The Negative - Why?

[WolfpackFan]

Can someone please tell me why unbased negative critiques on this board seem to outweigh any of the positive actual experiences?

It is happening on all the cruise boards I frequent including Princess and NCL. To read all the various postings everybody sailing on cruises these days are having terrible cruises. I know I read terrible reviews about the Diamond Princess before we sailed on her threee weeks ago; but it was the best cruise we've ever been on.

[superstein61]

GAndie mentions the "regulars." It has been my personal observation that a couple of them may be at the root of the problem. Anything that speaks ill of the HAL line brings about swift retribution. There is even talk of this being "their" board.

 

And, it's a shame,

 

MarkT

 

I agree Mark. I left this board a couple years ago becuase some of the "regulars" were so bad in their defense of anything HAL that it was ridiculous. It just caused more problems than it was worth.

 

I prefer balanced views. I sailed on HAL once and enjoyed it - but was it perfect, no. Doesn't mean I won't sail on HAL again - in fact, I am later this month - but it means I can be objective and look at the good and the bad. In the past, many "regulars" could not - but most have changed. However, unfortunately a few are still HAL can do no wrongers - but oh well, they offset the rabble rousers from the other side now.

 

And quite frankly, when you talk about cliques - this board has nothing on the one where folks are addicted to cruising. I took on a couple regulars there who are part of "the club" , beat them badly in a lengthy but completely civil debate, and they had one of their buddies resort to removing the thread becuase it was no longer "interesting". Thats a clique !!!!!

[xpcdoojk]

I am a relative new reader of the HAL board here at CC, but I have been on CC in one form or another since before the year 2000. I have mostly posted in the RCI forum because I have taken more RCI cruises than other lines. I have been called a shill for RCI. Yet I actively seek out new adventures and horizons. I prefer to call Tr**ls the creatures that live under the bridge. The creatures are exactly as discussed earlier in this thread. They inhabit all internet forums that I have participated in, and they are nasty folks, with too much time on their hands, and not enough originality to be creative. Any forum has long time active members will seem like a clique to new posters. Generally, if you hang around awhile you will begin to understand their group dynamics, just don't expect them to respond to you in exactly the same way they respond to someone they have communicated with for years in this forum. They have a history with each other that you can't know, and that is the good and bad of being a long time poster.

 

My experiences are that the new people visiting a forum bring life to it, but are often guilty of bringing up dead horse topics that have been beaten to death. Therefore, don't be sensitive when they respond strangely because you don't know the history of the topic you are bringing up.

 

JMHO

 

jc

[heartofamerica]

Are that some have a tendency to blow things up to appear way worse than they were. For example, I have seen some reviews that had something like "Embarkation was a breeze, but then the nightmare began...our luggage did not make it to are stateroom until 5:00 p.m.". Well, considering that first seating at dinner isn't until 6:15, how could this be a "nightmare"? Inconvenient, maybe, but my idea of a "nightmare" on a cruise ship is hitting and iceberg and sinking. I've only been on two cruises - I think though that I am pretty good at looking at what was done well, and what has some room for improvement. For example, on our Zuiderdam cruise, I was in the second early seating, and the "Baked Alaska Parade" was timed to better fit the first seating passengers. I had a juicy steak and delicious lobster just begging for me to eat them, then the lights dimmed, the parade began, and EVERYBODY was encouraged to clap. As my dinner gets cold, but the folks upstairs were eager for their dessert. Could have been a lot better, but hardly enough to "ruin" a cruise.

 

At the end, I look back at what was good, what was bad, and then weigh which column had more entries in it. And though I've only been on two cruises (HAL and Celebrity), the list of "good" in both cases is considerably longer than the "could be improved" list. I feel kind of sorry for the folks who let something negative ruin the entire cruise.

[GAndie]

Don't you think that many times people genuinely post to ask questions because they've never cruised before and then get a little disheartened when someone who may have been posting for years comes back and responds in a way that's condescending, rude and invites negative posts in response?

 

As far as "trolls" or what some perceive as "trolls" getting kicked off the boards, that doesn't happen very often and I don't think people should be kicked off public boards because they disagree or express themselves in a way that some people aren't accustomed to.

