The Negative - Why?

[ryansmemom]

Hi Heather

I can understand how you feel. I have felt slammed myself and have said many times, "don't flame me" and "I feel like I'm walking on eggshells". That's why I decided to try to do something about it. I have been more active on this board over the past few days than I have ever been. I have been trying to encourage people to be civil and be positive and share their thoughts.

I think, it can work. Over at the "beat the bar bill" thread there has been a very good conversation going. People are working hard to keep it civil and although it's not perfect, it's really good.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything. I just think, if the people who want to keep this board positive and civil can do it if we don't react to the trolls and negative people. We have to stand up and say [B]stop[/B].

On this thread, "beat the bar tab" new people are coming out and sharing their ideas and experiences. Also, people are apologizing if they hurt someone's feelings.

Check it out :) Who knows, maybe we can talk about "Formal Night" ;)

[fb0075]

You should hang around the Princess board--4-5 people "RAN" the board and ANY negative comment was immiediatly "LAMBASTED"--not the comment but the POSTER--
After the board switch, they have calmed down as some of us got FED UP and THE CREW TURNED ON THE CAPTAINS!!
Noticed the other day that 1 person especially is starting his old ways! Amazing that this is their WHOLE WORLD--they are on the board 16 hrs a day and talk between each other all the time--a mutual admiration society---
What everyone NEEDS to remember is that EVERYONE has a right to their "OPINION"==How can any intelligent person attack 1 persons OPINION?
OH WELL < TO PEACEFUL HERE> LETS LOOK BACK OVER THERE!!
FRANK

[HeatherInFlorida]

[font=Comic Sans MS][color=navy]Frank, yes that's exactly what I saw. I wish I could remember the timing of it. Or even if it was the HAL boards. But there were a bunch of "guys" (I could just tell) on a thread that I innocently happened into. It was 100% negative and they all knew each other. Then lil ole me pops up with something positive and they were all over me! I actually felt physically bludgeoned. It was clear these guys were "at work" (heaven help their employers) and they sit and post on here all day. I never saw them on weekends.[/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=navy][/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=navy]I know there's good and bad about every cruiseline. I'm just partial to Celebrity and Holland America. I know they've made changes and some of them appear to be bad ones, but with time I feel they'll get it worked out. Some people believe that HAL is literally "out to get" them and this simply makes no sense. [/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=navy][/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=navy]Just to stay on track, I've always seen the glass half full. I like to read the negatives as well as the positives, but I have to say I listen more when it's not 100% negative. The fact is there are some people you can't please no matter how hard you try;) . I still believe that just being out there on the high seas with the wind at my back is better than no cruise at all:) . [/color][/font]

[gizmo]

Heather,

You are welcome, and thank you for the nice compliment.
Gizmo is a she. :)

[HeatherInFlorida]

Gizmo, I should have known :)

[uncialman]

I have always tried to be as objective and gracious in my review of what I thought of a cruise experience but realize that it is still just my opinion. My first 3 cruises on HAL were magnificient and the last was a bit below my expectations. I realize that some on the board did not like the criticism but if they would realize that my comments were made out of a love and concern for the HAL product, they might soften their harsh word.

My wife and I truly love the HAL product and prey that the suits don't go and mess up the entire product. I really hope that the Zuiderdam was an anomally and that the rest of the fleet will carry the HAL tradition.

uncialman

[Sailure]

Fortunately there are lots of good cruiselines out there. ALL of them have a bad thing happen at one time or another and nothing is ever perfect all the time.

I think it's great that we hear the pros and cons of everything. I also know that just because a few people have had bad experiences that that doesn't mean you, or I will. Every once in awhile the stars and the planets have to line up [color=red]just[/color] perfectly for something to hit the skids or soar the skies!

[uncialman]

Sailure,

Don't get me wrong here (I am not personally directing this to you) but the thing that irritates me the most, and in my opinion one of the dangerous ideas out there, are the statements that go something like, "who cares is my steak came out well-done instead of rare; I'm on a cruise" or, "so what if HAL has terrible customer service -you complain too much." Such statements aren't constructive or helpful to HAL or to other cruisers who are looking for a good place to drop between 2 and a half to 10K on a vacation. If they are used to quality standards that have been promised in the past, they should expect them.

