Larry Pimentel Post # 2 - Land Discoveries Savings Program and Destination Immersion

[laurieb]

Why do you insist on "bait & switch"? Do you really believe that the changes to the Land Discoveries Program were decided on before the 2013 sailings opened up? My understanding of bait and switch is offering a product that doesn't really exist in the first place and substituting something totally different in its place. I sure don't see that as being the case here.

[CTLeeA]

[quote name='Jade13']CTLeeA, if you are going to quote me, please be accurate with my entire statement. What I stated to you on the main Azamara board/thread was,

[COLOR="Red"][B]"My guess is that they would agree to waive the cancellation fee."[/B][/COLOR] I than added, I don't think it was that much.", because I don't recall what the new cancelation fee is, but I think it is a small amount and my guess is at this point they would be willing to waive the fee for you (or anyone) who wishes to cancel because of this issue.

Personally, I think everyone should wait until next week to see what the cost of the shore excursions will be. Mr. Pimentel stated there will be some discount for those who have booked 2013 cruises. And, Bill Leiber had stated some would be less than the current full prices, although I don't think that is what Mr. Pimentel stated.

Most people (including us) won't book any of them if they are not interesting enough and/or we do not see the value. I am sure you would agree that those who are most upset are those who only do ships tours in the first place. But the point is that we do not know how these will be priced until the excursions are loaded next week.[/QUOTE]


Jade, I could't have misquoated you because I didn't quote you at all. If I misinterpreted what you intended to convey, my apologies for that. It's nice that your guess is that Azamara will waive cancellation fees but Azamara has given no indication that it will happen. If I missed something in Mr. Pimental's response which causes you to believe it, please point it out. Brits are facing the entire loss of their deposits if they cancel. Not every company will do the right thing unless pressured into it via regulatory agencies or negative press by travel writers. Unfortunately, it's why we have regulatory agencies within government. Based upon this entire episode, I don't share your confidence that Azamara will make people whole of their own volition. It's beyond the money with respect to a number of posters here..It's about principle...ethics...and honesty.

[CTLeeA]

[quote name='laurieb']Why do you insist on "bait & switch"? Do you really believe that the changes to the Land Discoveries Program were decided on before the 2013 sailings opened up? My understanding of bait and switch is offering a product that doesn't really exist in the first place and substituting something totally different in its place. I sure don't see that as being the case here.[/QUOTE]

If planned properly, the changes to the Land Discovery Program should have been made prior to the printing and distribution of Azamara's 'Destinations' 2013 marketing brochure and should have been explained in that brochure, which is dated on the back 03212. I relied on that brochure and the benefits described within to make my decision to go under deposit. Even if you are correct that the decision to eliminate the 50% discount was a hasty, last minute one made close to the Oct. 1, 2012 announcement date, it in no way excuses Azamara's decision to not honor the discount to us early bookers who feel misled and cheated.

Even by your own definition of 'bait and switch', Azamara did exactly that. The product I bought was a cruise which included a 50% Land Discovery Tour discount. That product will not be delivered to me. Had the cruise now offered been the product being sold when Azamara enticed me to make a deposit, I would have not done so. That's exactly what 'bait and switch' is all about. Ultimately, it will take a decision by a regulatory body to determine if Azamara has engaged in a fraudulent practice since they are showing no willingness modify their decision in a manner in which those of us injured are made whole.

[crzrr]

At the time of booking, there was no way of knowing what the price of any excursions for 2013, beyond the promotion end dates given, would be since, for most cruises the excursions only get released about 4 months prior to your cruise. Let's call that price (x). Since you didn't know what (x) would be equal to, you had no way of knowing what 1/2x is equal to. Now, Azamara could come back and say "fine we'll keep the 1/2 off for 2013". Then offer it so that 1/2x is equal to the amount that they really want to get for the excursion. Not illegal, not bait and switch, unethical maybe but who can call them on it. Actually it probably would have been less of a headache for them just to raise all of the prices and keep the promotion for 2013. At least this way we will know next week what the excursions will be for all of 2013 and later in November for all of 2014. This allows for plenty of time to review those excursions, research private excursions, and decide whether the pricing offered is fair.

