Itinerary change

[dakrewser]

Dave you bring up an interesting point with your last comment. My question is..What would happen if ALL or as many as we could reach with this thread who are affected by this change made complaint calls to HAL about the change? Does anyone think that they would make an attempt to go back to the origional itinerary to appease the customer?

 

Without knowing why the change occured, there's no way to tell. I'm sure that if it was within HAL's control they would revert to the original itinerary - it would make the most sense.

[MandyGirl]

Is HAL's web site screwed up? Usually.

 

Do itineraries change for various reasons? Sure do.

 

Is this "bait & switch?" Better have good evidence 'cause that's a criminal offense.

 

Did anyone ever actually call HAL to follow up on this? Not that I can see in hundreds of postings.

 

- I wonder if HAL could possibly look at ways to improve the accuracy of it's company website since it apparently has problems?:confused: An internet supervisor knew of these problems last summer (his comments pasted on this thread, post #57).

 

- We all know itineraries can change, but two years in a row on the same ship with the same two ports on multiple sailings covering a span of six months this year... and only 2 months warning for April cruisers?:confused: It's surprising (to me) HAL had no idea after last summer's switchings that the same exact switchings would need to occur again beginning this April, but apparently those things happen.

 

- "bait & switch" was a term used by superstein in his post linked in the thread I referenced from last July. I'm sorry - I didn't realize it was a criminal offense - I just thought it was a term he used. (I'm a math teacher and not very familiar with corporate law :( but seem to learn something new everyday:) )

 

- No, I personally never called HAL last summer, as other CC posters would call HAL and get one answer... and then receive an email from an online comment that contradicted the phone answer. However, I had copy/pasted the contents of two emails I received from "Jim, Internet Department Supervisor, Holland America Line". Dates of the emails: 7/21/04 (two) and 7/22/04 (the third email dated 7/22 was just a follow-up thanking me again for sharing my concerns). In a reply to him I had referenced specific CC threads and he thanked me for providing the CC links regarding people receiving different info via phone, email, and website (contents here on replies #52 and #57) But again, I did not call. Only emailed. That's just the way I prefer to do things because having something in writing (email) helps jog my memory if I forget a detail. :)

 

Reason for change??

Just trying to put two and two together and thinking out loud here...

The original post on this thread for 2005 said "Due to berthing conflicts".

The reply I had last summer said "the change of day allows us to berth at the cruiseship terminal, as opposed to the cargo dock".

Based on the OP's email and the email I received last summer, it seems to tie back to the number of berths available in port during the summer months. For STT we've docked at Havensight, Crown Bay (11/04), and tendered on previous cruises. Tortola we docked with another HAL ship. Neither email really specified which port (or both) was experiencing "berthing conflicts" during the months April-October. So that info might help us decide our Thanksgiving cruise as we are researching it now.

[anngie]

Mandy Girl, have you wondered why the cruise line would change their departing time? There are no other ships in port at that time of night. Could it be because they are trying to save money by paying a cheaper port charge? In that case if the PAX have paid the port charge that included staying until eleven o'clock would not they be due a refund?

We looked at this cruise last year and almost booked it. We found out just by reading this board that the itinerary had been changed. We were so glad that we had not spent our money on the cruise because the late stay in St Thomas was the main reason that we were considering it. In our reasons to book a cruise, the itinerary is at least 60%. We used to sail on an old ratty ship that is no longer in service, The Regal Empress, mainly because of it's great itineraries.

[Silverfox]

We sailed on her last May and our days were switched between Tortola and St. Thomas, too. Although it may be an inconvenience, when we later heard how many ships were in port on the original date, it was so nice to be there the following day when we only had 2 other ships in port.

 

And the reason we were told that the time was changed for departure, was for security reasons. There had been a few incidents of both passengers and crew experiencing unsafe situations once it got dark. I can't vouch for the accuracy of that, but that is what a crew member told us.

 

Safety is always a concern for the cruiselines and it is best to change the schedule if it isn't good.

