GASP .... We're Ready to Give Up Formal

[Beyondthe7Seas]

I'll stop bringing my formal attire when, and if the cruise line no longer supports it. I could care less what anyone else is wearing. I'm not changing my lifestyle for the sake of others. Once you give up you lose.

 

Michael

 

I couldn't agree more!

[piscesgal223]

Hi

 

I did not have a gown but I did have a very nice pair of slacks' date=' dress blouse with a dressy top and shawl. If the Hal went with just gowns and tux on my last cruise (4 nights formal) they would have no more than 25 people in the dinning room. So where do other people eat? I am somewhat over weight I would look more foolish in a gowm than what I wore. I did see one man without a suit and tie. he never came to the other Formal nights. I did see a large family of 18. from elderly to toddler, They were a few tables away. I never heard a shound from the children and there were a lot of them. On fomal night the little boys had a white shirt and tie some had a jacket. Little girls had on nice dresses. Other nights the were dressed as going to church. I think everyone was very nicly dressed on formal and other nights.

AlsoI had late seating and I would watch people leaving the MBR I would say less that 1 0/0 had on gowns and tuxs. I might have invested in a gown but I am not sure how many times I would wear a gown or take a cruise

 

Mary[/quote']

 

I am so over the " You WILL wear a tux or, in the case of women, a gown or be keelhauled!!" mentality of some HAL passengers.

[RuthC]

I am so over the " You WILL wear a tux or, in the case of women, a gown or be keelhauled!!" mentality of some HAL passengers.

Funny, I've never seen anything like that posted. I have seen many, many posters advocate keeping to the HAL dress code, but as we all know, that is quite different.

[PCruzer]

Oh, why not make my first post on CC on a subject that will never be closed nor lack for another point of view?

 

I'd make the observation that what has changed over time is the balance between personal choice and a sense of obligation and courtesy towards others.

 

A sad proportion of people seem more inconsiderate of others in many ways than what I recall when I was younger: they speak on the telephone in a crowded elevator or during meals at the table; they cut-in lines, fail to give up a seat to somebody older or burdened with children or packages, don't hold doors or offer to assist strangers in small ways. Table manners, driving manners, simple things like greeting guests, making introductions, putting the comfort of others before one's own. How many times have we seen an older or smaller person trying to wrestle a bag into an overhead bin on an airplane while able young people sit on their backsides and watch without moving a muscle? Have another person push rudely in front of us at a retail store, or a busy bar? I find an alarming number of members of the public simply rude and selfish, and it cuts across all ages and economic standing.

 

Dress and grooming have very broad standards these days but there is an aspect about how we present ourselves to others that at times speaks to whether or not we care to recognize others, to show we respect them, or wish to make them feel welcomed and at ease. Sloppy dress at the beach or informal venues where the societal norm is "we let it all hang out at this time and place"? Great. Don't want to shave on vacation, or wear the old tattered outfit to lie in the sun ... only a prude would take notice unless the outfit is literally dirty, or indecent. A man or women can carry themselves with any degree of nobility even in rags. It is about attitude.

 

I can hear my mother's voice when we used to be chided about table manners as kids - "It isn't about you, dear, it is about making other people feel comfortable and appreciated." Emily Post used to say manners are about kindness and consideration, so that we can give and receive hospitality to make social situations pleasant, comfortable, gracious, graceful, fun and entertaining. That goes for hot dogs by the pool as much as formal dining. Pass the mustard .... PLEASE. Thank-you. "I'm going for a drink, can I get anybody else anything?".

 

To me the whole debate about dress boils down to being considerate of others. For some guests a formal evening dinner is a particular vacation or cruise event, a chance to dress-up and enjoy a sense of occasion, and well, some formality. I believe it is simply inconsiderate to reduce that ambiance by dressing-down and attending in the same room, especially when it is a designated special evening and other alternatives are available. There isn't much ambiguity about it - the Maitre'D should enforce the formal evening dress code or HAL isn't meeting the fair expectations of guests who are looking forward to the well-advertised ambiance of a more formal experience in the MDR. People who flaunt the rules are just plainly rude and inconsiderate in my opinion.