[Jade13]

[quote name='crzrr']At the time of booking, there was no way of knowing what the price of any excursions for 2013, beyond the promotion end dates given, would be since, for most cruises the excursions only get released about 4 months prior to your cruise. Let's call that price (x). Since you didn't know what (x) would be equal to, you had no way of knowing what 1/2x is equal to. Now, Azamara could come back and say "fine we'll keep the 1/2 off for 2013". Then offer it so that 1/2x is equal to the amount that they really want to get for the excursion. This allows for plenty of time to review those excursions, research private excursions, and decide whether the pricing offered is fair.[/QUOTE]

That is what I was thinking when I said we needed to wait to see what the actual prices would be.

For those booking shore excursions through the ship, I would be more concerned about the following statement and am surprised this has not been mentioned yet,

"Our shore excursion savings will be managed in the same way our cruise revenue is managed. Every year we look at pricing and adjust as needed. [COLOR="Red"][B]The base pricing for 2013 will be the 100% pricing from 2012, however, you might see adjustments up or down based on how well (or not) the tours are selling.[/B][/COLOR]"

This sounds like shore excursions that are selling well will have prices adjusted up for the same cruise, and possibly during the same calendar year. With the exception of one cruise line were I have seen some prices go up on January 1 maybe $5.00 on some excursions, I don't think this is typical. I suppose it will encourage those interested to book early to avoid pricing increases.

[pacheco18]

[quote name='Jade13']That is what I was thinking when I said we needed to wait to see what the actual prices would be.

For those booking shore excursions through the ship, I would be more concerned about the following statement and am surprised this has not been mentioned yet,

"Our shore excursion savings will be managed in the same way our cruise revenue is managed. Every year we look at pricing and adjust as needed. [COLOR="Red"][B]The base pricing for 2013 will be the 100% pricing from 2012, however, you might see adjustments up or down based on how well (or not) the tours are selling.[/B][/COLOR]"

This sounds like shore excursions that are selling well will have prices adjusted up for the same cruise, and possibly during the same calendar year. With the exception of one cruise line were I have seen some prices go up on January 1 maybe $5.00 on some excursions, I don't think this is typical. I suppose it will encourage those interested to book early to avoid pricing increases.[/QUOTE]

This is one aspect of cruising where we ALL have control over costs. If you take private tours you will save a bundle, have a better and more intimate experience, can go where and with whom you choose, pick your guide and it won't matter if Azamara raises its tour prices 300%. To me, this is the least offensive aspect of the new policy as I can totally avoid its consequences.

[berkshireboy]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]As of today Azamara UK on their web page is still advertising 50% off excursions for 2013. At the best this is very misleading, at the worst [SIZE=3]?[/SIZE]. Perhaps the CBO or even Mr Pimentel would like to comment?

To ring Azamara in the UK to query the issue would involve a costly 'phone call. Unlike the US with its toll free numbers Azamara charges for calls in the UK and not just a normal tariff but a premium rate one. Perhaps this is another issue that needs looking at if Mr Pimentel would like[/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=3] [FONT=Arial] sustained growth in the UK "their market base must increase and their revenue contributions must become sustainable and demonstrate year over year growth" In fact growth in the UK has increased despite Azamara UK rather than because of it.

As an example I rang [on the premium rate number] Azamara on 1st October to see whether [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]the[/FONT][FONT=Arial] Nile at Luxor Cruise. Azamara Journey, 25 October – 9 November 2013 was included in the special flights offer. The agent I spoke too [who I will not name or shame] couldn't tell me even after conferring with her manager. She promised to ring back when she had obtained the information - I'm still waiting. I then did what I should have done in the first instance and rang my TA, who confirmed on the spot that the cruise was included in the special offer and, as a result I booked up with her. No thanks to Azamara though. Perhaps Mr Pimpernel should spend some time in his UK office to see how it is operating and, more importantly, how it could be improved.[/FONT][FONT=Arial]