 

Be glad the cruiseline is looking out for your enjoyment by not being at a port when it is extrememly crowded, and also changing the time of departure according to what is safe.

[Chadzbrew]

This is the site I used to determine where ships are- http://www.cruisecal.com/dnn/

[wannago30]

I will enjoy my cruise even with the shortened time in St. Thomas, with that being said they changed the times right after we made a final payment. I understand that things may be out of the cruise lines control. I booked for the time in St. Thomas, not the only reason but one of the major contributing factors. It seems like Holland America does this frequently and that leads me to believe that there is a little bit of an integrity problem with the cruise line itself. I will again say we will have a great cruise no matter what, but I still am not happy with the way it happened. Weather factors are one thing, dissapointing but understandable. Advertising a 11pm then 9pm and then 6pm seems like it could of been avoided. Just honest thoughts.

[Oceanwench]

Did anyone ever actually call HAL to follow up on this? Not that I can see in hundreds of postings.

 

DH was going to call, but as the e-mail said "due to berthing problems," he figured the customer service people would tell him, "It's due to berthing problems."

 

Knowing the nitty gritty of what those problems are doesn't help, nor change the fact that the itinerary has been changed.

I can't say I am bothered by it as much as others, but that's because I wasn't planning anything special in the evening on St. Thomas.

 

Someone along the line mentioned that only the times were changed.

No, days were changed as well for St. Thomas and Tortola.

 

As far as "bait and switch," I think the term has come to have a more common usage these days. I don't think anyone is accusing HAL of having criminal intent!

 

Bottom line in cruising: There are no guarantees with itineraries. Yes, you can choose a certain ship based on its itinerary, but you always have to keep it in the back of your mind that your port might be skipped ... due to weather or mechanical problems ... or even "berthing problems."

 

It's like going to the Magic Kingdom and finding out that Space Mountain is shut down for maintenance. You deal with it, and go on having fun.

[MandyGirl]

Mandy Girl, have you wondered why the cruise line would change their departing time? There are no other ships in port at that time of night. Could it be because they are trying to save money by paying a cheaper port charge? In that case if the PAX have paid the port charge that included staying until eleven o'clock would not they be due a refund?

Anngie - Interesting - I had not thought of that - but it had originally been midnight before changing to 11:00 and then 9:00. Seeing this new thread appear this week and reading that people think they had seen the same scenario last summer, I piped in to reference the exact threads. (Then I kept following the thread).

As far as an earlier departure time, the first email I posted (in post #52 on that other thread) had this from HAL internet supervisor:

"Our original departure time of 12:00 midnight has been scaled back one hour -- that has been the only change to my knowledge -- likely due to the accommodate for the need to leave the pier well before midnight in order to avoid being charged a pier fee for the subsequent calendar day which begins at midnight. "

Maybe that helps clarify when the port charges are assessed? But it seems now they have all been advertised as 11:00 versus midnight.

With regard to the overall swap - I've also wondered if maybe they are doing more additions to Crown Bay that prohibit ships from docking there in these upcoming months. :confused: I have not noticed anything on the local USVI boards, but wondered if that could be the possible "berthing conflict". Havensight holds three ships I believe, and I think someone said Crown Bay will hold two?

Either way, this thread has just reminded me to keep an open mind for researching our next Caribbean cruise. :)

[Linda&Vern]

And the reason we were told that the time was changed for departure, was for security reasons. There had been a few incidents of both passengers and crew experiencing unsafe situations once it got dark. I can't vouch for the accuracy of that, but that is what a crew member told us. Safety is always a concern for the cruiselines and it is best to change the schedule if it isn't good. Be glad the cruiseline is looking out for your enjoyment by not being at a port when it is extrememly crowded, and also changing the time of departure according to what is safe.

Just last week a business associate of mine told me this exact same thing. He had visited the St. John/St. Thomas area over the Holidays this year and someone he knows who lives there insisted he and his family not go anywhere after dark unless the local accompanied them because of what the local called "unsafe" situations.

