Passports -- it is really necessary?

[chelspie]

if close looped, no. We cruised for the first time as a family of four, so I opted for the passport cards which are considerably cheaper, mostly just for the convenience of having a small card vs. a birth certificate. I was glad I did because as it turned out, since I am adopted and my birth certificate is stamped "delayed" (because my name was changed and the original records sealed), I had to provide extra paperwork for my card processing. It was a bit stressful, and had that happened while returning home (I mean - who knows? I wasn't expecting it), it would have been more so. The passport card was a much more feasible option since there were four of us, and we didn't have other travel plans in the next ten years outside of that closed loop. (I figure in a few years, if my now-teens want to travel outside of it, they can pay for their own passport.)

[Amberle3]

Here's my advice, for whatever it's worth:

 

A passport is the ONLY internationally recognized piece of ID that proves your citizenship. A passport card will work for North America. A birth certificate or a driver's license does not prove your citizenship, only where you were orginally born or your residence. Neither of them actually proves that you are a US citizen and entitled to re-enter the US, or receive help from a US consulate should a problem arise while you're out of the country.

 

A US passport is $135 and is good for 10 years. That's $13.50 a year. It comes out to $1.13 a month. That's less than the price of a cup of coffee a month to have the best form of travel ID you can get.

[sparks1093]

Get back on board at least one hour before departure and you'll never miss a ship, right?

 

Royal Caribbean strands 145 passengers in San Juan when Irene forces early departure

 

Of course San Juan is a US territory so those without a passport could easily fly home (flying on to meet the ship at the next port, now that would be a problem).

 

Here's my advice, for whatever it's worth:

 

A passport is the ONLY internationally recognized piece of ID that proves your citizenship. A passport card will work for North America. A birth certificate or a driver's license does not prove your citizenship, only where you were orginally born or your residence. Neither of them actually proves that you are a US citizen and entitled to re-enter the US, or receive help from a US consulate should a problem arise while you're out of the country.

 

A US passport is $135 and is good for 10 years. That's $13.50 a year. It comes out to $1.13 a month. That's less than the price of a cup of coffee a month to have the best form of travel ID you can get.

 

Birth certificates absolutely establish US citizenship and the photo ID establishes who you are- which is what the passport does (the US confers citizenship on anyone that is born here, regardless of the citizenship of their parents). These are the documents that the government says they will accept from travelers on closed loop cruises.

 

And you can't spread the cost of the passport over 10 years, it's payable up front. For my family it would have been over $800 and three of the passports would have only been valid for 5 years. We could have gotten passports but didn't because we didn't need to.

[calliopecruiser]

Birth certificates absolutely establish US citizenship and the photo ID establishes who you are- which is what the passport does (the US confers citizenship on anyone that is born here, regardless of the citizenship of their parents).

 

Unless you were born in the US but you've given up your citizenship ;)

[njhorseman]

Here's my advice, for whatever it's worth:

 

A passport is the ONLY internationally recognized piece of ID that proves your citizenship. A passport card will work for North America. A birth certificate or a driver's license does not prove your citizenship, only where you were orginally born or your residence. Neither of them actually proves that you are a US citizen and entitled to re-enter the US, or receive help from a US consulate should a problem arise while you're out of the country.

 

A US passport is $135 and is good for 10 years. That's $13.50 a year. It comes out to $1.13 a month. That's less than the price of a cup of coffee a month to have the best form of travel ID you can get.

 

That's not true. Your birth certificate and drivers license (or other government ID) are exactly what you present when you apply for a passport (http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html), so of course they are sufficient proof of citizenship and identity, respectively, and they are exactly what the consulate needs to provide help.

[sparks1093]

Unless you were born in the US but you've given up your citizenship ;)

 

It's doubtful that such a person would be sailing on a closed loop cruise from the same US port. In any event a US birth certificate is still prima facie evidence of US citizenship.

[calliopecruiser]

That's not true. Your birth certificate and drivers license (or other government ID) are exactly what you present when you apply for a passport (http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html), so of course they are sufficient proof of citizenship and identity, respectively, and they are exactly what the consulate needs to provide help.

 

Not really - that's not the entirety of what is needed for a passport.

 

Likewise, I can't imagine why sparks thinks it's doubtful that someone who's given up their US citizenship wouldn't want to do a closed loop cruise.......it's not as if only American residents want to cruise the Caribbean for a week.

[Amberle3]

I find it really interesting the difference between US and Canadian passport processes. I've spoken with representatives from DFAIT and the information on a passport being the only piece of ID that proves your citizenship came directly from them.

