Puerto Rico will be out of power for 4-6 MONTHS

[Mercruiser]

Here is an article on the Jones act in Puerto Rico

http://caribbeanbusiness.com/no-benefit-from-10-day-jones-act-exemption/

 

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[chengkp75]

Here is an article on the Jones act in Puerto Rico

http://caribbeanbusiness.com/no-benefit-from-10-day-jones-act-exemption/

 

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And, again, some misrepresentations:

 

"The exemption allowed Puerto Rico to not only receive ships from the United States but also vessels registered in any other country or directly from any foreign port."

Any goods shipped "directly from any foreign port" is not subject to the Jones Act, and therefore the exemption would have no impact on these shipments.

"“This is crucial, particularly for gasoline. One of the immediate priorities is to have fuel, gasoline, diesel, for all of the island."

Over the last 16 days since the hurricane, my company, alone, has had two Jones Act tankers drifting (since there are no good anchorages) off the coast of Puerto Rico, each loaded with 12.5 million gallons of diesel and gasoline. The ships were drifting because there was no opportunity to dock and unload. They have since unloaded, and are back in Texas waiting to load more fuel for Puerto Rico.

But, as I said from the beginning, this exemption was nothing more than public relations, since Jones Act foes were determined to use the hurricane and the suffering of the residents of Puerto Rico to force the debate on the Act, and this forced the government to grant an exemption, even though they knew it would have no benefit.

[Charles4515]

And, again, some misrepresentations:

 

 

 

"The exemption allowed Puerto Rico to not only receive ships from the United States but also vessels registered in any other country or directly from any foreign port."

 

 

 

Any goods shipped "directly from any foreign port" is not subject to the Jones Act, and therefore the exemption would have no impact on these shipments.

 

 

 

"“This is crucial, particularly for gasoline. One of the immediate priorities is to have fuel, gasoline, diesel, for all of the island."

 

 

 

Over the last 16 days since the hurricane, my company, alone, has had two Jones Act tankers drifting (since there are no good anchorages) off the coast of Puerto Rico, each loaded with 12.5 million gallons of diesel and gasoline. The ships were drifting because there was no opportunity to dock and unload. They have since unloaded, and are back in Texas waiting to load more fuel for Puerto Rico.

 

 

 

But, as I said from the beginning, this exemption was nothing more than public relations, since Jones Act foes were determined to use the hurricane and the suffering of the residents of Puerto Rico to force the debate on the Act, and this forced the government to grant an exemption, even though they knew it would have no benefit.

 

 

 

The Jones Act should be repealed permanently as regards to Puerto Rico. That would be of benefit to the people of Puerto Rico who have been paying an increased cost for goods as a result of the act.

[chengkp75]

The Jones Act should be repealed permanently as regards to Puerto Rico. That would be of benefit to the people of Puerto Rico who have been paying an increased cost for goods as a result of the act.

 

Where are your statistics to prove this? Even the GAO has not been able to show that the Jones Act has a deleterious effect on the PR economy. Even the shippers who make this claim, and who did not provide the GAO with any documentation supporting this, say that shipping from overseas is cheaper, so how is cheaper shipping, from the countries where the products are made, adversely affecting the people of PR? That may be used as an argument that the Act disadvantages companies in the mainland US, but it certainly does not show any disadvantage to PR.

[Charles4515]

Where are your statistics to prove this? Even the GAO has not been able to show that the Jones Act has a deleterious effect on the PR economy. Even the shippers who make this claim, and who did not provide the GAO with any documentation supporting this, say that shipping from overseas is cheaper, so how is cheaper shipping, from the countries where the products are made, adversely affecting the people of PR? That may be used as an argument that the Act disadvantages companies in the mainland US, but it certainly does not show any disadvantage to PR.

 

 

 

Having to use US ships and crew jacks up prices. Foreign goods shipped to Puerto Rico must pay high tariffs or go first to a US mainland port for shipping to Puerto Rico on a ship meeting the acts requirements, and ships that meet that requirement are more expensive to operate. All that means higher prices passed along to Puerto Rican consumers. It has cost Puerto Rico over 17 billion dollars over the last 20 years.

[chengkp75]

Having to use US ships and crew jacks up prices. Foreign goods shipped to Puerto Rico must pay high tariffs or go first to a US mainland port for shipping to Puerto Rico on a ship meeting the acts requirements, and ships that meet that requirement are more expensive to operate. All that means higher prices passed along to Puerto Rican consumers. It has cost Puerto Rico over 17 billion dollars over the last 20 years.

