Who saw Dispatches on C4 tonight?

[leeselee]

I watched this tonight and can't quite work out how I feel

 

It all looked genuine but I still like to believe that RC would not allow what looked like slave labour to continue under their noses

 

I wondered what other viewers thought

[NorbertsNiece]

Whilst I am aware of this type of programme being one-sided it did bring home the importance of cash in hand for the staff.... from a previous discussion here about tipping bar staff and the 15% gratuity already being included and whether the server does actually get that.

 

I have no choice but to prepay gratuities as I prefer to dine My Time but I will be sure to pop some cash in hand as well.

 

The conditions of their employment is altogether another matter. I am aware that many of the crew multi task. I honestly believe it would be extremely difficult for the guest facing staff to maintain the consistent quality and level of service they do if their living conditions were as harsh as portrayed.

[beachnative]

Did not see it. Please summarize.

[pennys mum]

I watched too. It was quite shocking if true.

[retird]

please summarize the program, I did not see it.

[leeselee]

It was very one sided

 

I am sure staff would not stay year afer year if all they reported was true for all cases

 

We also prepay tips for MTD and give extra to whomever we choose

 

That said, I have seen au pairs in London being treated more ike slaves than child carers, with longer hours and less pay

[leeselee]

Did not see it. Please summarize.

 

A UK film crew went undercover as guest and assistant waiter on Celebrity Eclipse. they reported on the terrible pay and conditions

 

It was only on for half an hour, but it was very unpleasant viewing

[Able Seaman H]

Didn't see this thread when I started another covering the same topic.

 

An interesting program on TV this evening "exposing" sister company Celebrity for supposed employment issues. Mainly how little staff were supposedly paid.

 

They also mentioned fees paid by staff to cover things like air fare to and from their home country to the ship (because every other employer in the world pays people to travel halfway around the world to come and work for them), medical costs (my ENG1 medical recently cost me around $150 and I arranged it myself directly with the doctor), and so on.

 

How very timely that Chief Organ grinder Michael Bayley has taken over the Celebrity forum to answer questions I haven't actually seen a response thus far but hey, at least it shut the down ;)

 

We all know the crack, minimal basic wage and a strong emphasis on tips, which the program seemed to glass over. Of 5 weeks employment (bearing in mind most contracts are for 9 months or so) there only seemed to be 2 weeks worth included in the wage tally. I also notice that whilst numbers were in US dollars they slipped in one amount in £ sterling to make it look smaller £1 UK = $1.6 Sneaky sods !!

 

The focus seemed to be on UK minimum wage and how this bloke with all of 5 weeks on the job failed to achieve that level of pay. I wonder what the average wage these days is in Manilla, Bangalore or a small village in Eastern Europe. A good deal lower than our undercover reporter earned. Throw in food & board, medical care and a safe working environment and all of a sudden you can see why cruise staff come back for multiple contracts. A few years hard graft and they can effectively retire back home. I've got to do 45 years !!

 

Tipping is often covered on this forum and it is good to see that there are very few who under tip, the vast majority over tip.

 

But that wouldn't make very good TV would it :)

 

Henry

[pennys mum]

Did not see it. Please summarize.

 

It was filmed on the Celebrity Eclipse, an undercover reporter got a job via an agency. He was promised circa $1000 per month. No contract before boarding, when contract was given on board it was for $700.

He was told agency made a mistake and if not happy he had to make his own way home from next port. At end of 5 weeks he realised that salary was mainly made up from prepaid tips and line would make up any shortfall. No mention made of cash tips. He was a waiter and worked long hours..breakfast, lunch and dinner sittings. No days off for length of contract. Training to be done in own time.

They also had a reporter on as a passenger speaking to room stewards who said they had to pay "helpers" on change over days as they could not get rooms ready by themselves.

A woman who said she had worked for RCI daid she had to pay helper and it cost her $70- 100 each time.

Others on celebrity claimed they had paid agencies in order to get jobs on board this was $3000 or $3500.This was for flights, work permits, visa and medical certificates. These people were from India.

At end of day the waiter claimed to have been paid about £2.50per hour which is much less than british minimum wage.