 

It's also interesting that there's so much less information required on a US passport application form. Here - in addition to ID - you have to have a guarantor that has known you personally for at least years sign that the information on the form is correct and also sign the backs of the photos to swear that they are a likenes of you, and you have to provide you address(es) for the last 2 years, occupation(s) for the last 2 years and list 2 personal references who are neither family nor your guarantor who may be contacted to confirm your idenity. I don't see any of that in the US passport application.

[BalekFekete]

My family and I are sailing in late June, and we ran into the same circumstance as the OP - while I have a passport due to frequent int'l business travel, the rest of the family (DW, DS (17), DD (14) and DS (11)) do not as we've never traveled outside the country. With our eldest starting college next year and then follow-ons with the other siblings, we don't figure we'll be doing a lot of int'l travel in the next decade...

 

...so we're going to roll the dice with the DLs, birth certs, and marriage license. Bit of gambling I suppose...but shelling out over $500 for something that could literally be used once before expiring is tough to swallow.

[sparks1093]

Not really - that's not the entirety of what is needed for a passport.

 

Likewise, I can't imagine why sparks thinks it's doubtful that someone who's given up their US citizenship wouldn't want to do a closed loop cruise.......it's not as if only American residents want to cruise the Caribbean for a week.

 

I say it's doubtful because I believe someone that renounces citizenship is probably not in a hurry to come back to the country they've left. But in order to renounce a US citizen has to be in a foreign country (among other things), so they have to come back to the US in order to go on a closed loop cruise. In order to come back to the States (if they are allowed in at all, not sure what restrictions they face) then they will need a passport from a different country and that is the document they would travel on the cruise with.

 

And I would think that someone that renounced their citizenship would be in half a dozen government databases as no longer being US citizens.

[calliopecruiser]

I say it's doubtful because I believe someone that renounces citizenship is probably not in a hurry to come back to the country they've left. But in order to renounce a US citizen has to be in a foreign country (among other things), so they have to come back to the US in order to go on a closed loop cruise. In order to come back to the States (if they are allowed in at all, not sure what restrictions they face) then they will need a passport from a different country and that is the document they would travel on the cruise with.

 

And I would think that someone that renounced their citizenship would be in half a dozen government databases as no longer being US citizens.

 

Renouncing your citizenship is not the same as having your citizenship revoked. Having your citizenship revoked involves a bunch of legal problems - yes, they'd be in a lot of databases for accused or proven crimes. However, voluntarily giving up your US citizenship is usually done for either philosophical or financial reasons, but usually financial - since the IRS insists on taxing all income ever made by any citizen anywhere in the world. So someone who's moved and gotten citizenship in another country, even 20 years ago, still has to pay US income tax on everything he/she earns every year. I have recently met 2 Canadians who are giving up their dual citizenship and renouncing their US citizenship for just that reason.

 

I can't imagine why you'd think that my friend, who moved here with his wife and got married a dozen years ago, would be opposed to traveling to Florida to take up a Caribbean cruise.

[lady_cruiser]

Expense?? I am in Canada and a passport does cost money but not much compared to the cruise itself. If your budget is that tight, I am not sure why you are going on the cruise at all.

 

Frankly, it is only America citizen who even ponder whether to get a passport or not to travel.

 

Here we go again. Someone who thinks they are holier than thou giving budget advice to someone who hasn't asked for it.

[sparks1093]

Renouncing your citizenship is not the same as having your citizenship revoked. Having your citizenship revoked involves a bunch of legal problems - yes, they'd be in a lot of databases for accused or proven crimes. However, voluntarily giving up your US citizenship is usually done for either philosophical or financial reasons, but usually financial - since the IRS insists on taxing all income ever made by any citizen anywhere in the world. So someone who's moved and gotten citizenship in another country, even 20 years ago, still has to pay US income tax on everything he/she earns every year. I have recently met 2 Canadians who are giving up their dual citizenship and renouncing their US citizenship for just that reason.

 

I can't imagine why you'd think that my friend, who moved here with his wife and got married a dozen years ago, would be opposed to traveling to Florida to take up a Caribbean cruise.

 

If your friend comes to the US to take a cruise then he does so as a Canadian citizen, if he has in fact renounced his US citizenship. To get into the US to get to the cruise he must present a passport and if he has renounced his US citizenship then it would have to be a Canadian passport because when he renounced his US citizenship he had to surrender his US passport. He could not show up at the port and show his US birth certificate to establish US citizenship because even someone who has renounced their citizenship voluntarily and done nothing wrong would still be in the databases as having renounced their citizenship and the cruise lines provide the manifest to DHS before the cruise departs.

 

(And I apologize if anything that I've said has upset you, I always figured if someone renounced their US citizenship they wouldn't want to have anything to do with the US ever again.)

[njhorseman]

Not really - that's not the entirety of what is needed for a passport.