 

Please advise what "high tariffs" that Puerto Rico pays that the rest of the US doesn't? Since Puerto Rico is part of the US Customs Harmonized Tariff Schedule, the same tariff applies to an Iphone or television that comes from China to Los Angeles, where the tariff is paid, then is shipped by rail to Florida, and then sent by a Jones Act ship to Puerto Rico, as the exact same Iphone or television that is shipped directly from China to Puerto Rico, where the same tariff is paid.

 

About 67% of everything brought into Puerto Rico come from overseas, on foreign flag ships.

 

The cost of living in Puerto Rico, with the Jones Act, is 24% lower than in the USVI, without the Jones Act. The cost of an imported beer in the USVI is 30% higher, and a domestic beer, coming from the US, is 33% higher. Grocery prices are 24% higher in the USVI than in Puerto Rico. So, how is the Jones Act adversely affecting Puerto Rico.

[Charles4515]

Please advise what "high tariffs" that Puerto Rico pays that the rest of the US doesn't? Since Puerto Rico is part of the US Customs Harmonized Tariff Schedule, the same tariff applies to an Iphone or television that comes from China to Los Angeles, where the tariff is paid, then is shipped by rail to Florida, and then sent by a Jones Act ship to Puerto Rico, as the exact same Iphone or television that is shipped directly from China to Puerto Rico, where the same tariff is paid.

 

About 67% of everything brought into Puerto Rico come from overseas, on foreign flag ships.

 

The cost of living in Puerto Rico, with the Jones Act, is 24% lower than in the USVI, without the Jones Act. The cost of an imported beer in the USVI is 30% higher, and a domestic beer, coming from the US, is 33% higher. Grocery prices are 24% higher in the USVI than in Puerto Rico. So, how is the Jones Act adversely affecting Puerto Rico.

 

 

 

Compare the cost of living in Puerto Rico to the Dominican Republic.

 

Of course since you as a US crew member benefit from the protectionist policies that favor US shipping companies and also the discriminatory hiring in the US maritime industry you are inclined to defend the status quo but Puerto Rican’s who are treated as second class US citizens don’t benefit from the higher shipping costs.

[chengkp75]

Compare the cost of living in Puerto Rico to the Dominican Republic.

 

Of course since you as a US crew member benefit from the protectionist policies that favor US shipping companies and also the discriminatory hiring in the US maritime industry you are inclined to defend the status quo but Puerto Rican’s who are treated as second class US citizens don’t benefit from the higher shipping costs.

 

Well, comparing the USVI to Puerto Rico, since both are US territories, is apples to apples. Comparing Puerto Rico to the Dominican Republic is apples to oranges. There are many reasons that the cost of living between two different countries vary widely. The DR is primarily an agricultural economy, so many of the basics of life are domestic products, while PR has evolved to a manufacturing economy, so must import basics like food. One main reason for the difference in cost of living is the relative purchasing power of the nation's currency, and the DR ranks well below the US.

 

And, yes, I am a US merchant mariner, whose additional training and certification, as required by the USCG for US flag ships, has resulted in US merchant officers commanding a pay premium with foreign flag shipping lines, over other nationalities. If that is "discriminatory" then I welcome the discrimination, and US citizens should welcome it as well, as we keep our coastwise shipping safer than if it were foreign flag.

 

I guess you feel that Florida citizens are treated as second class citizens, since the majority of their refined petroleum products come by Jones Act tankers.

[Mercruiser]

PR will require in excess of $100 billion in US taxpayer money over the next few years to pay for all this reconstruction. I don't think its asking too much for the shipping jobs to go to US taxpayers instead of foreign flagged boats. After all, who is going to pay all these taxes that are needed to keep PR going? Certainly not the foreign flag shipping companies.

 

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[Charles4515]

Well, comparing the USVI to Puerto Rico, since both are US territories, is apples to apples. Comparing Puerto Rico to the Dominican Republic is apples to oranges. There are many reasons that the cost of living between two different countries vary widely. The DR is primarily an agricultural economy, so many of the basics of life are domestic products, while PR has evolved to a manufacturing economy, so must import basics like food. One main reason for the difference in cost of living is the relative purchasing power of the nation's currency, and the DR ranks well below the US.

 

 

 

And, yes, I am a US merchant mariner, whose additional training and certification, as required by the USCG for US flag ships, has resulted in US merchant officers commanding a pay premium with foreign flag shipping lines, over other nationalities. If that is "discriminatory" then I welcome the discrimination, and US citizens should welcome it as well, as we keep our coastwise shipping safer than if it were foreign flag.