[leeselee]

Didn't see this thread when I started another covering the same topic.

 

An interesting program on TV this evening "exposing" sister company Celebrity for supposed employment issues. Mainly how little staff were supposedly paid.

 

They also mentioned fees paid by staff to cover things like air fare to and from their home country to the ship (because every other employer in the world pays people to travel halfway around the world to come and work for them), medical costs (my ENG1 medical recently cost me around $150 and I arranged it myself directly with the doctor), and so on.

 

How very timely that Chief Organ grinder Michael Bayley has taken over the Celebrity forum to answer questions I haven't actually seen a response thus far but hey, at least it shut the down ;)

 

We all know the crack, minimal basic wage and a strong emphasis on tips, which the program seemed to glass over. Of 5 weeks employment (bearing in mind most contracts are for 9 months or so) there only seemed to be 2 weeks worth included in the wage tally. I also notice that whilst numbers were in US dollars they slipped in one amount in £ sterling to make it look smaller £1 UK = $1.6 Sneaky sods !!

 

The focus seemed to be on UK minimum wage and how this bloke with all of 5 weeks on the job failed to achieve that level of pay. I wonder what the average wage these days is in Manilla, Bangalore or a small village in Eastern Europe. A good deal lower than our undercover reporter earned. Throw in food & board, medical care and a safe working environment and all of a sudden you can see why cruise staff come back for multiple contracts. A few years hard graft and they can effectively retire back home. I've got to do 45 years !!

 

Tipping is often covered on this forum and it is good to see that there are very few who under tip, the vast majority over tip.

 

But that wouldn't make very good TV would it :)

 

Henry

 

 

well said, good point raised about food and board

[Darkwolfe]

Kinda sounds like one of those "Big evil corporation exposes" that comes around every so often. They never ever cover all of the details. They just load up whatever they can "sell" for ratings.

[pennys mum]

Kinda sounds like one of those "Big evil corporation exposes" that comes around every so often. They never ever cover all of the details. They just load up whatever they can "sell" for ratings.

 

Exactly no plus points just all bad points.

[orville99]

Certaqinly something to think about while wearing your $200 Air Jordans or $300 designer jeans that cost about $3 to make in countries where even "good" wages have a zero in front of the decimal point/hour, or while prattling on your smart phone that's made in conditions where the company had to install nets on the outside of their manufacturing plants so employees wouldn't kill themselves by jumping:rolleyes:

[pennys mum]

This now up on website

 

A leading cruise operator launches an investigation after secret filming by Channel 4 Dispatches reveals working conditions that would be illegal in the UK.

 

Many of the lowest ranked workers who chose to work on cruise ships come from poor countries where their wages can support whole families.

 

Channel 4 Dispatches' undercover reporter spent five weeks working aboard the Celebrity Eclipse - operated by Celebrity Cruises - to investigate if these workers are being treated fairly.

 

The investigation discovered:

• Staff earning less than half the UK national minimum wage - including some lower tier cruise workers on just over $600 per month with no tips.

•Staff claiming to work long hours, seven days a week for months on end without rest days.

•Some staff claiming to have paid significant fees to outside recruitment agencies to obtain jobs on board the ship.

•Some staff claiming to have to pay colleagues out of their own pocket to help complete huge workloads. Some ex-staff of Royal Caribbean cruises allege that it is a deliberate policy to force workers to subsidise the running costs.

• Experts accuse the cruise industry of using ‘flag of convenience' maritime laws to register ships in countries where there are lessstringent employment laws.

• Employment contract offered to staff on less favourable pay terms than had been originally promised by a recruitment agency days into a cruise

 

 

 

A stately cruise around glamorous foreign cities and breath-taking scenery, waited upon night and day is a popular fantasy which has grown into a $34 billion (£21 billion) holiday industry.

 

Last year alone a record 1.7 million Brits choose a holiday on the ocean waves. But as a maritime lawyer explained, public awareness about the reality of the workers conditions on cruise ships is ‘as close to zero as you can get'.

 

Our undercover reporter worked aboard the Celebrity Eclipse while it took in various destinations throughout Western Europe including the picturesque Norwegian Fjords.