Likewise, I can't imagine why sparks thinks it's doubtful that someone who's given up their US citizenship wouldn't want to do a closed loop cruise.......it's not as if only American residents want to cruise the Caribbean for a week.

 

So you're saying that the United States Department of State, which is the US government department that issues passports does not know what it's own requirements for issuing a passport are?

 

And you're saying that I, and millions of other US citizens who have passports had to present something other than our birth certificates (or equivalent) and IDs with our applications to obtain our passports?

 

Please tell me what other documents you think I had to submit (other than a photograph and a check for the fee)...and please cite the source of your information.

[Amberle3]

I say it's doubtful because I believe someone that renounces citizenship is probably not in a hurry to come back to the country they've left. But in order to renounce a US citizen has to be in a foreign country (among other things), so they have to come back to the US in order to go on a closed loop cruise. In order to come back to the States (if they are allowed in at all, not sure what restrictions they face) then they will need a passport from a different country and that is the document they would travel on the cruise with.

 

And I would think that someone that renounced their citizenship would be in half a dozen government databases as no longer being US citizens.

 

I'm in Canada, but here's the story of my step-dad: Decades ago he had to go to The Netherlands to deal with a bunch of things related to his illness and subsequent death of his father. Some of those things he could not do as a Canadian citizen, he could only do as a Dutch citizen. He was gong to have to be there for quite a while, and his marriage here had recently ended so he thought he'd just make the move to the Netherlands. This required that he renounce his Canadian citizenship because The Netherlands does not allow dual citizenship. Fast forward 15 years and he's back in Canada, as a permanent resident because he'd previously renounced his citizenship. So there you have someone who was a Canadian citizen, no longer is, travels on a Dutch passport but lives and works in Canada. He's since managed to have his citizenship reinstated, which makes things much easier. And it's not all that uncommon for people to apply to get their citizenship reinstated.

 

But someone from the US in similar circumstances could show up at the port with a US birth certificate and a US driver's license, and not be a US citizen.

[donaldsc]

We never sail with a passport (Caribbean closed loops!)....your BC and DL will be just fine. In the event of some emergency, you WILL get home...no fear. It may be a bit of a hassle, but none of those countries will allow you to stay...so home you will go.

 

If you choose not to have a passport and do have an emergency, the embassy people should take at least 2 - 3 weeks before they get around to even thinking about your problem. You made the choice - you should suffer the severe consequences.

 

DON

[sparks1093]

But someone from the US in similar circumstances could show up at the port with a US birth certificate and a US driver's license, and not be a US citizen.

 

Possible, but then the government databases would show they are not a US citizen when the cruise line submitted the passenger manifest to DHS (and I won't even begin to talk about how they are going to get a driver's license or other form of government ID when they aren't a resident of a state).

[njhorseman]

I'm in Canada, but here's the story of my step-dad: Decades ago he had to go to The Netherlands to deal with a bunch of things related to his illness and subsequent death of his father. Some of those things he could not do as a Canadian citizen, he could only do as a Dutch citizen. He was gong to have to be there for quite a while, and his marriage here had recently ended so he thought he'd just make the move to the Netherlands. This required that he renounce his Canadian citizenship because The Netherlands does not allow dual citizenship. Fast forward 15 years and he's back in Canada, as a permanent resident because he'd previously renounced his citizenship. So there you have someone who was a Canadian citizen, no longer is, travels on a Dutch passport but lives and works in Canada. He's since managed to have his citizenship reinstated, which makes things much easier. And it's not all that uncommon for people to apply to get their citizenship reinstated.

 

But someone from the US in similar circumstances could show up at the port with a US birth certificate and a US driver's license, and not be a US citizen.

 

But the person who tries to do that may very well be discovered when the passenger manifest is submitted to the Department of Homeland Security for clearance prior to the ship leaving port.

 

It's also probably unlikely a person in that circumstance would try to cruise using their birth certificate. They would likely use their US "green card" (Permanent Resident ID Card) and the passport from the country of which they are currently a citizen.

[sparks1093]

If you choose not to have a passport and do have an emergency, the embassy people should take at least 2 - 3 weeks before they get around to even thinking about your problem. You made the choice - you should suffer the severe consequences.

 

DON

 

In that case just stay on the ship and finish the cruise, you'll get home quicker :)(supposing of course that your emergency isn't that you missed the ship;)). And why oh why Don must there be severe consequences for doing something that is perfectly legal:confused:?

[calliopecruiser]

So you're saying that the United States Department of State, which is the US government department that issues passports does not know what it's own requirements for issuing a passport are?

 

And you're saying that I, and millions of other US citizens who have passports had to present something other than our birth certificates (or equivalent) and IDs with our applications to obtain our passports?