This is the web page I referred to above. The highlighting is that of the original web page. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]
[B]Redefine your cruise with Azamara Club Cruises®[/B][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]
Whether you prefer leisurely days at sea or enticing evenings where you’ll discover sophisticated destinations en route, we have an itinerary specially made for you. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]

Book an Ocean View Stateroom between 1st October and 30th November and you’ll enjoy [/FONT] [FONT=Arial][B]free or reduced flights to Europe on selected 2013 sailings[/B]. What’s more, [B]enjoy 50% off[/B] our fabulous shore and land discoveries, [B]low price single supplements[/B] and [B]savings of upto £300 per cruise[/B] when you book a back-to-back sailing.

Plus you take advantage of our even more inclusive cruises, from 2013, where you’ll enjoy additional benefits like: [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]
[/FONT][/SIZE]
[LIST]
[*][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Inclusion of gratuities for all waiting staff, bartenders and housekeepers[/SIZE][/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Shuttle bus service to/from port communities[/SIZE][/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Open bars stocked with internationally branded beers, wines and spirits[/SIZE][/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]An AzAmazing evening in port where you’ll enjoy longer and later stays.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[/LIST]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]And for the first time ever, we’ve guaranteed all our taxes and fees are included in the quoted price.

These incredible added extras will be available on all on Azamara Quest sailings from 27 March 2013 and Azamara Journey sailings from 15 May 2013.

[SIZE=3]Does this mean - as it clearly implies, that [SIZE=3]UK passe[SIZE=3]ngers will continue to receive the 50% off excursions?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/FONT]

[zennor]

[quote name='berkshireboy'][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]As of today Azamara UK on their web page is still advertising 50% off excursions for 2013. At the best this is very misleading, at the worst [SIZE=3]?[/SIZE]. Perhaps the CBO or even Mr Pimentel would like to comment?[/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=3]...[FONT=Arial]

This is the web page I referred to above. The highlighting is that of the original web page. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]
[B]Redefine your cruise with Azamara Club Cruises®[/B][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]
Whether you prefer leisurely days at sea or enticing evenings where you’ll discover sophisticated destinations en route, we have an itinerary specially made for you. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]

Book an Ocean View Stateroom between 1st October and 30th November and you’ll enjoy [/FONT] [FONT=Arial][B]free or reduced flights to Europe on selected 2013 sailings[/B]. What’s more, [B]enjoy 50% off[/B] our fabulous shore and land discoveries, [B]low price single supplements[/B] and [B]savings of upto £300 per cruise[/B] when you book a back-to-back sailing.

Plus you take advantage of our even more inclusive cruises, from 2013, where you’ll enjoy additional benefits like: [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]
[/FONT][/SIZE]
[LIST]
[*][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Inclusion of gratuities for all waiting staff, bartenders and housekeepers[/SIZE][/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Shuttle bus service to/from port communities[/SIZE][/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]Open bars stocked with internationally branded beers, wines and spirits[/SIZE][/FONT]
[*][FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]An AzAmazing evening in port where you’ll enjoy longer and later stays.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[/LIST]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]And for the first time ever, we’ve guaranteed all our taxes and fees are included in the quoted price.

These incredible added extras will be available on all on Azamara Quest sailings from 27 March 2013 and Azamara Journey sailings from 15 May 2013.

[SIZE=3]Does this mean - as it clearly implies, that [SIZE=3]UK passe[SIZE=3]ngers will continue to receive the 50% off excursions?[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

I've seen this too. I raised it on this board and I contacted Azamara directly giving my reservation no. etc. quoting the text, giving the web address but am still waiting for a response... Though to be honest, I was just expecting them to remove it without saying anything. The fact that it is STILL on the website and presumably attracting potential customers just shows their disregard for UK customers. They are really not bothered. :(

[Corinium]

[quote name='zennor']I've seen this too. I raised it on this board and I contacted Azamara directly giving my reservation no. etc. quoting the text, giving the web address but am still waiting for a response... Though to be honest, I was just expecting them to remove it without saying anything. The fact that it is STILL on the website and presumably attracting potential customers just shows their disregard for UK customers. They are really not bothered. :([/QUOTE]

The issues regarding the abysmal UK website and apparent lack of interest in UK customers has also been covered in the questions raised by Porto59
-- UK Website -- Oct10th
and in my question -- Azamara Sweepstakes and UK Website --Oct 8th

I'm sure we're all waiting for Larry's considered response in his next post with bated breath ! That would be truly AzAzmazing but on the basis that it ain't going to happen I'm already looking at Crystal Cruises , who incidently have a much more useful UK Website.