[cruzingqueen]

Just last week a business associate of mine told me this exact same thing. He had visited the St. John/St. Thomas area over the Holidays this year and someone he knows who lives there insisted he and his family not go anywhere after dark unless the local accompanied them because of what the local called "unsafe" situations.

 

I am in federal law enforcement based in the States. My counterpart is based in St. Thomas and has frequently made comments that he goes straight home when he gets off duty. He has discussed a high rate and likelihood of restaurant robberies in the evenings. I have often thought of putting in for this assignment when he leaves next year, but being female, was told it is probably not a good idea. ALSO, the stores in St. Thomas close up at 5PM regardless of how many cruise ships are in port which I have always found strange. Safety may have alot to do with HAL's decision.

[Giorgi-one]

If it is really a safety issue, why doesn't HAL just say so. I believe that most passengers would understand this reason for a change. I personally would never want to be near the port in ANY Caribbean island after dark or after the crowds leave.

[Orcrone]

If it is really a safety issue, why doesn't HAL just say so. I believe that most passengers would understand this reason for a change. I personally would never want to be near the port in ANY Caribbean island after dark or after the crowds leave.

I can understand them not stating that reason, if that truly is the reason. You don't want to advertise that a port is not safe. Also, may there be some libel issues if they make statements like that?

[michmike]

anyone have some REAL info re safety in St Thomas after dark? Think this is being overhyped. Where are the statistics? Anyone actually know of anyone who had a problem?

 

Any of you ever been out after dark in LA? New Orleans? Chicago? NYC? Paris? Sure you need to use some common sense and not go wandering back alleys or flashing big wads of money.. but that makes every bit as much sense during the day as well.

 

Get a grip. If you stay after dark and go to a restaurant or bar in St Thomas and have them call you a taxi (which they will gladly do), and you return to the ship you're not anymore likely to have a problem than you would in the cities listed. Get a grip!!

 

We had a wonderful dinner in November after dark in St Thomas and wouldn't have missed it for the world. AND escaped unscathed to tell the story..

 

But hey.. I spend my days working with convicts.. so maybe have a greater tolerance for risk.

[dakrewser]

anyone have some REAL info re safety in St Thomas after dark?

 

According to one travel site:

 

"Safety is a concern on St. Thomas, particularly in Charlotte Amalie. Petty theft and more serious crimes such as muggings and rape do exist here. In tandem with the rest of the world, drugs, poverty, and plain old bad guys affect the crime rates.

 

Having said that, the dangers on St. Thomas are no more frequent or harsh than in many urban areas throughout the world. The problem, given the balmy days and welcoming locals, is that tourists can be lulled into a false sense of security.

 

Be smart, there can always be trouble in paradise. Never walk deserted beaches at night, even though the moonlight and lapping waves are appealing. Don’t venture into unknown areas of Charlotte Amalie at night, or into several areas during the day (the Paul M. Pearson Garden housing complex, Harris Court near Nelson Mandela Circle by the Havensight Mall, lower Kronprindsens Gade, and Hospital Ground at Sugar Estate and off Sugar Estate Road).

 

Use a taxi when traveling around Charlotte Amalie at night to minimize your chances of getting lost. Lock your valuables in the hotel or room safe. When going to the beach, keep your rental car locked and don’t leave items alone on the beach. "

To paraphrase one poster (oh, that's right, it was you!) - "typical [island] apologist responses again to folk's legitimate concerns. Why is it that a person with a complaint is always wrong?"

[michmike]

dakrewser - think the info you posted pretty much echos my suggestions re common sense after dark.

 

and there is a big difference between contradicting what someone says happened to THEM and questioning the accuracy of reports from a friend of a friend.

 

I've yet to see any reports that any cruise ship passenger was robbed, raped or pillaged by simple virtue of being in St Thomas after dark. For those that don't want to take that chance.. get back on the ship before dark.

 

Then again, don't know about HAL but have read reports of rapes aboard Carnival ships. Are we safe anywhere?

