Ruby Princess - Norovirus Outbreak

[SargassoPirate]

37 minutes ago, TenneSea said:

Yes, probably the biggest spreaders are the chair backs and seat and the menus in the main dining room.  How do you wash your hands after you pull your chair in?  Hand sanitizer does not kill Norovirus.  It will kill Covid, but not Noro.  Masks are not effective in preventing any virus.  Virus particles are too small, plus when a person removes the mask to place it somewhere, the exterior of the mask is usually touched so the person now has any bacteria or germ that the mask "caught" on their hands.

 

I grew up during the pre-vaccine days of polio, so I've always been a good hand washer.  On cruises I wash frequently, on the way into the dining areas, and sanitize after I'm all settled in at my seat. THEN, I keep my fingers out of my mouth and I don't touch any food with my fingers - including pastries and rolls (which I don't eat anyway)

 

Beyond these precautions, there's not much else I can do.  I will add that I've been on over 50 cruises without ever getting sick.  I never get the flu, other than a mild case in the 1960s that may or may not have been the flu in, and the last time I had a cold that required the use of a tissue was in the late 1980s. And, I'm one of the minority of Americans who still hasn't had covid.

 

 

[TexasBrit]

5 hours ago, TenneSea said:

Hand sanitizer does not kill Norovirus.  It will kill Covid, but not Noro. 

As mentioned in some earlier posts, it is the 65% alcohol sanitizer that is not effective against Norovirus. The 85% alcohol sanitizer is effective. It is available in some stores and online. Also Norovirus is not spread by the airborne route as COVID is, so masks would be no good anyway.

[VibeGuy]

11 hours ago, TenneSea said:

 Hand sanitizer does not kill Norovirus.  It will kill Covid, but not Noro.  Masks are not effective in preventing any virus. 

 Both of these statements are demonstrably incorrect - there are hand sanitisers with proven performance against Noro, and masks don’t have to stop viruses - they have to stop the droplets or aerosols they ride on.  
 

I agree that fomite (surface) transmission of norovirus is an issue, but the math doesn’t check out when it comes to chairs and menus compared to handrails and serving utensils - there just aren’t enough people touching them. 
 

Assume upon boarding that 2% of the passengers are contagious and half of them have lousy hand hygiene.  That’s about 30 people.   They can each touch one chair at each of three meals, one breakfast menu cover, one lunch menu cover and two dinner menu covers (now that the desserts aren’t in a separate cover).  While I don’t think surface to surface transmission is a thing in Noro, I’m going to say that the covers touch two others per meal period with a 50% transfer rate of poop. 
 

One person can, then, in the first 24 hours, maybe spread contaminants to ten surfaces that are possibly touched by one other person between applications of sanitizer - I’ve seen the menu covers and chair surfaces being wiped with Virox with a near-religious fervor between meal periods. Maybe 300 exposures from

those thirty filthy pigs with underwashed hands over 24 hours.  So that *might* be a problem, but let’s look at the real high-risk surfaces. 
 

Handrails and elevator controls where hundreds of touches occur between disinfections and with serving utensils in the buffet (perhaps a dozen per meal, each touched by dozens after that) are the real villains here. The risk just isn’t there for chairs and menus.  It’s high-intensity touch surfaces that need attention.   Those same dirty thirty could easily contaminate well over 1000 surfaces in 24 hours and each of those surfaces could contaminate dozens of people each between disinfections. 
 

Princess and other lines have had this modelled and one outcome was increasing the frequency of serving utensil changes in the buffet regardless of GI illness outbreak data.   Cutting the number of people touching shared surfaces by 75-90% is an effective control mechanism. 
 

 

 

[Bobbiegentry]

On 3/10/2023 at 6:49 AM, PescadoAmarillo said:

I understand that, and wasn’t suggesting you were. ☮️

No, but I certainly was and will continue to be dismissive of the media crowd who opt to sensationalize anything (particularly if cruise related) by employing banner headlines and overly dramatized drivel that serves as little more than click bait.   