Take the issue that I commented on with Sail7Seas about Tampa Hotels: I gave my honest appraisal of some 'luxury' hotels in the Tampa area that are just not 'luxury' accomadations anymore. Product levels have slipped but the $$$ have not in some of these hotels. Meanwhile, some hotels that have not been known for luxury (The Marriot Waterside) have surpassed the Hyatt downtown in their product.

This is to say, once again, that HAL needs to address their slipping product standards (and overall ambiance for that matter) if they wish to continue to hold their moniker of being a 'premium' brand. I love HAL and certainly wish that they will not continue slipping.

uncialman

[superstein61]

[quote name='uncialman']Sailure,

Don't get me wrong here (I am not personally directing this to you) but the thing that irritates me the most, and in my opinion one of the dangerous ideas out there, are the statements that go something like, "who cares is my steak came out well-done instead of rare; I'm on a cruise" or, "so what if HAL has terrible customer service -you complain too much." Such statements aren't constructive or helpful to HAL or to other cruisers who are looking for a good place to drop between 2 and a half to 10K on a vacation. If they are used to quality standards that have been promised in the past, they should expect them.

Take the issue that I commented on with Sail7Seas about Tampa Hotels: I gave my honest appraisal of some 'luxury' hotels in the Tampa area that are just not 'luxury' accomadations anymore. Product levels have slipped but the $$$ have not in some of these hotels. Meanwhile, some hotels that have not been known for luxury (The Marriot Waterside) have surpassed the Hyatt downtown in their product.

[/QUOTE]

How right you are uncialman. It is why I like to see post the good and the bad about their time on board. Presenting only a rose colored picture - (oh well XYZ was bad but I won't say so because hey, I am on a cruise) is wrong and misleading. I applaud those who share positive and negative experiences. It shows they are objective. no cruise line today is perfect. People asking questions need to hear both sides of the spectrum to get all the facts

[uncialman]

I am glad that you are a thinking man ( or woman, I claim ignorance!) and care about objective viewpoints.

That being said, fb0075 is correct in stating that things are much worse on the Princess boards where a single negative comment will get you leveled as a hellbound Celebrity spy or bent on world cruise domination by HAL or something. The fact is, the entire industry seems to be 'slipping' quite a bit and the only cruise lines to up the anty (quality and standards wise) are Celebrity and Crystal (with Crystal being out of range, price wise, of 99.99% of current regular cruisers). As someone who cruises all the lines, the slippage in HAL seems to be the most drastic of all the cruise lines with Carnival actually improving the bargain basement product.

Signature of Excellence?!?! We should do a poll and ask how many would prefer

1. Nice China
2. Egyptian Cotton
3. Super duper comfy beds
4. Fruit in a bowl
5. Rock/Pop in public areas and hallways
6. Vista Class Vessels

over

1. Better trained staff and better staffed ships
2. Higher Quality Food in the Dining Room (ala Celebrity)
3. Java Cafe over Windstar (pay) cafe
4. Keep the fruit
5. Classics and Light Jazz in public areas
6. R-Class Vessels (Rotterdam/Amsterdam)

I know that my wife and I would take the latter. However, the execs and product development folks at HAL seem hell-bent to shove the other down our throat.

If this kind of thing continues, HAL will no longer be the HAL that we fell in love with.

uncialman

[RevNeal]

[QUOTE]... my wife and I would take the latter.[/QUOTE]

Ditto, though the extra-comfy beds will be very nice, I must admit. And, the S and R ships are my favorite too. I don't mind some change, but I do want quality ... particularly in service. When it slips, I'm not happy. I wasn't happy with the service problems I experienced on the Volendam in Jan 2002. By Nov/Dec 2002, on the Statendam, the service was -- in my experience -- pretty much what I've known since 1994. Last Sept., however, the service on the Volendam, while marginally acceptable, was weak in areas. The Cabin steward was top-notch, and our dining room crew did their very best, but it was difficult to watch them because it was apparent that they were short-handed. Where service was greatly lacking was in the lounge stewards. In some lounges the only way to get a drink was to go the bar. It got better as the week went by, but the first two night the only place one could get anything remotely like good service was the Piano Lounge; in the Explorers' lounge the service was (I'm sorry to say) pathetic. We didn't let it get to us ... we just went to where the service was good (and mentioned some of the problems to the Hotel Manager).

[superstein61]

[quote name='uncialman']I am glad that you are a thinking man ( or woman, I claim ignorance!) and care about objective viewpoints.