[michmike]

for further info go to the Carnival board and type in the word "rape" in the search line and then click on the thread "rape and man overboard"

[Oceanwench]

According to one travel site:

 

"Safety is a concern on St. Thomas, particularly in Charlotte Amalie. Petty theft and more serious crimes such as muggings and rape do exist here. In tandem with the rest of the world, drugs, poverty, and plain old bad guys affect the crime rates.

 

Having said that, the dangers on St. Thomas are no more frequent or harsh than in many urban areas throughout the world. The problem, given the balmy days and welcoming locals, is that tourists can be lulled into a false sense of security.

 

Be smart, there can always be trouble in paradise. Never walk deserted beaches at night, even though the moonlight and lapping waves are appealing. Don’t venture into unknown areas of Charlotte Amalie at night, or into several areas during the day (the Paul M. Pearson Garden housing complex, Harris Court near Nelson Mandela Circle by the Havensight Mall, lower Kronprindsens Gade, and Hospital Ground at Sugar Estate and off Sugar Estate Road).

 

Use a taxi when traveling around Charlotte Amalie at night to minimize your chances of getting lost. Lock your valuables in the hotel or room safe. When going to the beach, keep your rental car locked and don’t leave items alone on the beach. "

To paraphrase one poster (oh, that's right, it was you!) - "typical [island] apologist responses again to folk's legitimate concerns. Why is it that a person with a complaint is always wrong?"

 

Sounds exactly like Fort Lauderdale!

When we lived there, DH and I would marvel [from the safety of our car] at how people would wander around the high crime areas. We always figured they were tourists who had no idea there was trouble in paradise.

 

Um ... sounds a lot like a lot of places -- not just St. Thomas.

What about New Orleans? High crime rate, no? That's what a native told me.

Yet people wander the French Quarter at night.

 

What about Orlando? Lots of petty theft, mugging, etc. etc.

 

St. Thomas is no worse, I am betting, than many places.

On the Oosterdam last Nov., we were in Cozumel till after dark -- may 9:30 or so.

 

OH ... just remembered this: We were on the Zuiderdam in Nov. 2003 and rough weather prevented us from calling on St. Martin.

Instead, we docked in St. Thomas a day early --> arriving in the evening.

Lots of people left the ship that night to visit the island.

We were docked there overnight and all the next day.

[MandyGirl]

I guess if St Thomas is really getting bad then cruiseships would start pulling out... just like they did in St Croix. I've taken a land vacation on St Croix (and the following year on St Thomas / St John) but like in any city - either on vacation or where I live - I'm a cautious traveler. I know there are places here locally I wouldn't go to at night (or day!) even if I had someone with me. I would hope cruiseship passengers use common sense in ports just like they would when traveling to any other city.

But I agree - if HAL is swapping Tortola and St Thomas due to safety issues (resulting in shorter time in St Thomas) it would be appreciated by many for the honesty. Would I still take a land vacation in the USVI? You betcha!:)

[cruzingqueen]

anyone have some REAL info re safety in St Thomas after dark? Think this is being overhyped. Where are the statistics? Anyone actually know of anyone who had a problem?

 

Any of you ever been out after dark in LA? New Orleans? Chicago? NYC? Paris? Sure you need to use some common sense and not go wandering back alleys or flashing big wads of money.. but that makes every bit as much sense during the day as well.

 

Get a grip. If you stay after dark and go to a restaurant or bar in St Thomas and have them call you a taxi (which they will gladly do), and you return to the ship you're not anymore likely to have a problem than you would in the cities listed. Get a grip!!

 

We had a wonderful dinner in November after dark in St Thomas and wouldn't have missed it for the world. AND escaped unscathed to tell the story..

 

But hey.. I spend my days working with convicts.. so maybe have a greater tolerance for risk.

 

Well, if one of my coworkers who is a federal agent, carries a gun and has training in defensive tactics, still does not feel comfortable going out on this island after dark where he is familiar with the area and the people....I don't feel comfortable either. I will be there without my weapon since I'm on vacation and will stand out like a sore thumb as a tourist. Just don't want to have any mishaps to ruin a good vacation.