 

For guests the luxury cruise liner has a five star experience offering 10 restaurants, 9 bars, a casino, pool, theatre, volleyball and more.

 

Our reporter's role involved serving meals morning, noon and night. His working day spanned more than 16 hours.

 

Over the five weeks aboard the Celebrity Eclipse his earnings work out at £2.24 an hour, less than half the UK national minimum wage.

 

Three days after the ship had left port, he received an employment contract to sign with less favourable pay conditions then had been promised to him by a British recruitment agency. If he didn't like the contract and leaves, he would have had to pay his own way home from the next port - in Iceland.

 

In addition he ran up over £570 in costs just to get his job including paying for his uniform, a compulsory medical and a visa.

 

 

 

Flags of convenience

 

So how did our undercover reporter and some of his crewmates make far less than they would if they worked in the UK?

 

That's because the Celebrity Eclipse's American owners are, in law, based in Africa and the ship itself flies the flag of Malta. British rules and regulations do not apply.

 

This policy - flying a flag of convenience - is criticized for lowering employment standards.

 

Ross Klein, sociologist and cruise expert, says: "A flag of convenience is taking a ship and registering it in a country which is different than the beneficial ownership of the ship itself... The reason for the foreign registry is that they're governed then by the laws of the country where they're registered."

 

"The product is able to be given to you cheaper because the workers aren't being paid and the company isn't required to perform under certain regulations and laws. The companies are able to escape the costs that any land based provider of a vacation can't escape," he adds.

 

 

 

Staff in debt to get their jobs

 

Our undercover reporter spoke to a number of staff who started the cruise heavily in debt just to get their jobs.

 

One waiter claimed to have paid a recruitment agent $3,500 in fees and for a flight, to get a job on the ship. He says he will have to work for 12 months to make back the money.

 

He tells our undercover reporter that his basic salary is just $607 a month - equivalent to less than £1.30 an hour.

 

Another waiter working aboard the Celebrity Eclipse from Indonesia also claimed to have paid $1,500 to an agent in fees and for a flight to get a job onboard.

 

Professor Michael Bloor from Seafarers International Research Centre says: "Placement fees are illegal under existing international regulations....a seafarer will be working on a ship for quite a period of time before he's paid off the debt he's incurred."

 

"In effect it's like bonded labour that they don't feel free to leave the ship no matter what the working conditions, the living conditions and so on," he adds.

 

Celebrity Cruises said in a statement: "Celebrity Cruises prohibits hiring partners and recruiting agencies from collecting fees from employees seeking employment onboard our vessels, except for preapproved costs. Preapproved costs which include a required pre-employment medical examination, costs for a visa and certain travel costs, which is standard in the industry. Any additional costs charged by the hiring partners are forbidden and Celebrity Cruises will take appropriate action against any agency violating these requirements."

 

 

 

Crew members pay others staff just to keep ahead of their work

 

Channel 4 Dispatches has also learned in the cruise industry some of the lowest ranked workers claim they have to pay colleagues. One cleaner on the Celebrity Cruises explains that he has to hire other workers, out of his own pocket, to help stay on top of his work load.

 

Some ex-staff even allege that it is a deliberate policy to force workers to subsidise the running costs.

 

Five hundred current and former employees are trying to take legal action against the Royal Caribbean.Sherine Renford worked for Royal Caribbean as a stateroom attendant until last year told Channel 4 Dispatches: "You're looking at 13 - 14 hours a regular day and 16 for the boarding day". Sherine says that she would spend up to 40% of her own wages hiring other people to help her finish on time.

 

"We just have to hire these guys to help us - and then I'd have to pay him a $120 for the 7 days in the morning session - if he works with me in the night I would pay him $100 for the 7 days," she says.

 

Carlos Llinas, a Maritime Lawyer representing the employees says: "You're given way too much work and instead of the company providing you with the assistants to be able to finish that work - and paying for those assistants - the company's forcing you to pay those assistants.

 

"How one court described it recently - in a case against another cruise line - it is... as if the company was taking their money away from them," he adds.