[xpcdoojk]

GAndie, in that you are very wrong. This forum has a huge number of members and unfortunately, there is rarely a day that goes by that someone doesn't get kicked off the forum. It is not a rare event to have creature under the bridge posts. I wish you were correct. Yes, it is a shame when a genuine noob posts a question and gets accussed and slammed, but a little maturity is a big plus when it comes to dealing with internet forums. Don't take it personal when someone vehemently disagrees with you. You don't know most of the people so why let it bother you. This is not a public forum, it is a private web site. It is generating revenue and it is a private business. They are spending their own money not yours to run and operate this site and they have the right to operate how they see fit.

 

Here is an example of why you don't have all of your free speech rights in this forum. Think of this forum as a private home. You invite me over to dinner and I start exercising my free speech rights. First I call you names then I get to your mother and father expressing my opinion on their mistake in creating you. Do you have the legitimate right to ask me to leave? Of course. No free speech is violated by your doing so because I don't have the right to free speech in a private place. This is not the public assembly hall.

 

jc

[Host Walt]

Don't you think that many times people genuinely post to ask questions because they've never cruised before and then get a little disheartened when someone who may have been posting for years comes back and responds in a way that's condescending, rude and invites negative posts in response?

 

As far as "trolls" or what some perceive as "trolls" getting kicked off the boards, that doesn't happen very often and I don't think people should be kicked off public boards because they disagree or express themselves in a way that some people aren't accustomed to.

You're now raising the real issue, a practical one that will be with us always.

 

Many (most?) who have posted on this thread have been on the HAL boards for months and years.

 

Along comes John Doe. Just put a deposit on his first cruise, let's say the Statendam. He's jazzed. His wife is jazzed. Just 4 more months.

 

John goes on Google and types in Holland America Line and among other sites, up pops Cruise Critic! he goes in and finds the HAL Board and starts surfing through it. He sees some interesting stuff so, he says, "I like this. I can learn something."

 

So John posts a question.

 

And that's where the problem arises. A frequent participant (A) posts a reply that scolds John for not using the search feature; that he answered that question only two months ago. Then another (B) comes back with a reply to A that restarts a discussion that died with the older thread. Then another © tells A & B that she's tired of the dispute.

 

Meanwhile, hapless John Doe, who's just trying to learn about his new adventure, decides that he may have made a mistake booking a HAL cruise; if all HAL cruisers are like these people on the HAL Board, perhaps he should have chosen a resort vacation instead.

 

(The foregoing is a pattern that I've seen repeated frequently on this and other cruise boards.)

 

Our Community Guidelines start with this paragraph:

 

Cruise Critic is a community of folks who love to cruise and we all benefit from the exchange of advice that takes place particularly here! Our Cruise Board is a cooperative effort which depend on all of you to make it work well. If you post questions, please try to take the time to answer other members' questions as well.

 

If everyone could simply try this approach:

 

Ready - (read the post and understand the question, [issue, subject] from the poster's point of view)

Aim - (click the "preview post" button and think about your answer. Is it responsive to the starter post and does it help the discussion?)

Fire - (click the "Submit Post" button.)

 

Way too often we see a variation of that approach; I call it the Ready-Fire-Aim approach. That's what starts the heat...when a reply is not thought through before clicking "Submit."

 

If we all can remember that we once were all newbies like John Doe and were excited and apprehensive about our first cruises too, then respond helpfully and kindly. Then when a seasoned veteran cruiser posts something discussing his/her experiences (good or bad) on a recent trip, think about John Doe as well as yourself and engage in a discussion rather than a debate about the post.

 

Thanks.

[GAndie]

Thanks Walt, and I agree with you. NO ONE likes to get slammed and ganged up on by the "regulars" who have years of sailing under their belts.

 

In addition to that, there are people who HAVE sailed for many years, maybe not on HAL and maybe have not been on the boards before, but they sometimes get treated as though they are interlopers, ignorant, and really not welcomed here. Those people get defensive and lash back.

[gizmo]

As far as "trolls" or what some perceive as "trolls" getting kicked off the boards, that doesn't happen very often and I don't think people should be kicked off public boards because they disagree or express themselves in a way that some people aren't accustomed to.

I guess you did not understand my explaination of trolls. People do not not get kicked off boards because they disagree or express theselves in a way that some aren't accustom to nor does this describe a troll.

[lknick]

Few would seriously object to reports of “less than perfect” cruise experiences. Those who do are similar to those who gathered around Indiana Jones at the Berlin bonfire.

 

Few object to others holding differing opinions.

 

But I object to the majority of posts neither having to do with cruising nor providing answers to cruising questions but are to either promote a personal agenda, to personalize responses or misstate facts.