[deise17311]

Book private tours and enjoy the cruise!

[marinaro44]

[quote name='Glenndale']I have to agree that changing terms and conditions once a contract has been agreed is unethical. The very least that Azamara should do is give you the opportunity to cancel your cruise with a full refund of all monies paid out.[/QUOTE]

Agree. P's response was a cop-out. And the current 100% prices for excursions are simply ridiculous. A very disappointing response...on the order of "let 'em eat cake.":rolleyes:

[taxjam]

[quote name='marinaro44']Agree. P's response was a cop-out. And the current 100% prices for excursions are simply ridiculous. A very disappointing response...on the order of "let 'em eat cake.":rolleyes:[/quote]

"Disappointing response?" Personally, I find Mr. Pimentel's response cavalier and arrogant reflective of his intention of migrating Azamara to a "bespoke" clientele something I think is misguided given Azamara's substandard infrastructure, i.e., 170 sq ft cabins, extremely inferior shore side services, etc.

[Jade13]

[quote name='marinaro44']Agree. P's response was a cop-out. And the current 100% prices for excursions are simply ridiculous. A very disappointing response...on the order of "let 'em eat cake.":rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Last year the prices were identical to Celebrity, and were substantially lower than HAL for the similar excursions. Of course at 50% off they were very reasonable.

[Jade13]

[quote name='taxjam']"Disappointing response?" Personally, I find Mr. Pimentel's response cavalier and arrogant reflective of his intention of migrating Azamara to a "bespoke" clientele something I think is misguided given [COLOR="Red"][B]Azamara's substandard infrastructure, i.e., 170 sq ft cabins, extremely inferior shore side services, etc.[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]


Does this mean you are canceling your cruise?

[HudandPug]

[quote name='taxjam']"Disappointing response?" Personally, I find Mr. Pimentel's response cavalier and arrogant reflective of his intention of migrating Azamara to a "bespoke" clientele something I think is misguided given Azamara's substandard infrastructure, i.e., 170 sq ft cabins, extremely inferior shore side services, etc.[/quote]


I think his style and way of speach is respectfull to a small bunch of potential and existing clients, who essentially he does not even have to explain anything too.

He is speaking to us as he would his management team or board who would have a mixture of those who agree, borderline/non commited and against. As a leader he must show consideration, clarity (within business permitted sensitivity in this case) and above all strength to take forward a plan that has already started but maintains some level of flexibility/adaptability. That is what he has said and that is what he is doing and he is showing that all clients are important to him, all the input from all sources inc here, has been taken into consideration according to the company direction, ability (within restricted growth, no new ship) and the current market situation.

I firmly believe if he wants to further diversify the client base to become more international, then the UK side of things needs to be sorted out pretty swiftly. Also to end further doubts, or prove them, the list of next years Azamazing experiences should be published along with the actual shorex details and costs. The later should have been ready to go prior to announcing any change to existing conditions and offers. This was a bad move and has caused much upset.

Overall I respect his leadership on this and feel that perhaps some of the management areas he needed to be ready are perhaps only 10% Azamara's ;)

[taxjam]

Jade 13 - We have back to back July/August 2013 cruises booked on Azamara. I am fully capable of planning my own excursions and have done so on over 50 occasions so I can certainly deal with Azamara's rescission of its 50% off Land Discoveries. I intend to enjoy Azamara's positives - its exceptional crew and great itineraries and even try its Amazing Evenings. As I said in another thread, "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice shame on me. However, I booked Oceania for winter 2013/2014 and "blacklisted" Azamara for unconscionable corporate behavior. To me, there are many attractive available options including other ocean cruise lines, river cruises, land tours, and independent travel. Additionally, having traveled a lot we have many friends who ask questions about our travel. I have done my own "unilateral rescission" canceling my Azamara recommendations made to friends and telling them to look elsewhere.

