Viking has Messed Up and Can’t Cruise the Full Great Lakes

[Denny01]

We’ve been discussing this on the Viking Expedition thread, but I thought I’d pass this onto the full Viking group since this isn’t just a minor error. Viking Expedition with their beautiful icebreaker ships being built have added cruising on the Great Lakes with these ships since they can pass through the smaller locks. We’d booked a cruise from Thunder Bay Ontario to Milwaukee in March 2020 after our river cruises were canceled due to COVID and used the FCC for this. 

 

A year later, we booked a 2nd cruise, Milwaukee to Toronto, thinking cruising the entire Great Lakes would be a fun adventure. One after the other. We got the booking as a 2nd cruise. Just last week, on the CruiseCritic thread on Viking Expeditions, a US poster said they’d been contacted by Viking and told they couldn’t take book both itineraries because it was departing a Canadian port and ending in a Canadian port. I went on and on that these were two B2B’s not a single cruise, but a much more astute poster kept correcting me. 

 

So I contact my TA and yup, no go. Pick one or the other. 

 

I’m personally looking at maybe doing that, or cancelling the entire itinerary. To me, this is a major error by Viking. The Jones Act or the Cabotage ‘thing’ which limits this isn’t something new or something that Cruise Lines aren’t aware of. 

 

So just venting. I have probably posted 5 or 6 posts complaining about some Line out of more than a few I’ve posted over the many years, and I don’t think I Ever started a complaining thread. But for Viking to wait over 7 months to ‘see’ this, and then they Never contacted me or my TA and I learn from it from a fellow poster is just……I’ll leave that alone. My “Naval Language” is starting to pop into my head!!

 

den

[Heidi13]

I expect most pax who are regular cruisers are aware of the US Cabotage Act applicable to cruise ships - Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA).

 

However, the US isn't the only maritime nation with a Cabotage Act, many of them do. In Canada, we have the Canadian Coasting Trade Act. It is less stringent then the US PVSA, but is also less black & white. So here is a quick summary of the issue being experienced.

 

The US Act clearly states the requirements for foreign-flag tonnage to operate in domestic trades:

• R/T cruises must visit at least 1 foreign port
• Cruises between different ports must visit a "Distant" foreign port

In Canada, our Coasting Trade Act, reserves coastal trade for Canadian shipping, but does not provide clear guidelines for foreign flag ships. A cruise line operating a foreign flag ship need only apply to the "Minister", who publishes the request to industry. Provided no Canadian company responds that they can provide an equivalent service, the cruise line is approved, with no additional requirements.

 

I'll suggest, as new-comers to the Great Lakes, and the not very well know Canadian Cabotage Act, it is simply a tough learning curve for Viking. To put it in perspective, we covered the Coasting Trade Act in Ship Master's Business, when I did my Masters, but it was not covered in any depth. As a mariner, I knew more about the US PVSA than our equivalent Act. When CharTrav asked me a question about the situation, I had to review the Act, as it wasn't one I had to use in 35 yrs at sea.

[Denny01]

Thanks Heidi13. As I posted in the Expedition thread, Cancelling the initial leg (now not calling it a cruise!). 
 

too bad Viking hadn’t hired you to review their itineraries!
 

Just a theoretical question. How could Viking set up a cruise across all theGreat Lakes as I and I’m sure many others tried.

 

could they go from Thunder Bay to Milwaukee and stop there for more than a day and move all to a hotel and back, then on to Toronto. Some attempt to make it a separate cruise? Or, start or end the cruise from a US port such as Duluth on Lake Superior?

 

Would think these Great Lakes itineraries would be enticing with a full transit. 
 

den

[Heidi13]

10 hours ago, Denny01 said:

Thanks Heidi13. As I posted in the Expedition thread, Cancelling the initial leg (now not calling it a cruise!). 
 

too bad Viking hadn’t hired you to review their itineraries!
 

Just a theoretical question. How could Viking set up a cruise across all theGreat Lakes as I and I’m sure many others tried.

 

could they go from Thunder Bay to Milwaukee and stop there for more than a day and move all to a hotel and back, then on to Toronto. Some attempt to make it a separate cruise? Or, start or end the cruise from a US port such as Duluth on Lake Superior?

 

Would think these Great Lakes itineraries would be enticing with a full transit. 
 

den

 

Provided pax are only booking a single cruise, it isn't an issue, with either the US or Canada. If the schedule permits, you should be able to board in Milwauke, sail R/T to Thunder Bay, then R/T to Toronto.

 

Since you are boarding/disembarking from a US Port, the US PVSA applies. If the cruise is R/T, then you should only have to visit a Canadian Port.

 

To comply with Canadian Coasting Trade Act, if boarding in a Canadian port, you would have to fully disembark at a US port and the ship would sail without you being aboard. You could board another vessel the same day/next day and sail back to a Canadian Port. 

 

The other issue that could be impacting these sailings is the possible lawsuits over the Mississippi cruises. The CLIA mega ship owners are apparently fighting Viking's plans to charter the new Mississippi ship from a US Owner. This may have resulted in further scrutiny of the Great Lakes cruises.

[Twitchly]

Yes, seems like Viking could adjust the cruises to enable pax to do the entire Great Lakes. Maybe they will.

 

But how will Viking be allowed to do the Mississippi cruise given the restrictions of the Jones act? Or are those river boats too small to be affected?

 

(And of what value is this act anyway in our era?) 

[Heidi13]

7 minutes ago, Twitchly said:

Yes, seems like Viking could adjust the cruises to enable pax to do the entire Great Lakes. Maybe they will.