 

Unfortunately, some simply do not understand that the objective of Cruise Critics is to share information and not to just flap our tails.

 

And that’s why we’re supposed to have referees…called here “hosts.”

[GAndie]

I would agree, but isn't the name of this message board called "CRUISE CRITICS"? :confused:

[lknick]

Yes, Cruise Critrics...but not 'stop the world, I want to get off."

 

Criticism, like all freedoms, comes with responsibility.

[Joedog]

Actually just because this forum is called Cruise "Critic" doesnt mean we have to all be negative. The primary definition of "critic" is:

 

1 a : one who expresses a reasoned opinion on any matter especially involving a judgment of its value, truth, righteousness, beauty, or technique

 

I do believe that a "reasoned opinion" can be positive also. At least that's my reasoned opinion....and I''m sticking to it.

[RevNeal]

I would agree, but isn't the name of this message board called "CRUISE CRITICS"?

 

Websters provides the following definition of "critic"

 

Pronunciation: 'kri-tik

Function: noun

Etymology: Latin criticus, from Greek kritikos, from kritikos able to discern or judge, from krinein

Date: 1588

1 a : one who expresses a reasoned opinion on any matter especially involving a judgment of its value, truth, righteousness, beauty, or technique b : one who engages often professionally in the analysis, evaluation, or appreciation of works of art or artistic performances

2 : one given to harsh or captious judgment

 

I would venture to suggest that it's the first definition (a & b), not the second, which is intended here. Sadly, some people ("trolls" especially) love to engage in the second definition -- be they pro OR con the Line in question is beside the point, they are harsh and captious in their post.

 

In case someone doesn't know the meaning of the word "captious" (it's not one I use regularly), it is defined as:

 

1 : marked by an often ill-natured inclination to stress faults and raise objections

2 : calculated to confuse, entrap, or entangle in argument

 

Some who are not trolls are a bit more predisposed to look for, and stress, faults and objections without ever noting positives. Trolls, however, are best typified by the second definition ... their posts are "calculated to confuse, entrap, or entangle in argument." And they're good at it, too.

 

Our average, every day newby is NOT a troll. That those of us who have been around for a while sometimes don't respond to newby questions as helpfully as we might is unfortunate, but ... then ... I object to the broad-brush characterization that such is the response that newby posters receive. :) Sorry ... I don't intend to be contentious or argumentative, just stating a personal opinion. :)

[GAndie]

I don't know about anyone else, but I mostly see postive posts here, good reviews and pleasant discourse. I think it might be the negative comments that receive most of the attention. Something like our evening news!

 

EVERYBODY has a bad day once in awhile and I think patience is a virtue, personalities are different, and EVERYONE has something to offer whether it be negative or positive.

 

...and EVERYONE needs to cruise more often or pretend we ARE on a cruise if we can't actually be on one! :)

[RevNeal]

[QUOTE]I don't know about anyone else, but I mostly see postive posts here, good reviews and pleasant discourse.[/QUOTE]

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!
Capital!
You will have a gold star on your report card! :D

[Host Walt]

I commend to your reading this article: [url=http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT]Definition of an Internet Troll[/url]. If it looks familiar I posted it last year when the subject got escalated.

[GAndie]

Thanks Walt, I read it and I agree with most of it. There's one thing about it though that bothers me and that is that I've seen many people on many message boards, boards that are for social discourse, not hot topic'd political boards or other boards that are on AOL that are created to invite controversy, but I've seen seemingly decent people sometimes behaving like trolls who just because they've been around for awhile don't get treated as trolls.

There are a couple of characters on the boards (cruising boards) who seem to have a good reputation with other regular posters but they insult, patronize and make many people feel uncomfortable.

The other regulars on the boards just give them the slide and laugh about it and don't chastise the person doing it.
Afterall, "...he's been around and posted with them for a long time and well, you just have to get to know him....."

This does invite a defensive rebuttal and not always kind, from the person this is directed to. Next thing ya know...a board degenerates, feelings are hurt and the only people left to post are the regulars who have this idea that they belong to a private club and if you don't "smell" like one of them in the beginning, you won't be welcome no matter how polite you are.

These are my personal observations as I've been reading these boards for years and have been posting and responding for years.

[Sailure]

Don't worry about it Gandie. This board belongs to everybody not just the regulars;)

[ryansmemom]

Check out the thread "beating the bar tab" we've been having a civil discussion over there for a couple of days now. We've even got some newbies sharing their thoughts. It's really nice, the water is not hot, though. It's not for people who crave excitement, but is is interesting.