 

Please tell me what other documents you think I had to submit (other than a photograph and a check for the fee)...and please cite the source of your information.

 

I didn't say you needed other documents - though we both know you do need the signed form and the photo. You also need your SSN, which is checked (and the State Department has the authority to ask for any other documentation they see fit).

 

Really, it's not hard for anyone to look up the requirements on the internet. Don't need to be a US citizen.

[njhorseman]

I didn't say you needed other documents - though we both know you do need the signed form and the photo. You also need your SSN, which is checked (and the State Department has the authority to ask for any other documentation they see fit).

 

Really, it's not hard for anyone to look up the requirements on the internet. Don't need to be a US citizen.

 

 

I know where to look up the requirements...I was was the one who provided the link to the State Department's web page in my earlier post. Please tell me where it says you have to physically present the SS card when you turn in your application. You have to fill in your SSN on the application. The requirements are clearly spelled out on State's web site.

 

Yes, in theory they can ask for other documentation, but in practice no one who has clearly satisfactory primary evidence of citizenship (birth certificate meeting the State Department's requirements or specfied acceptable alternatives) and identity (drivers license or other government-issued photo ID) is asked for anything additional.

[calliopecruiser]

Please tell me where it says you have to physically present the SS card when you turn in your application.

 

Why? I never claimed they asked for it; I know they don't.

 

Why are you trying to prolong this argument? All I claimed was that the State Department needed more from someone than his/her birth certificate and drivers' license, and you've agreed. What else do you want?

 

Don't look for me to agree that a birth certificate is enough to globally establish US citizenship. And we are talking about the possibility of needing *globally* accepted identification. Taking a passport isn't necessary in most cases, but it's insurance in case things don't go as planned, no different than having health insurance.

[BruceMuzz]

Of course San Juan is a US territory so those without a passport could easily fly home (flying on to meet the ship at the next port, now that would be a problem).

 

 

 

Birth certificates absolutely establish US citizenship and the photo ID establishes who you are- which is what the passport does (the US confers citizenship on anyone that is born here, regardless of the citizenship of their parents). These are the documents that the government says they will accept from travelers on closed loop cruises.

 

And you can't spread the cost of the passport over 10 years, it's payable up front. For my family it would have been over $800 and three of the passports would have only been valid for 5 years. We could have gotten passports but didn't because we didn't need to.

 

Give me $25 and a ride to Kinkos and I can produce a birth certificate - in one hour - that looks better than the real one you have, including a raised seal.

Anybody can get a US Drivers License. Take the fake birth certificate to the local State Agency, take a driving and written tests that any moron can pass, pay the $20 fee and have them mail it to a friends home address.

In a sense you are right. I can produce a fake birth certificate in one hour and absolutely establish anyone in the world as a US Citizen.

[njhorseman]

Why? I never claimed they asked for it; I know they don't.

 

Why are you trying to prolong this argument? All I claimed was that the State Department needed more from someone than his/her birth certificate and drivers' license, and you've agreed. What else do you want?

 

Don't look for me to agree that a birth certificate is enough to globally establish US citizenship. And we are talking about the possibility of needing *globally* accepted identification. Taking a passport isn't necessary in most cases, but it's insurance in case things don't go as planned, no different than having health insurance.

 

No I haven't..that's why the argument is being prolonged. The only documentation needed to be submitted with your application is your BC and ID.

 

My original statement, which is what you continue to twist and misinterpret was "Your birth certificate and drivers license (or other government ID) are exactly what you present when you apply for a passport." It's 100% true and accurate, and it's what you chose to argue about.

 

You don't seem to understand the difference between writing something on the application and presenting a supporting document. All I'm talking about is the supporting documentation that is submitted with the application.

 

And the discussion was never about what is "globally accepted documentation". The thread is about what US citizens need to take a closed loop cruise, and secondarily, what type of documentation they would need to get a passport if they ended up missing their ship and needed to take an international airline flight.

[pdmlynek]

I believe that having a passport makes sense. It just makes things easier. With a passport there is never an issue if it is a sufficient form of an ID, be it internationally or domestically. It simplifies international travel even if it is not required, it simplifies opening a bank account, it simplifies paperwork when you get a new job, etc.

 

In any case, I think that unless a person is indigent, that an average person in today's world should have a passport. If a person has to wait until an opportunity presents itself to travel internationally, than that person will be able to go only on trips that are planned well in advance, because it takes time to get a passport. Having a passport before needing to travel internationally gives one the opportunity to say yes if the boyfriend/girlfriend/friend/co-worker/client/etc. asks one if one can meet them next weekend in Montreal/Cancun/Paris/Nassau/etc. for a romantic get together/dinner/presentation/sales pitch/etc.

 

Just get the passport.