 

 

 

Response from Celebrity Cruises

 

Celebrity Cruises told Chanel 4 Dispatches they were investigating all of our allegations and would take swift action if they found wrongdoing.They respected international agreements with labour unions which "provide reasonable pay and benefits, including guaranteed monthly pay for tip-earning employees. ... Most receive tips significantly higher than the minimum guarantee each month."

 

"The agreements also contain mandatory overtime pay, free room and board, mandatory rest, medical coverage and sick pay ... along with other benefits."

 

The company added: "While we are disappointed to hear the concerns of your reporter, we don't believe your reporter's concerns these are representative of more than 13,000 satisfied employees who deliver memorable holidays."

 

"Celebrity Cruises denies any claim stating that employees are assigned workloads which require them to hire a personal helper to complete. There have been instances where employees voluntarily pay another employee to assist them with their work; however, this practice is not sanctioned by the company"

 

Celebrity Cruises also told Chanel 4 Dispatches that our reporter should have received his contract on his first day aboard but the delay was caused by a recruiting agency error. His pay was right for the job.

 

 

 

Cruises Undercover: The Truth Below Deck - Channel 4 Dispatches on Monday 1st October 2012 at 8pm

[retird]

Interesting, I did not see the program, however I recently had the opportunity to talk at length with a couple of RCI workers about their jobs. They were very happy and they said that sometimes the hours are long but the monetary returns are well worth it. The elaborated that they are away from home and were happy to work long hours and reap the benefits of the extra cash.

[highlandlassie]

The reporter did show £20 tip he was given.

 

Also saw one staff member smoking in his cabin :eek: he said it was hell to work on the ship.

 

link to the story/show

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/01/cruise-ships-microcosm-global-hierarchy?newsfeed=true

[Able Seaman H]

When we started cruising many moons ago being young and British it was assumed we were crew. In those days the American ships weren't as popular outside the US. As a result we spent a lot of time with the crew and have maintained that relationship throughout our cruises.

 

We are well traveled particularly in Asia where the standard of living and in particular pay is substantially lower than might be expected in the UK. We also started from nothing in business, worked 3 jobs, huge hours and still have our feet firmly on the ground. So we know how it is.

 

I would love to have a 15 slot on the same prime time TV discussing the programme with it's makers. They really are a bunch of shysters. Where do you begin?

 

Employment period - 5 weeks. Given a typical contract will be for 6-9 months 5 weeks is hardly representative. It's a bit like starting a new job that requires a £6 return bus fare each 8 hour day and which pays £6 per hour then quitting after an hour. Out of your £6 pay comes the £6 bus fare, a £6 bus fare to get to the interview and a £10 hair cut to help you get the job. Then claiming "Those robbing B'stards forced me to pay them £16 to work there for an hour".

 

Much of the 5 weeks would be taken up training. The better you get the more you can earn. That my friends is life.

 

The various "alleged" costs relate to one off expenses valid for a period far in excess of the 5 weeks worked. Medical certificates for instance are usually valid for 2 years depending on your role and the ship. As with that bus to work every day you will have to cover your costs from home to the ship but once on board the daily commute is free !

 

Tips - It's hard to work out the exact number of weeks tips were calculated for the 5 week period of employment, but it wasn't 5 weeks. There was a bit of TV slight of hand mixing US $ and GB £ to keep the numbers small.

 

Work spanned a 16 hour period - just think carefully what they are saying here. Work wasn't for 16 hours a day, it spanned 16 hours a day. Now the role of Assistant waiter is one of the hardest on board. Dining room and Buffet restaurant duties are required. Waiters wouldn't necessarily be required to work in the Buffet restaurant. But even so a working day which spans 16 hours is not a 16 hour working day. The lollypop lady who works the pedestrian crossing near us starts work at 8.00am then stops at 9.00am. She starts again at 3.00pm and stops at 4.00pm. Her working day spans 8 hours. How many hours a day would you say she works ?