 

On the other hand HAL leaves some ambiguity in their request for formal evenings with regard to the public spaces other than the MDR. Large numbers of more casual guests can't be expected to scamper between their cabins and the Lido to eat like children banished from the downstairs during an adult dinner party.

 

Personally, if I was directing HAL, on formal evenings I would also designate specific adjacent areas to the MDR and at least one of the principal lounges as also being formal areas after a clearly fixed hour, and spell it out plainly. To the extent of putting velvet ropes across some areas and small signage saying "formal evening guests only". Maybe the promenade deck would be included so the formal crowd could have an exterior venue as well. And strictly enforced. To balance that, they could conversely designate public areas or decks of the ship that would remain resort casual for those who choose not to participate in formal evenings, in the same way as they have made the Lido an alternative venue. Anybody who broke the rules could be thrown over the railing and into the sea where they probably belong. (OK, just kidding).

 

So I suppose I cut two ways - I would make the formal requirement clear and strict; but on the other hand in this day and age it just isn't realistic for a 1400 guest ship to expect all their guests to want to participate in a formal evening. Time for those that want 100% compliance to look for smaller venues, or cruises that are designated as "formal". Can't really see that happening, but ...

 

What I really do miss and recall from my childhood was a time when more people took it upon themselves to feel obliged towards the comfort and enjoyment of others.

 

I have a theory it relates to the great swings of the economy - as we come to end of period of great expansion of prosperity a smaller proportion of people experience anxiety about making the best impression possible on the people they meet. They are economically secure and they just don't care ... good times have floated even the leaky boats among us. When times become harder, then people will once again become more self-conscious and wish to distinguish themselves by showing greater gentility and consideration for others, partly as a matter of self-preservation, but perhaps also because once one learns the reciprocal joys of manners and gentility, they stick for life for their own sake. And I hasten to protest I am not being snobbish - it is all about respect for other people, not how rich or poor, educated or advantaged one may or may not be.

 

Caring about manners and being considerate of others may not mean any more people will want to dress-up, they may embrace a casual lifestyle, but it will mean they might take the time to think about when and where it is appropriate to do just as they themselves please, and when they should accommodate the wishes of others.

 

Is it no small surprise that the crew members who come from financially disadvantaged countries are almost universally at pains to appear polite and accomodating?

 

Whew. Forgive me for rambling. Rudeness gets my dander up! :cool:

Thank you for posting this. My thoughts exactly!

[piscesgal223]

No, people haven't actually said "Only wear a tux or a gown on formal night OR ELSE" but reading the(many) dress code threads,you'd be forgiven for thinking this is the case.:(

[SAN415]

The nest cruise my Husband and I are going on we are not bringing formal wear. As I have said in other posts this is a first for me. I am fine with people either dressing in formal wear or not. I can not imagine feeling like I should dictate to others what is formal. That said, I do not think any short cocktail dress is formal, I think for woman that formal is a long dress or fancy long skirt, and dressy top. I normally bring a long floor length black fancy taffeta skirt, and a black and white plaid taffeta floor length skirt. With a silk tank top and also a sparkly top, my husband wears a black suite and white shirt and tie, with dress shoes. His suite is either new or like new and fits perfect so he looks nice and formal.

 

When my granddaughter, who was 10 at the time, was with us, her and I designed a long formal and sewed it together. It was a lot of fun, much like proms back in the day.

 

But I do not care what others are wearing. Further since I am so into fashion and clothes in general, I feel that there are different degrees of what people consider formal. What many people consider formal, even many of the people in this thread who are disparaging to what others wear are not in "formal" wear. I don't think its fair for me to impose my dressing standard on others. If people are trying to be more formal on the formal nights good for them. But a dressy dress is not a formal. And dress codes are subject to opinions, thats why there are so many styles of clothing in the dining room and on formal nights. Kinda makes it more interesting?