[marinaro44]

[quote name='Jade13']Last year the prices were identical to Celebrity, and were substantially lower than HAL for the similar excursions. Of course at 50% off they were very reasonable.[/QUOTE]
I'll put it simply: $389 for a one-day tour of Rio with lunch and an airport drop-off is ridiculous. At 50% off it's barely "reasonable."

[frequent traveler]

[quote name='marinaro44']I'll put it simply: $389 for a one-day tour of Rio with lunch and an airport drop-off is ridiculous. At 50% off it's barely "reasonable."[/QUOTE]

I don't what your experience with Brazil is, but I travel there frequently for business. Only a few months ago - in the off season, I hired a private guide for pick up and deposit at the Rio airport and a one day tour and the per person charge was substantially more than $389(it was a long day). I don't know the specifics of your particular tour (how many people, etc ) If this is the charge for a large group tour, could be high -but if its per couple only, its very much market for a guide that speaks your language. Yes, you may be able to do better if you go direct and there are some very good recommendations on CC - but if you are going during peak season book early.

Tourism in certain markets in South America has increased dramatically in the past 2 years and prices in Brazil are outrageous due to labor markets. It is only going to get worse with the World Cup and the Olympics. I dread having to go there during those events and hopefully no business event will occur.

FT

[marinaro44]

[quote name='frequent traveler']I don't what your experience with Brazil is, but I travel there frequently for business. Only a few months ago - in the off season, I hired a private guide for pick up and deposit at the Rio airport and a one day tour and the per person charge was substantially more than $389(it was a long day). I don't know the specifics of your particular tour (how many people, etc ) If this is the charge for a large group tour, could be high -but if its per couple only, its very much market for a guide that speaks your language. Yes, you may be able to do better if you go direct and there are some very good recommendations on CC - but if you are going during peak season book early.

Tourism in certain markets in South America has increased dramatically in the past 2 years and prices in Brazil are outrageous due to labor markets. It is only going to get worse with the World Cup and the Olympics. I dread having to go there during those events and hopefully no business event will occur.

FT[/QUOTE]It's a ship's tour with a busload of our closest friends. How can you compare to a private guide?

[CTLeeA]

[quote name='HudandPug']I think his style and way of speach is respectfull to a small bunch of potential and existing clients, who essentially he does not even have to explain anything too.

He is speaking to us as he would his management team or board who would have a mixture of those who agree, borderline/non commited and against. As a leader he must show consideration, clarity (within business permitted sensitivity in this case) and above all strength to take forward a plan that has already started but maintains some level of flexibility/adaptability. That is what he has said and that is what he is doing and he is showing that all clients are important to him, all the input from all sources inc here, has been taken into consideration according to the company direction, ability (within restricted growth, no new ship) and the current market situation.

I firmly believe if he wants to further diversify the client base to become more international, then the UK side of things needs to be sorted out pretty swiftly. Also to end further doubts, or prove them, the list of next years Azamazing experiences should be published along with the actual shorex details and costs. The later should have been ready to go prior to announcing any change to existing conditions and offers. This was a bad move and has caused much upset.

Overall I respect his leadership on this and feel that perhaps some of the management areas he needed to be ready are perhaps only 10% Azamara's ;)[/QUOTE]

I happen to agree with you: Mr. Pimental did speak to us as if we were his management team......and that's the problem: management teams tend to go along with whatever the boss wants. We are not his management team--we are his customers and this is not the first time Azamara has attempted to alter benefits..it did it just last year and the article is right here on Cruise Critic in the news section. Public outrage caused Azamara to reconsider and make whole the people harmed. Personally, I don't consider the 'enhancements' enhancements at all. There is no way eliminating one half the discount on tours (9 days on my cruise) equates with providing one free tour for 600 plus passengers...the math doesn't work. I went under deposit in August this year. Since then, there have 2 price increases and at present, the fare for my category is almost double what I paid. In return, we get an open bar? I don't drink $4000 worth of booze in a bit more than a week, so how is that an enhancement?