 

UK minimum wage - Why would you choose the UK when you are from the Philippines or India? Compared to their home countries cruise ship staff generally earn considerably higher than the average or minimum wage - if there is such a thing as a minimum wage. Working conditions on a cruise ship are far higher than those found in their native countries. Try living and working in an Indian factory for 5 weeks, then do the same on the cruise ship. The key differences you will notice are sanitation, food, comfort, hours, employee welfare and a massive pay differential.

 

Cruise ship wages are all found, in other words the workers don't have to pay for accommodation and food out of their wages. This is of massive significance because it means someone can elect to get their head down for a number of years, work hard, save money and build a future for themselves. How different are we here on dry land? Up at 6.30am to catch the 7.30am train then back home at 7.30pm or later if work demands it. Out of your wages you have to find mortgage payments, rail fare, food, car, insurance, heating, lighting, health care, council fees and the real big one a little thing called income tax.

 

Now go away and research income tax for people working at sea. Oh my goodness, the Dispatches TV makers seem to have missed that little point !!!

 

No one is getting duped. Here is crew information relating to Royal Caribbean Ships. It seems pretty up front to me. Crew recruitment information website

 

Henry

[sky0000547]

I watched the programme last night and the wages, tips and working hours of the crew didn't surprise me at all.

 

However what I didn't like was that the agency told the undercover waiter he will earn a basic wage of roughly $1,000/mth but once on the ship and when he received the contract stating he was only getting paid $700 rather than $1,000. When he queried it with Accounts on the ship, Celebrity told him that the agency gave him the wrong information. If he doesn't sign the contract, he will have to disembark at the next port and pay for his own flight home.

[sxphil]

One thing enlightened me was that Celebrity makes up the difference if there tips are low

 

so in theory if

 

A pays the recommended Tip of $5

 

B pays $10

 

C pays £2

 

The company won't top up the tips because he has exceeded the recomended tip of $5 per person

i.e B has subsidded C

 

Makes me think handing cash to staff is better for them

[kimberley]

When we started cruising many moons ago being young and British it was assumed we were crew. In those days the American ships weren't as popular outside the US. As a result we spent a lot of time with the crew and have maintained that relationship throughout our cruises.

 

We are well traveled particularly in Asia where the standard of living and in particular pay is substantially lower than might be expected in the UK. We also started from nothing in business, worked 3 jobs, huge hours and still have our feet firmly on the ground. So we know how it is.

 

I would love to have a 15 slot on the same prime time TV discussing the programme with it's makers. They really are a bunch of shysters. Where do you begin?

 

Employment period - 5 weeks. Given a typical contract will be for 6-9 months 5 weeks is hardly representative. It's a bit like starting a new job that requires a £6 return bus fare each 8 hour day and which pays £6 per hour then quitting after an hour. Out of your £6 pay comes the £6 bus fare, a £6 bus fare to get to the interview and a £10 hair cut to help you get the job. Then claiming "Those robbing B'stards forced me to pay them £16 to work there for an hour".

 

Much of the 5 weeks would be taken up training. The better you get the more you can earn. That my friends is life.

 

The various "alleged" costs relate to one off expenses valid for a period far in excess of the 5 weeks worked. Medical certificates for instance are usually valid for 2 years depending on your role and the ship. As with that bus to work every day you will have to cover your costs from home to the ship but once on board the daily commute is free !

 

Tips - It's hard to work out the exact number of weeks tips were calculated for the 5 week period of employment, but it wasn't 5 weeks. There was a bit of TV slight of hand mixing US $ and GB £ to keep the numbers small.

 

Work spanned a 16 hour period - just think carefully what they are saying here. Work wasn't for 16 hours a day, it spanned 16 hours a day. Now the role of Assistant waiter is one of the hardest on board. Dining room and Buffet restaurant duties are required. Waiters wouldn't necessarily be required to work in the Buffet restaurant. But even so a working day which spans 16 hours is not a 16 hour working day. The lollypop lady who works the pedestrian crossing near us starts work at 8.00am then stops at 9.00am. She starts again at 3.00pm and stops at 4.00pm. Her working day spans 8 hours. How many hours a day would you say she works ?