 

 

 

I guess you feel that Florida citizens are treated as second class citizens, since the majority of their refined petroleum products come by Jones Act tankers.

 

 

 

The Jones Act hurts Florida citizens too. The effects are magnified for islands like Puerto Rico and Hawaii. It should be repealed.

 

US citizens should not welcome the Jones Act which benefits a few special interests over all citizens. I don’t welcome the act so that you and your cohorts can get premium pay.

[Charles4515]

PR will require in excess of $100 billion in US taxpayer money over the next few years to pay for all this reconstruction. I don't think its asking too much for the shipping jobs to go to US taxpayers instead of foreign flagged boats. After all, who is going to pay all these taxes that are needed to keep PR going? Certainly not the foreign flag shipping companies.

 

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The Jones Act holds US taxpayers hostage to benefit a few special interests. It is not a good thing for US tax payers or Puerto Rico reconstruction.

 

https://capitalresearch.org/article/the-sinking-ship-of-cabotage-how-the-jones-act-lets-unions-and-a-few-companies-hold-the-economy-hostage/

[chengkp75]

The Jones Act hurts Florida citizens too. The effects are magnified for islands like Puerto Rico and Hawaii. It should be repealed.

 

US citizens should not welcome the Jones Act which benefits a few special interests over all citizens. I don’t welcome the act so that you and your cohorts can get premium pay.

 

Well, as to premium pay, that is simply a reflection that the maritime world considers US officers to be a better investment than other nationalities, which is what any company does, pay more to get better qualified personnel. Let me ask you something, has your salary remained flat in current dollars over the last 40 years? Ours has, so that the same salary in 1975 now buys 1/4 of what it did. What I made as a brand new engineer in 1975 equates to 3/4 of what I make today as a Chief Engineer with 42 years experience. So that argument for higher shipping costs is somewhat specious.

 

Why is shipping any different from trucks, trains, or airplanes? These are all regulated by the US, so are we all being held hostage? Shipping simply uses another highway.

 

Now, US flag vessels pay for their inspections by the USCG through the annual inspection fee, but there is no charge to foreign flag vessels for USCG Port State Control inspections (including cruise ships), so if you replace US flag ships with foreign flag ships, in addition to dropping the stricter USCG regulations, you will also add to the cost to taxpayers by increasing the free PSC inspections.

[Mercruiser]

The Jones Act holds US taxpayers hostage to benefit a few special interests. It is not a good thing for US tax payers or Puerto Rico reconstruction.

 

https://capitalresearch.org/article/the-sinking-ship-of-cabotage-how-the-jones-act-lets-unions-and-a-few-companies-hold-the-economy-hostage/

"The Capital Research Center came under fire in the 1990s for publishing studies highly critical of charities which engaged in anti-tobacco lobbying efforts.[23]*These charities include the*American Heart Association, the*American Lung Associationand the*American Cancer Society. It was later revealed that tobacco giant*Philip Morris*provided $50,000 in funding to the Capital Research Center.[24]"

 

I wonder who funded their anti-Jones act paper?

 

 

 

 

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[Charles4515]

 

I wonder who funded their anti-Jones act paper?

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t.

 

If you have a problem with that source there are many other sources available about the large costs of the Jones Act and its negative effect on the Puerto Rican economy.

 

The Jones Act benefits one industry, it does not benefit US consumers.

Edited October 10, 2017 by Charles4515

[chengkp75]

I don’t.

 

If you have a problem with that source there are many other sources available about the large costs of the Jones Act and its negative effect on the Puerto Rican economy.

 

The Jones Act benefits one industry, it does not benefit US consumers.

 

The Federal Aviation Act benefits one industry: airlines

19 CFR 4.96 benefits one industry: fishing

8 CFR 214.2(b)(4)(i)(E) defines cabotage in trucking (no foreign driver can make deliveries from one location in the US to another), and benefits one industry: trucking

 

Just a couple that come to mind right away, pretty sure there are many more out there. So, all of these need to go?

[misand]

Very confused I thought this thread was about when cruise ships were going to stop in PR?

[harryw]

It went off on one of those classic CC tangents. At least it’s not down the rabbit hole of chair hogs,

[Thorncroft]

Very confused I thought this thread was about when cruise ships were going to stop in PR?

Yes. Carnival has stopped going to PR, right now. Hope that clears up some confusion.

[RMH]

Very confused I thought this thread was about when cruise ships were going to stop in PR?

 

Actually it was originally about the report on CNN that Puerto Rico would be without power for 4-6 months after the hurricane. But, as usual, it has taken several turns and loops and who knows where it will end up.