[DNCButler]

Well, it's been a long time since I saw a thread that angered me as much as this one. No you do not get money back because you are shortened by 2 or 4 hours in a port. If you do not get to that port AT ALL, then you are entitled to that portion of your port charges back. I just called 6 couples that I have booked on this ship and advised them of the changes and they were just glad that they were told about it. Does that mean that someone else should feel the same way, no and I don't think I read that anyone was saying that (at least not the people that have been accused of it). And what's with all this elitist crap? I happen to love HAL but that doesn't make me a snob. And if I were to agree with Dakrewser would that make me a bad person too? It just seems to me that some people are just trying to insult other people here just for the fun of it. Is it that you aren't face to face with them so manners go right out the door? And sorry to say this but if certaing people on this thread go to another cruise line then for sure I'm staying with HAL! Flame away.

[SHayesShip]

I was on the "Z" in April/04 and we were told while onboard that we would be switched. The reason given BY THE CAPTAIN in written form the day of boarding was because there were so many ships in port with the original schedule that we would have had to tender to shore. By switching the port days we only had one other ship in port in St. Thomas - which was great!

 

I was inconvenienced because I had a car reserved from Budget and was meeting relatives who were on the Caribbean Princess. Needless to say this did not happen.

 

KAKcruiser - you are correct. Whether it was Tortola or St. Thomas - whichever the second port in order, they must leave earlier to get to Nassau in time.

 

I do wish we had been told earlier.

 

Steve Hayes

 

I was under the impression that HAL switched the days on St. Thomas and Tortola in addition to the time difference. That is why I figured they made the change because there were too many ships in port in St. Thomas on the originally scheduled day. When HAL was originally scheduled to go to St. Thomas first, they needed a very short time to sail to Tortola so they could leave late. When they changed the schedule to arrive in Tortola first and St. Thomas next, the earlier departure time from St. Thomas was probably necessary to arrive at the next port (Nassau) on time.

[Golfgrl1911]

Why is HAL the cruiseline that has to change itineraries? This was my question last Sept. when it was changed for apparently the same reason. It seems that HAL is willing to roll over when it comes to changing itineraries. Are we (HAL customers) not as important as Royal Caribean, Princess, Carnival or any of the other 6-8 ships in port that day? I'm not trying to start anything it just seems that for two years in a row HAL is the line that takes this **** without regards to their customers.

[dakrewser]

Why is HAL the cruiseline that has to change itineraries? This was my question last Sept. when it was changed for apparently the same reason. It seems that HAL is willing to roll over when it comes to changing itineraries. Are we (HAL customers) not as important as Royal Caribean, Princess, Carnival or any of the other 6-8 ships in port that day? I'm not trying to start anything it just seems that for two years in a row HAL is the line that takes this **** without regards to their customers.

 

Half-empty or half-full? Many would appreciate being in port with one or two other ships rather than six or seven...

[dakrewser]

Take a look at this thread. Evidently Celebrity wants to be just like HAL! :rolleyes:

[Ziggy7]

Just a little FYI, we were on the Zuiderdam last year when they had to change port days and times. We were told and confirmed by our tour guide, that the St. Thomas and Tortola Port Authorities were concerned as to the number of ships in port on thoses days, and requested the ships change days. By the Zuiderdam changing their schedule (which by the way is posted almost a year in advance) we were in port with alot less ships, and less people on the streets and shops. Our time was shortened in St. Thomas due to the increased mileage we would now be traveling to our next port, as it was farther away. So blame HAL if you want, but I also think the islands are not without blame, the over book too many ships and then make changes to the cruiselines, knowing the ships will still call on these ports because this is where pax want to go. Oh we also never made it to Grand Caymen due to hurricane Charlie, which is why we booked a back to back cruise, was to go there too, but we made the best out of our cruise and it was the most wonderful time ever! :)