not the case. Put yourself in the airline's shoes (I know, hard.) What will the price of jet fuel be eleven months from now? Will the mechanics, or cabin staff, or pilots threaten work stoppages if their contract demands aren't satisfied? Will some new airline start competing on the same (or similar) routes, perhaps some "discount" carrier? Or will somebody exit the route? Will the global economy soften, or a war break out, or...? Uncertainty = risk, and the airlines HATE risk. So they can - and often do - simply set airfares high enough early in the booking window to hedge against that risk. Set the price high enough in month 1 to cover costs should the price of fuel go up in month 6. Not to mention, your money is in THEIR bank earning interest (yeah, not much, but not zero) instead of yours. Later, once their operating costs are better known, and when the economic or political landscape is more predictable, they can lower prices to stimulate more sales. They can do that until it gets close enough to the flight date that the only people left willing to pay higher fares are those who don't have any choice - last minute flyers, business travelers, people who need to get to someone's funeral or wedding, things like that. The prices will climb right up to when the door closes and the security video is showing. For award seats, the same thing applies, with the added dimension that while the airlines aren't getting cash for those seats, they're removing a contingent liability from their financial statements. The airlines view outstanding mileage balances as liabilities, so allowing mileage redemptions plays big time into their profit and loss statements. If the same computers that decide when to reduce or raise prices for paid seats determine that releasing one or two into award inventory poses more benefit than risk to the airline's bottom line, they'll release them. That might happen any day between day 1 and day 330; in fact often more seats are released at the last minute, when the computers have determined it's unlikely the seats will sell for the then-prevailing high prices. Some other factors also come into play. First, summer is when peak demand hits for economy seats on international flights. Makes sense - people going on vacations. But it's also the season when business travel falls off (business people go on vacations too) so demand for business class seats falls off sharply in turn. It seems ironic, but business class fares, especially on transatlantic routes, are typically lowest in the summer, the same time when economy fares are at their highest. So all these words mean what to you? Simple. Keep track of fares, by all means, and when you see one that works with your budget, go for it. BUT, remember that fares typically follow a "U" curve over the booking window - high to low then back to high. Patience can pay off, sometimes big time, and remember that early birds don't always get worms; sometimes they get cats.

How flexible are you on time and days? Reason for asking, is that if you were willing to fly from GSP to Toronto, probably the day before your current plan, in order to be safe for the transatlantic connection, you could fly round trip from Toronto to Paris in business class on Air France for around US$2200 round trip. The round trip (in coach) from GSP to YYZ is around $570 (Delta via LGA or ATL) so altogether you'd be out $2800 or thereabouts, for a MUCH more pleasant experience. The downside is the flight time to/from Toronto and possibly a hotel night going and/or coming back. It might be worth considering.

I would also recommend the Robinson Roadhouse ghost town as the turn-around point. Kids can get a kick out of the old buildings, and the very noisy protesting marmots that populate the site. I'd also stop at the Carcross Desert for something quite unexpected in the north. https://maps.app.goo.gl/28BBe7nK24QG9Z67A