 

But how will Viking be allowed to do the Mississippi cruise given the restrictions of the Jones act? Or are those river boats too small to be affected?

 

(And of what value is this act anyway in our era?) 

 

The Expedition Cruises are operated by foreign-flag tonnage, so Cabotage Acts are applicable. For Viking to offer embarking and then disembarking in Canadian ports on the Great Lakes, they must submit a request to the "Minister", which is published to industry. Provided no Canadian company responds that they can provide a similar service, the request is normally approved. Unfortunately, I have no idea on the timeframe for these requests.

 

For the Mississippi Cruises, Viking has partnered with a US company - Edison Chouest Offshore, who are a shipbuilder and operator of offshore vessels. Being a joint venture, with the vessel owned and built in the US, and I expect crewed by US citizens, it meets the requirements of Cabotage, sailing under the US Flag.

 

However, the CLIA shipowners and their lawyers are apparently fighting Viking to try and prevent the joint venture operating in US Waters.

 

This is similar to the JV with the Chinese company that now operates the Viking Sun.

[vslparis]

I know that the cruise lines would love to see those Cabotage rules go away for cruises.  You run into the same issues with trying to do the same thing on some Alaska and Caribbean cruises .  

The fact that @Denny01 booked the two trips a year apart ( as opposed to booking them at the same time as B2B ) caused the disconnect .   I wonder if the person mentioned that received the email from Viking booked the two cruises as a back to back.  Usually, back to back sailings are review by cruise lines to prevent something just like this .

I am sorry that you were disappointed @Denny01   and hopefully Viking us this situation to better train their agents so that others don’t experience the same thing. 

Also, agree that Viking should have anticipated that some people would like to do two itineraries . 

Edited October 12, 2021 by vslparis

[Denny01]

21 minutes ago, vslparis said:

I know that the cruise lines would love to see those Cabotage rules go away for cruises.  You run into the same issues with trying to do the same thing on some Alaska and Caribbean cruises .  

The fact that @Denny01 booked the two trips a year apart ( as opposed to booking them at the same time as B2B ) caused the disconnect .   I wonder if the person mentioned that received the email from Viking booked the two cruises as a back to back.  Usually, back to back sailings are review by cruise lines to prevent something just like this .

I am sorry that you were disappointed @Denny01   and hopefully Viking us this situation to better train their agents so that others don’t experience the same thing. 

Also, agree that Viking should have anticipated that some people would like to do two itineraries . 

Understand. Now that Heidi13 has explained more fully, I understand that what I thought was OK with booking a single cruise from a Canadian port to a US port, then a while later, booking a 2nd cruise from a US port to a Canadian port would be allowed. Turns out Viking, after sending my TA the second booking, then combined the two into a 14N cruise so I thought that was the error - one cruise from Canada to Canada ports…..after finally listening to Heidi13, I understand it didn’t matter, it was considered a single ‘transit’. 

 

I can see how Viking would miss it when I booked so far apart, but one other booked a full run from Toronto to Thunder Bay and was allowed to do it and I have a feeling there are more than a few in the situation. Most of the Great Lakes cruises are fully booked for 2022.

 

den

[vslparis]

37 minutes ago, Denny01 said:

Understand. Now that Heidi13 has explained more fully, I understand that what I thought was OK with booking a single cruise from a Canadian port to a US port, then a while later, booking a 2nd cruise from a US port to a Canadian port would be allowed. Turns out Viking, after sending my TA the second booking, then combined the two into a 14N cruise so I thought that was the error - one cruise from Canada to Canada ports…..after finally listening to Heidi13, I understand it didn’t matter, it was considered a single ‘transit’. 

 

I can see how Viking would miss it when I booked so far apart, but one other booked a full run from Toronto to Thunder Bay and was allowed to do it and I have a feeling there are more than a few in the situation. Most of the Great Lakes cruises are fully booked for 2022.

 

den

They whole Cabotage thing is something us mere mortals will probably never quite understand so it is understandable that it did not occur to you.

Once Viking combined the two bookings, it should have occurred them though .  Let’s hope that they are paying more attention to this situation now.

[Denny01]

When I canceled my Thunder Bay to Milwaukee, Viking said the reimbursement would be within 21 working days. I canceled 12 Oct and got my full reimbursement back today, 4 days. 
 

I can live with that!  

den

[MSEm]

I just got a call from Viking;  I booked at Thunder Bay to Milwaukee to Toronto, 5 Feb 2020; 1 year 9 months ago. Viking stated: 1.  I need to cancel one leg of the trip

2.  Add a 3rd leg (Milwaukee to Thunder Bay then continue to Milwaukee and onto Toronto.  That would be legal.  Of course we would need to pay for an additional week, pay more for insurance and air fare, and to board dogs and parking at airport.

Any way you look at it I loose my very early booking benefits (extra saving and Silver Beverage Package) and Viking gains more revenue.

[Denny01]

7 hours ago, MSEm said:

I just got a call from Viking;  I booked at Thunder Bay to Milwaukee to Toronto, 5 Feb 2020; 1 year 9 months ago. Viking stated: 1.  I need to cancel one leg of the trip

2.  Add a 3rd leg (Milwaukee to Thunder Bay then continue to Milwaukee and onto Toronto.  That would be legal.  Of course we would need to pay for an additional week, pay more for insurance and air fare, and to board dogs and parking at airport.

Any way you look at it I loose my very early booking benefits (extra saving and Silver Beverage Package) and Viking gains more revenue.

 I can’t believe Viking is still just getting around to notifying passengers who have this itinerary. It’s been over a month since I learned and canceled the Thunder Bay to Milwaukee itinerary. 
 

den