That being said, fb0075 is correct in stating that things are much worse on the Princess boards where a single negative comment will get you leveled as a hellbound Celebrity spy or bent on world cruise domination by HAL or something. The fact is, the entire industry seems to be 'slipping' quite a bit and the only cruise lines to up the anty (quality and standards wise) are Celebrity and Crystal (with Crystal being out of range, price wise, of 99.99% of current regular cruisers). As someone who cruises all the lines, the slippage in HAL seems to be the most drastic of all the cruise lines with Carnival actually improving the bargain basement product.

Signature of Excellence?!?! We should do a poll and ask how many would prefer

1. Nice China
2. Egyptian Cotton
3. Super duper comfy beds
4. Fruit in a bowl
5. Rock/Pop in public areas and hallways
6. Vista Class Vessels

over

1. Better trained staff and better staffed ships
2. Higher Quality Food in the Dining Room (ala Celebrity)
3. Java Cafe over Windstar (pay) cafe
4. Keep the fruit
5. Classics and Light Jazz in public areas
6. R-Class Vessels (Rotterdam/Amsterdam)

I know that my wife and I would take the latter. However, the execs and product development folks at HAL seem hell-bent to shove the other down our throat.

If this kind of thing continues, HAL will no longer be the HAL that we fell in love with.

uncialman[/QUOTE]

Uncialman - I agree that the entire industry has changed - and to me, there is very little differentiation between lines these days - which is why now I focus on itinerary and price when choosing moreso than a particular line. If itinerary and price are about equal, then I can focus on some of the small differences among most of the mass market lines.

Actually on the lists you presented - I would actually choose a mixture:

1.
2.
3. Super duper comfy beds
4. Fruit in a bowl
5. Rock/Pop in public areas and hallways
6. Vista Class Vessels (UNKNOWN)

over

1. Better trained staff and better staffed ships
2. Higher Quality Food in the Dining Room (ala Celebrity)
3.
4.
5.
6. R-Class Vessels (UNKNOWN)

On item 6 - since I haven't been on a Vista class yet (will be at the end of this month) I can't assess that yet. But different people have different likes -

[Thoth]

[quote name='uncialman']I am glad that you are a thinking man ( or woman, I claim ignorance!) and care about objective viewpoints.

That being said, fb0075 is correct in stating that things are much worse on the Princess boards where a single negative comment will get you leveled as a hellbound Celebrity spy or bent on world cruise domination by HAL or something. The fact is, the entire industry seems to be 'slipping' quite a bit and the only cruise lines to up the anty (quality and standards wise) are Celebrity and Crystal (with Crystal being out of range, price wise, of 99.99% of current regular cruisers). As someone who cruises all the lines, the slippage in HAL seems to be the most drastic of all the cruise lines with Carnival actually improving the bargain basement product.

Signature of Excellence?!?! We should do a poll and ask how many would prefer

1. Nice China
2. Egyptian Cotton
3. Super duper comfy beds
4. Fruit in a bowl
5. Rock/Pop in public areas and hallways
6. Vista Class Vessels

over

1. Better trained staff and better staffed ships
2. Higher Quality Food in the Dining Room (ala Celebrity)
3. Java Cafe over Windstar (pay) cafe
4. Keep the fruit
5. Classics and Light Jazz in public areas
6. R-Class Vessels (Rotterdam/Amsterdam)

I know that my wife and I would take the latter. However, the execs and product development folks at HAL seem hell-bent to shove the other down our throat.

If this kind of thing continues, HAL will no longer be the HAL that we fell in love with.

uncialman[/QUOTE]I'll take the second set of list Class + Quality

[HeatherInFlorida]

[quote name='superstein61']
Actually on the lists you presented - I would actually choose a mixture:

1.
2.
3. Super duper comfy beds
4. Fruit in a bowl
5. Rock/Pop in public areas and hallways
6. Vista Class Vessels (UNKNOWN)

over

1. Better trained staff and better staffed ships
2. Higher Quality Food in the Dining Room (ala Celebrity)
3.
4.
5.
6. R-Class Vessels (UNKNOWN)

On item 6 - since I haven't been on a Vista class yet (will be at the end of this month) I can't assess that yet. But different people have different likes -[/QUOTE]
[font=Comic Sans MS]Guess what, Superstein!!!!! I agree with you AGAIN!! Are the stars in alignment or what!!!???[/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS]Whoops! Spoke too soon. I don't need the fruit in a bowl. But other than that, you've got my vote. [/font]

[superstein61]