 

 

@SargassoPirate put it perfectly……..”But, since the pandemic and cruise ships were all over the news at the start, anything cruiseship related gives the media a chance to sensationalize and exploit the story for clicks and ratings.”

[PescadoAmarillo]

51 minutes ago, Bobbiegentry said:

No, but I certainly was and will continue to be dismissive of the media crowd who opt to sensationalize anything (particularly if cruise related) by employing banner headlines and overly dramatized drivel that serves as little more than click bait.   

 

 

@SargassoPirate put it perfectly……..”But, since the pandemic and cruise ships were all over the news at the start, anything cruiseship related gives the media a chance to sensationalize and exploit the story for clicks and ratings.”

That’s your choice, of course, but if you drop your bias and re-read the article, you’ll realize that highly dramatized drivel was not part of it. In fact, it pointed out that norovirus cases on land were higher than on cruise ships. But you do you. 

[Bobbiegentry]

3 hours ago, PescadoAmarillo said:

That’s your choice, of course, but if you drop your bias and re-read the article, you’ll realize that highly dramatized drivel was not part of it. In fact, it pointed out that norovirus cases on land were higher than on cruise ships. But you do you. 

Now THAT’S funny. 
No mention or suggestion of the media dropping their ingrained bias, I see. That point of view itself displays a flagrant bias. 
Ready, fire, aim!!

But enough of this. Media cheerleaders have their place too. 
Enjoy your cruise. 

[PaperSniper4]

12 hours ago, VibeGuy said:

 Both of these statements are demonstrably incorrect - there are hand sanitisers with proven performance against Noro, and masks don’t have to stop viruses - they have to stop the droplets or aerosols they ride on.  
 

I agree that fomite (surface) transmission of norovirus is an issue, but the math doesn’t check out when it comes to chairs and menus compared to handrails and serving utensils - there just aren’t enough people touching them. 
 

Assume upon boarding that 2% of the passengers are contagious and half of them have lousy hand hygiene.  That’s about 30 people.   They can each touch one chair at each of three meals, one breakfast menu cover, one lunch menu cover and two dinner menu covers (now that the desserts aren’t in a separate cover).  While I don’t think surface to surface transmission is a thing in Noro, I’m going to say that the covers touch two others per meal period with a 50% transfer rate of poop. 
 

One person can, then, in the first 24 hours, maybe spread contaminants to ten surfaces that are possibly touched by one other person between applications of sanitizer - I’ve seen the menu covers and chair surfaces being wiped with Virox with a near-religious fervor between meal periods. Maybe 300 exposures from

those thirty filthy pigs with underwashed hands over 24 hours.  So that *might* be a problem, but let’s look at the real high-risk surfaces. 
 

Handrails and elevator controls where hundreds of touches occur between disinfections and with serving utensils in the buffet (perhaps a dozen per meal, each touched by dozens after that) are the real villains here. The risk just isn’t there for chairs and menus.  It’s high-intensity touch surfaces that need attention.   Those same dirty thirty could easily contaminate well over 1000 surfaces in 24 hours and each of those surfaces could contaminate dozens of people each between disinfections. 
 

Princess and other lines have had this modelled and one outcome was increasing the frequency of serving utensil changes in the buffet regardless of GI illness outbreak data.   Cutting the number of people touching shared surfaces by 75-90% is an effective control mechanism. 
 

 

 

Interesting........and I imagine all the cruise lines use some sort of computer modeling to help them determine the best way to prevent outbreaks.

 

 Doug

[jwattle]

On 3/12/2023 at 6:31 AM, chengkp75 said:

The simple way to break the chain is to not eat anything with your fingers.  If your hands are "contaminated" from the chair back, but you never touch the food with your hands, then the chain is broken.  So, those french fries, or burger, or pizza gets cut up with knife and fork.

To avoid eating "finger foods" with your fingers:

https://www.fourthoption.com/products/7-inch-eating-utensil-1