 

There was some mention about people who do not shower and change prior to going to dinner. I am one of those who do not change. :) I normally wear the some thing all day till I change in to pjs. Right now I have black silk capri pants and a purple tank and a silk printed sleeveless tunic. with my columbia sandals on. I will be walking at the trail I walk at and shopping and will still look nice later tonight for dinner. If I really need to, I will change my top. Maybe due to the fact that I have to wear a uniform at work, I get dressed in nice clothes when ever I am not working. Skirts, dresses and occasionally capri pants. I find shorts to be unflattering on all woman, so I dont even own any. At any rate I look and smell just fine, even in the same clothes all day. And I would add perhaps better than some of those who changed and showered for dinner. Just saying....

[SilverDollarDoll]

The nest cruise my Husband and I are going on we are not bringing formal wear. As I have said in other posts this is a first for me. I am fine with people either dressing in formal wear or not. I can not imagine feeling like I should dictate to others what is formal. That said, I do not think any short cocktail dress is formal, I think for woman that formal is a long dress or fancy long skirt, and dressy top. I normally bring a long floor length black fancy taffeta skirt, and a black and white plaid taffeta floor length skirt. With a silk tank top and also a sparkly top, my husband wears a black suite and white shirt and tie, with dress shoes. His suite is either new or like new and fits perfect so he looks nice and formal.

 

When my granddaughter, who was 10 at the time, was with us, her and I designed a long formal and sewed it together. It was a lot of fun, much like proms back in the day.

 

But I do not care what others are wearing. Further since I am so into fashion and clothes in general, I feel that there are different degrees of what people consider formal. What many people consider formal, even many of the people in this thread who are disparaging to what others wear are not in "formal" wear. I don't think its fair for me to impose my dressing standard on others. If people are trying to be more formal on the formal nights good for them. But a dressy dress is not a formal. And dress codes are subject to opinions, thats why there are so many styles of clothing in the dining room and on formal nights. Kinda makes it more interesting?

 

There was some mention about people who do not shower and change prior to going to dinner. I am one of those who do not change. :) I normally wear the some thing all day till I change in to pjs. Right now I have black silk capri pants and a purple tank and a silk printed sleeveless tunic. with my columbia sandals on. I will be walking at the trail I walk at and shopping and will still look nice later tonight for dinner. If I really need to, I will change my top. Maybe due to the fact that I have to wear a uniform at work, I get dressed in nice clothes when ever I am not working. Skirts, dresses and occasionally capri pants. I find shorts to be unflattering on all woman, so I dont even own any. At any rate I look and smell just fine, even in the same clothes all day. And I would add perhaps better than some of those who changed and showered for dinner. Just saying....

 

I'm sure there are some reading your message wondering if you are "pulling our leg". I'm glad for you to stay so cool, clean, and refreshed all day no matter what you do. I for one work out in the garden (in the sun and heat), I do laundry, wash, dry and iron, I cook, I run errands and believe me, at the end of the day, I look forward to a nice shower/bath and fresh clothing. I especially wonder what you do on port days when you are maybe swimming or touring in hot humid weather. Maybe you only go to Alaska or cold areas. You also must be blessed with good hair, lucky you. I come back sometimes with a very "wilted" hairstyle. Even my daytime outfits look wilted at the end of a touring day. I'm happy for you and recognize that you are one of the few "refreshed" ones. But let me ask you a question...have you ever seen some of the folks coming back from a day in port? They look tired and wrinkled and they might not smell but they certainly look anxious to clean up.

[MMMD]

The last time my husband and I were in a gown and tux, was at our wedding. I don't currently own a gown, and don't plan on buying one.

 

On formal night I wore a black cocktail dress with a Pashmina and didn't feel out of place at all. Although my husband did bring a suit, he rarely wears the jacket, as he is always hot. He wore the jacket into the MDR but took it off when he sat down. Again, didn't feel out of place and felt his comfort was more important.

 

Although I do remember looking around the room, if someone paid me I wouldn't be able to tell you what the other passengers wore.

 

Truthfully, I'm just not interested in the wardrobe of others and am not the formal attire police. If a cruise line has a formal night and states what passengers should wear, yet allows everyone in no matter their attire, so be it.