I think the people who are participating like it, I know I do.

Linda

[Thoth]

Don't most of you think that these flamers and other negative voices are more indicative of computer message boards than cruise travelers.? In other words it's a internet thing!?
I have been on 4 going on 5 cruises and just don't meet many crybabies on these ships. The happy seems to greatly overwhelm the disgruntled.
For example some Internet posters claim that the White Pass Railroad in Skagway Alaska is boring. NOBODY that I spoke with on the train last year would use the word "boring". Also I have read those who describe the food on HAL as "bland" . Some cruise line's food might be better than others, however relatively speaking cruise food is hardly "bland".
My point I suppose is that we cannot take what people post over the internet as indicative of our expectations.

[ryansmemom]

I think that we are bombarded, in our daily lives, with negative images. In the media, in our workplaces, in our schools. Americans are becoming conflict junkies. Just look at the TV schedule of "Reality TV" shows. Does anyone really beleive this is reality? Check out the nightly news, if you can stomach it. Violence and conflict and negativity abound.

I think that, for many people, negativity feels more [B]real[/B]. It seems more in sinc with what they are being told the real world is like and the filters are up. Also, for some folks, it's exciting. It rasies their heart rate and it seems more interesting.

Message board give people the illusion of anoynomity and privacy. They forget they are being monitered. They forget their is a record of what they are writing. They forget this is as private as a cell phone conversation. But some people think that is private, too.

Personally, I find real dialougue far more interesting and exciting. I am more interested in hearing what people really have to contribute than quick, snappy retorts. I think; I might be wrong here; that people interested in learning about cruising are interested in that, too.

We are here to help each other, not just to show how clever we are. Yeah we can do that as well. We who have been on cruises, also bear the responsibilty to newcomers to present a balanced report of our experience.

It really concerned me when people, on the old board, were writing that they were considering cancelling their cruise becuase of what they read on this board.

I will now step down from my soap box.
No flames please.
Linda

[HeatherInFlorida]

[font=Comic Sans MS][color=indigo]I have to be so careful how I write this. I started reading and posting a year or so ago. I was at the Celebrity site because we were going on the Millie. More recently I've been on the HAL boards because in November we'll cruise for the 2nd time on HAL. Well, we were on the Wind Song in Tahiti, but that doesn't count as HAL, I guess.[/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=#4b0082][/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=#4b0082]I have to say that throughout this experience I have noticed the "regulars" and they have often made me feel that I'm not really a part of the group. I really try to post nicely because I know how the written word can be misconstrued. Yet some were really, really cutting. The last time I suffered hurt feelings I just retreated for awhile but I've decided not to let it bother me. When someone jabs at me, I just get out of the thread. [/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=#4b0082][/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=#4b0082]I do want to say that I think it was Gizmo that made me realize I simply can't take it personally. I don't know anything about Gizmo, but this person (he?she?) has always been fair and kind when others were not. So thank you, Gizmo.[/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=#4b0082][/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=#4b0082]There is no question in my mind that I've been ignored by certain individuals. Sometimes it's as if I haven't posted at all. It hurts, it's kind of like not being part of a conversation. But what the heck? I decided to plow on because I love this site and I've learned a lot from it.[/color][/font]

[jhannah]

Linda, you are right on target. Sad thing is, most of those folks think it [i]IS[/i] reality. Too many years of soap operas. (Sorry fans, but I was in the TV business for a number of years and couldn't believe how many people get so into it that they can no longer distinguish between real people and actors portraying characters. OT, I know. Sorry.

Anyhoo, hang in Heather. You're absolutely right in letting hurtful things roll off like water on a duck's back. There will always be vitriolic and mean-spirited people, and those who just lack the ability to weigh their words before spitting them out.

[Sailure]

Of course there will always be mean spirited people, that's life. Some people think and convey the message that if someone is unhappy about something and they express it that it's "flaming".

For those that think the "regulars" are a part of the problem, my suggestion is to stay on the boards, express your opinons even if they are the opposite of die-hard --------(fill in the blank of the cruiseline) defenders and there will be a balanced view from everyone.

Some people have truly had bad experiences, even ONE and they paid so very much for the experience that they want to let others know about it. I don't blame them and it's their right to express themselves.

One person's "flamer" could be another person's "savior".

But as the "regulars" say, when they're the ones doing the flaming on a "newbie" poster, "don't take it personally." Even though a moderator put up an article that says people DO take it personally.;)