[cltnccruisers]

Had a dentist appointment yesterday. So what, you say? Well, everyone in the office from the DDS to the receptionist are from Puerto Rico. They know we are due to cruise there in March so we talk about how things are going.

 

Regarding supply distribution, most supplies to the more remote areas are being airlifted to the individual towns. The problem is that from that point it can be very difficult to get to the people and those folks don't always know that the supplies are available.

 

On power, they tell me the main power stations came through well but the problem is virtually all the lines and transformers were destroyed and have to be rerun. Where feasible, this is being done underground.

 

On the political front, an this may be most disturbing, the bickering isn't just between the president and the mayor of San Juan. There are over 70 mayors in PR who are responsible for coordinating relief and recovery in their towns. I'm told the level of cooperation among these mayors is almost non-existent.

 

Regarding the federal response, the consensus in the office was that had the feds positioned supplies ahead of time reaction time would have been much better. Hard to argue with that, especially when the DDS has a drill in my mouth, but it strikes me as a "hindsight is 20-20" kind of statement.

 

Next dental update Nov 16.

[Charles4515]

 

On the political front, an this may be most disturbing, the bickering isn't just between the president and the mayor of San Juan. There are over 70 mayors in PR who are responsible for coordinating relief and recovery in their towns. I'm told the level of cooperation among these mayors is almost non-existent.

 

Regarding the federal response, the consensus in the office was that had the feds positioned supplies ahead of time reaction time would have been much better. Hard to argue with that, especially when the DDS has a drill in my mouth, but it strikes me as a "hindsight is 20-20" kind of statement.

 

 

 

Puerto Rico does not run its own affairs. It is not a state or an independent country. It is a colony and has been treated in a second class way. Washington sets the rules. Not the 70 mayors.

 

It does not take hindsight to know that Puerto Rico being in the Caribbean will be hit by hurricanes. Nor hindsight to know the electric grid was in terrible shape. Puerto Rico is not a huge island. It is only 35 miles wide by 100 miles long. Certainly supplies could have been positioned there. The electric grid could have been modernized easily years ago.

 

If resources are poured in the grid can be repaired sooner than 4 to 6 months on a small island. I believe it will be.... but the time it has taken so far is too long.

[cltnccruisers]

Puerto Rico does not run its own affairs. It is not a state or an independent country. It is a colony and has been treated in a second class way. Washington sets the rules. Not the 70 mayors.

 

 

I actually asked my dentist how much authority the local pols really had for just that reason. His response was that they are the authority on the ground for emergencies and had responsibility (at least morally) to help their people regardless of the island's status. It almost sounded like a feudal system.

[Thorncroft]

Puerto Rico does not run its own affairs. It is not a state or an independent country. It is a colony and has been treated in a second class way. Washington sets the rules. Not the 70 mayors.

 

It does not take hindsight to know that Puerto Rico being in the Caribbean will be hit by hurricanes. Nor hindsight to know the electric grid was in terrible shape. Puerto Rico is not a huge island. It is only 35 miles wide by 100 miles long. Certainly supplies could have been positioned there. The electric grid could have been modernized easily years ago.

 

If resources are poured in the grid can be repaired sooner than 4 to 6 months on a small island. I believe it will be.... but the time it has taken so far is too long.

This is why we need to kick Hawaii out of the union and replace it with Puerto Rico as the 50th state. That way we don't have to spend money on new flags. Hawaiians hate us mainlanders anyway.

[cltnccruisers]

It does not take hindsight to know that Puerto Rico being in the Caribbean will be hit by hurricanes. Nor hindsight to know the electric grid was in terrible shape. Puerto Rico is not a huge island. It is only 35 miles wide by 100 miles long. Certainly supplies could have been positioned there. The electric grid could have been modernized easily years ago.

 

We discussed this yesterday as well. My dentist leaned toward positioning hardware - portable cell towers, generators and the like. His wife was more for stockpiling food and water. Then there was the question of location and security. My dentist was for stockpiling at existing military bases and using choppers to deliver as needed. His wife was for each municipality (or small groups of munis) stockpile locally and security be provided by the National Guard.

 

They were both pretty definite in their opinions. I hope I didn't start something....:o

[cltnccruisers]

This is why we need to kick Hawaii out of the union and replace it with Puerto Rico as the 50th state. That way we don't have to spend money on new flags. Hawaiians hate us mainlanders anyway.

 

You may or may not have meant this in jest but my late brother would have heartily agreed with that statement. He was in the USAF in Hawaii and stayed for a few years after being discharged. He had little good to say about the locals' attitude towards outsiders.