According to most here, my husband and I are under dressed for formal nights, but I don't think anyone dining near us lost their appetites.;)

 

I'm also not a fan of dividing the MDR into a formal section and a not so formal section. Being considerate of others in my opinion has nothing to do with clothing. Being able to make people feel welcomed and comfortable no matter their attire is what we all should strive for.

 

Happy sailing!

[iancal]

Is someone actually suggesting that there is a direct relationship to an individual's desicision to wear formal clothes and their personal hygene habits.

 

Clearly, there are some who want to imply that those who do not wear formal clothes on the formal evenings wear dirty, soiled, and ripped clothing.

 

Is the straw man being changing to include lack of personal hygene as well?? I think a reasonable person would shake their head in wonderment about this one.

 

Perhaps instead of dining in the Lido, those of us who prefer to wear casual clothes on formal evenings should be seated outside on the deck, downwind from the exceptionally long noses of those few who seem to mysteriously arrive at such conclusions.

[piscesgal223]

Is someone actually suggesting that there is a direct relationship to an individual's desicision to wear formal clothes and their personal hygene habits.

 

Clearly, there are some who want to imply that those who do not wear formal clothes on the formal evenings wear dirty, soiled, and ripped clothing.

 

Is the straw man being changing to include lack of personal hygene as well?? I think a reasonable person would shake their head in wonderment about this one.

 

Perhaps instead of dining in the Lido, those of us who prefer to wear casual clothes on formal evenings should be seated outside on the deck, downwind from the exceptionally long noses of those few who seem to mysteriously arrive at such conclusions.

 

I agree with that and it goes back to what I have said before: anything *less* than tux and gowns is "sloppy" and "slovenly" for some HAL pax. Umm yeah.NO. Wear what you feel comfortable with as long as it's dressy.

 

 

And no,jeans are not formal, but as I have said a zillion times:I can't wear an evening gown(for a visual think:10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag and you'd be close.:D ) Dressy tops and skirts have to suffice for *some* of us.

[Miss Independence]

This question of dress in the MDR not only differs form age group to age group but also from nationality to nationality.

My husband and I (BRITS) are fairly new to cruising and one of the things which originally put me off was having to dress for dinner. I’m over weight, could do with a shedload of botox,and the wrong side of 60 so I am fighting a loosing battle before I start.

Now don’t get me wrong, I like to look nice but “ formal “wear is a whole new ball game.

For men - the Americans call them Tuxedos – we call them dress suits – ie, a black suit with satin lapels a black bow tie and white dress shirt. Cummerbunds have, I think been consigned to 1970’s trash along with 70’s flower power.

As for the ladies – it should be long, either a ball gown, not the most comfortable garment to wear whilst sitting at the dinner table, or at least a long skirt and dressy top.

Although I really did not want to have to dress up for dinner I thought that in respect for our fellow guests, if we wanted to enjoy the ambiance of formal nights then dress up we should. If we were too tired or too lazy, there are other options.

Our first two cruises were with Royal Caribbean in the Mediterranean, possibly a 70 : 30 mix of Brits and Americans and we were very surprised ( but pleased) that the dress code was mostly adhered to. Most men wore black dress suits or even white dinner jackets with bow ties and the ladies wore long – not ball gowns but long slinky dresses – very comfortable to wear and looking gracious. Yes, there was the odd man in a lounge suit but often partnered with a pristine white shirt and silk tie to elevate it from office attire.

Fine, no embarrassment, every one feeling happy in whatever they were wearing.

 

Then we come to the Holland and America’s Eurodam where the food was much fancier and fine dining was the name of the game most evenings. However. the majority of American guests, on formal nights, wore a lounge suit with tie and some, only a long sleeved shirt and tie with slacks. Now there is absolutely nothing wrong with that except it is NOT formal attire and never will be.

Due to my age I guess I hate the dummying down of standards generally in life and would like to uphold the better traditions of social etiquette although it’s days are certainly numbered. Dressing down will become the norm, ripped and torn jeans, tatty shorts and t shirts will soon be accepted dress in the MDR but what will that mean? The MDR becomes just another Lido with waiters instead of self service. Management will decide that waiters are no longer necessary as people just want food ,any old food, service is not important and then we end up with the status quo – the lowest possible denominator.