 

UK minimum wage - Why would you choose the UK when you are from the Philippines or India? Compared to their home countries cruise ship staff generally earn considerably higher than the average or minimum wage - if there is such a thing as a minimum wage. Working conditions on a cruise ship are far higher than those found in their native countries. Try living and working in an Indian factory for 5 weeks, then do the same on the cruise ship. The key differences you will notice are sanitation, food, comfort, hours, employee welfare and a massive pay differential.

 

Cruise ship wages are all found, in other words the workers don't have to pay for accommodation and food out of their wages. This is of massive significance because it means someone can elect to get their head down for a number of years, work hard, save money and build a future for themselves. How different are we here on dry land? Up at 6.30am to catch the 7.30am train then back home at 7.30pm or later if work demands it. Out of your wages you have to find mortgage payments, rail fare, food, car, insurance, heating, lighting, health care, council fees and the real big one a little thing called income tax.

 

Now go away and research income tax for people working at sea. Oh my goodness, the Dispatches TV makers seem to have missed that little point !!!

 

No one is getting duped. Here is crew information relating to Royal Caribbean Ships. It seems pretty up front to me. Crew recruitment information website

 

Henry

 

Well said and to the point

[NorbertsNiece]

One thing enlightened me was that Celebrity makes up the difference if there tips are low

 

so in theory if

 

A pays the recommended Tip of $5

 

B pays $10

 

C pays £2

 

The company won't top up the tips because he has exceeded the recomended tip of $5 per person

i.e B has subsidded C

 

Makes me think handing cash to staff is better for them

 

Exactly what I came away with......

[rogueangel]

On our last night on our last cruise I was chatting to our Assistant Waiter who comes from Macedonia. He had been working on the ship for a year and had brought his wife to work on the ship too as it was a much better life for them. He said he worked the breakfast shift in the Windjammer and then dinner in the MDR and the rest of the day was free and he loved it, it meant he could go ashore if he wanted, he got a chance to see the sights, call home (he said he had a favourite internet cafe at each port for skyping) or just to relax. Yes his "working day" might have been long, but he wasn't actually AT work the entire time.

[Able Seaman H]

We need to start worrying when all the staff members are on their first contract. I think I'm right in saying 80% of staff return for a second contract on ships. This wouldn't happen if things were as bad as the programme suggested.

 

I am under no illusion, I'm not expecting to see British workers fulfilling more menial roles on board the ships any time soon in much the same way I don't expect my training shoes, clothing, electronic items, household items or Christmas wrapping paper to be made here either.

 

I wouldn't mind if my telephone and banking services were run from the UK but sadly even that would seem to have migrated to countries where the UK minimum wage is not maintained.

 

The juxtaposition between the luxury of front of house on a cruise ship and the world labour market just happened to make good television. In reality your house is packed full of far worse cases of exploitation.

 

Henry :)

[Miamia65]

This seems like a way to rort immigration law, i.e. paying a recruitment agent lots of money to get a job. A common practice to pay an agent of some type to help someone get out of their own country and earn a living better than the one they have and send the money back to the family. It may seem legal but its probably a way of getting around loop holes in law.

 

Please dont flame me, but the international student recruitment out of many countries into USA, UK and Australia had many loop holes and had similar practises in that people paid agents to get them a visa to study and then work post study. The students then work in Australia for the same wages but double the hours and/or used the study as a pathway to permanent residency because thats what it allowed.

[vinniega64]

Certaqinly something to think about while wearing your $200 Air Jordans or $300 designer jeans that cost about $3 to make in countries where even "good" wages have a zero in front of the decimal point/hour, or while prattling on your smart phone that's made in conditions where the company had to install nets on the outside of their manufacturing plants so employees wouldn't kill themselves by jumping:rolleyes:

 

dont quite get what your saying, ive seen staff many times coming off the boat when docked, wearing top of the range clothes labels, exspensive cameras round their necks, smart phones, ipads.........................

not saying they get top wages, anything but.... the ones i speak to seem happy to be in employment thats better off than they get at home...

 

i for one, certainly wont be going on my cruise feeling sorry for anyone

 

i'll be on my cruise next week with my cheap supermarket clothes on, cant afford top labels, once ive saved up all year for a cruise, aint much pennies left....! thats my choice