[frequent traveler]

[quote name='marinaro44']It's a ship's tour with a busload of our closest friends. How can you compare to a private guide?[/QUOTE]

it doesn't - and for $389 per person - if you want to do 6-8 people in a van , you can get an English Speaking guide for a day tour for that amount. The issue will be keeping luggage secure - that adds to the price with a 2nd person (driver plus guide).

$389 per person for a large bus is crazy high - unless you are going during Carnival . . . then everything is Quadruple price and probably higher for tourists.
FT

[marinaro44]

[quote name='frequent traveler']it doesn't - and for $389 per person - if you want to do 6-8 people in a van , you can get an English Speaking guide for a day tour for that amount. The issue will be keeping luggage secure - that adds to the price with a 2nd person (driver plus guide).

$389 per person for a large bus is crazy high - unless you are going during Carnival . . . then everything is Quadruple price and probably higher for tourists.
FT[/quote]December 18, 2012, is not Carnival. We are in agreement that $389, the 100% price, is "crazy high." I was using that as just one example in response to someone posting that Azamara's current 100% pricing was in line. I disagree strongly with that assertion.

[150edmiston]

The cruise we are looking at in 2014 will set us back £205 per night per person. This price includes almost $2000 discount through our TA. This is cruise only, and does not include air, hotels or misc spend. I haven't done the math at full whack as i am still breathless at the cost per night. Value for money? Maybe, but certainly not ours. As stated many times before, we love the brand and everything that goes with it. Ironically, we actually do fit the target demographic, in age and income, but sorry Larry you've got it wrong. We simply will look elsewhere as the VFM is gone unless we can find deeper discount. The other "enhancements", as compelling as they may be to some are not enough for us to justify the price.

As an aside, in LPs retort to my earlier question on price, i may have overstated the 40% hike, but 10% only?? Really? I don't think so. No where near this.


As for LPs style, i do understand it.

Bullish, which borders or arrogance, yet i don't believe he means to be curt, but he is the CEO of a big brand, and has to have a "linear" thought process. If he listened to and tried to execute everything he reads on this board, or elsewhere, it would all go to pot within a couple of months.

I do have to say, or repeat what i said at the outset of these new announcements, is that the die was set long ago. Nothing will deter LP or azamara from this direction, and the reality is that the RCC board will have ratified this change, although it may not have cascaded to shareholders as yet.

Dont be too hard on LPs style. Its not mine, but to each his own.

The brand re-direction, with its emphasis on elitism, with the wrong vehicles, is the most worrying aspect of what we see here. I have my (shaking) head in my hands thinking about it.

David

[Jancruz]

Bullish, which borders or arrogance, yet i don't believe he means to be curt, but he is the CEO of a big brand, and has to have a "linear" thought process. If he listened to and tried to execute everything he reads on this board, or elsewhere, it would all go to pot within a couple of months.

CEO of a big brand..I dont think so..think Carnival or even RCCL..those are presidents of big brands..

Jancruz1

[150edmiston]

[quote name='Jancruz']Bullish, which borders or arrogance, yet i don't believe he means to be curt, but he is the CEO of a big brand, and has to have a "linear" thought process. If he listened to and tried to execute everything he reads on this board, or elsewhere, it would all go to pot within a couple of months.

CEO of a big brand..I dont think so..think Carnival or even RCCL..those are presidents of big brands..

Jancruz1[/QUOTE]

Jan, you miss my point.

Scale, scope, reach, revenue etc are always relative to what we, as consumers want.

The earth is no where near the size of jupiter. Is it more important to us? Certainly not.

Its about mentality, clarity of vision, perception, and synergy with your customers. Size, in this debate is irrelevant. Does LP get this. Who knows, but his behaviour is typical of his genre and position.

David