So.,as much as I would rather not dress up, I feel a shower and a change of clothes should be mandatory before joining others for a meal, that would at least be respectful,so I might as well put on something pretty and elegant. Not too much to ask surely?

Respect for others is the bottom line and once formal nights are abolished for ever, which they will be, we will have lost something precious; self respect and respect for our fellow guests.

A shame but, it is on the cards already.

JJ

[RuthC]

I agree with that and it goes back to what I have said before: anything *less* than tux and gowns is "sloppy" and "slovenly" for some HAL pax. Umm yeah.NO. Wear what you feel comfortable with as long as it's dressy.

 

 

And no,jeans are not formal, but as I have said a zillion times:I can't wear an evening gown(for a visual think:10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag and you'd be close.:D ) Dressy tops and skirts have to suffice for *some* of us.

My, my my. You do persist in misreading posts, then replying as if you were reading correctly. :rolleyes: Nowhere does HAL's dress code define "formal" as tux and ball gown. Nowhere.

If you are wearing a dressy top and skirt you are probably meeting HAL's code.

[piscesgal223]

The dress code threads-and what defines "Formal" gets tiresome.I'll just leave it at that.

[GeriatricNurse]

My, my my. You do persist in misreading posts, then replying as if you were reading correctly. :rolleyes: Nowhere does HAL's dress code define "formal" as tux and ball gown. Nowhere.

If you are wearing a dressy top and skirt you are probably meeting HAL's code.

 

 

Don't you mean HAL's (suggested) code? ;)

[piscesgal223]

Yes, it's * suggested*. I dress up the best I know how. I guarantee you, if they went gun-to-your-head black tie on formal nights, about the only thing you'd hear onboard HAL ships is the sound of crickets chirping.[/sarcasm]

[Countrygent]

I wasn't meaning "black tie or formal gown" or nothing. I meant within the dress code for formal nights, which is already fairly broad - a dark suit for men, or a nice cocktail/dinner dress for women, or dressy pants/top with a bit of sparkle or flair, a nice dressy cardigan or whatever (my knowledge of women's clothing is pretty limited) and I think for kids a collared shirt and tie with or without a sweater or sportjacket is fine - kids look great just in a shirt and tie as far as I am concerned.

 

I meant folks who ignore the dress code completely and wear something far more casual into a formal event - like just a golf shirt and dockers.

 

Maybe the numbers have shrunk to the extent on formal nights only one level of the MDR should be assigned for formal dinners ... but I respect the desire of some to have a nice, dressy event that rises above the "anything goes" ethos. Without cramping anybody else's choices to too great a degree. For heaven's sakes the same food is available elsewhere on the ship, Lido or cabin for a change of pace. Or make Cannaletto or the Pinnacle the destination on formal nights?

 

Doesn't seem the formal-loving crowd are asking a whole lot to have a few nights set aside to put on the Ritz. :)

[Opinions]

For heaven's sakes the same food is available elsewhere on the ship, Lido or cabin for a change of pace. Or make Cannaletto or the Pinnacle the destination on formal nights?

 

Doesn't seem the formal-loving crowd are asking a whole lot to have a few nights set aside to put on the Ritz. :)

 

The "same food" is not avalable in the Lido...Dinner in my very small inside cabin does not appeal to me...I have read often on this board that the Pinnacle on formal nights is formal...(I don't know as I have never eaten there.)

 

On formal nights I am happy to dine in the Lido and sometimes do...However many of the "formal-loving crowd" insist that I must change to the "suggested " attire for formal nights if I dare to venture in any of the other public rooms...Yes, at times, I feel the "formal-loving crowd" is asking a lot.

[piscesgal223]

There are a lot of formal loving people who need to lose the "country club" attitude.

[tip]

there are a lot of formal loving people who need to lose the "country club" attitude.

 

:d:d:d

[babyher]

There are a lot of formal loving people who need to lose the "country club" attitude.

 

 

My sister and several friends of mine worked at our local country club when they were in school.

 

Some of the "Country Club" set aren't exactly the cream of the crop of society