[quote name='HeatherInFlorida'][font=Comic Sans MS]Guess what, Superstein!!!!! I agree with you AGAIN!! Are the stars in alignment or what!!!???[/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS]Whoops! Spoke too soon. I don't need the fruit in a bowl. But other than that, you've got my vote. [/font][/QUOTE]

:) :) :) - Only reason I went for the fruit in the bowl is for my trusty blender :) Especially if there are banana's in that bowl :)

[HeatherInFlorida]

[quote name='superstein61'] Only reason I went for the fruit in the bowl is for my trusty blender :) Especially if there are banana's in that bowl :)[/QUOTE]
Ooooooooooooooooh. I forgot you were bringing your blender. But don't worry about the bananas because I'm smuggling those onboard. There's plenty of room in my bags since I'm not smuggling any alcohol:D

[ekerr19]

I checked in today after a few weeks away from the board. Wow, I was surprised to see this topic is still on page one... I read a couple of other threads and can see why I posted it to begin with. Definitely strong opinions on some hot topics...

Is it just me, or does anyone else find the negativity draining? I'm really curious, not trying to blast anyone - but it gets hard to keep reading the same blasts over and over again.

Someone (Gizmo, I think) posted earlier in this thread what negativity I was referring to - sorry I should have specified, but it's just the general tone of some of the threads and the comments.

I used to love spending time here, lately it feels like a battleground. Anyone else have the same feeling?

[superstein61]

[quote name='HeatherInFlorida']Ooooooooooooooooh. I forgot you were bringing your blender. But don't worry about the bananas because I'm smuggling those onboard. There's plenty of room in my bags since I'm not smuggling any alcohol:D[/QUOTE]

Great. We have the blender, banana's and rum all covered now. Who else is in with what ?

[HeatherInFlorida]

[quote name='ekerr19'].................................
Is it just me, or does anyone else find the negativity draining? I'm really curious, not trying to blast anyone - but it gets hard to keep reading the same blasts over and over again....................

.....I used to love spending time here, lately it feels like a battleground. Anyone else have the same feeling?[/QUOTE]
[font=Comic Sans MS]ekerr, I have often found it somewhat draining for sure. On the other hand, I've found if I stick with it and scan around a bit, it's overall an upbeat feeling and as time goes by there's more and more joking around and it all takes on a different feel. You'll see a person battling it out on one thread and lending help and support on another.[/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS]Heck, I even made friends with Superstein and we were really battling it out on a thread that has since been locked up! So there's always hope.[/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS]I've left here a couple of times and I'll probably leave again because who has the time? But overall I think it's a nice group of people who obviously love cruising (otherwise, why would they keep doing it?), but who also have some very strong feelings about a lot of things. Put that all together on one board, or more specifically one thread, and it can become a little overpowering at times.[/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][/font][font=Comic Sans MS][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS]It's human nature for people to spend more time complaining than complimenting. I agree that it can get overly negative at times which was what drew me to your thread in the first place. But I have to tell you that I've learned something over the past few days and in the end, for me, it was a good feeling.[/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS]Happy Sailing![/font]

[Seadoc]

Yet again, confusion abounds...otherwise rational people suddenly succumb
to the dreaded and incurable "is this a message board or an email?" syndrome.
The oprahization (i.e., pc, dogmatism, cronyism, etc) of this board aside, it's possible that those who come here for OBJECTIVE and EFFICIENT information (positive or negative) about this cruiseline are thwarted in large measure because a (large) number of (regular) posters communicate on this board when personal emails to one another would be infinitely more appropriate. The inane and banal doesn't belong here. Parenthetically (...and here comes the dipping of the toe in the water of hell) NO ONE cares how many cruises you've taken...or to have to buzz by your cute little (and often endless) list of past water-based-vacations...or whether you and whomever are going to be on the same cruise or be able to meet...all of that is PERSONAL and belongs in PERSONAL emails.
The endemic intolerance here seems due to a few factoids: a few (very few) posters here are sufficiently prolific in posting that entire libraries are being constructed to house their post memoirs (and boards that announce the number of previous posts per individual contribute to this endless and often meaningless drivel)...people are fundamentally insecure and need the reassurance (?identification?) of belonging to something (in this case the "HAL family") because of which posts which denigrate (even if objective) anything about the beloved HAL are to be dissed (or is that "treated with disdain"?)...the combo of prolific writing and being a member of the "HAL family" leads to insularism, intolerance, judgementalism and this particular board.
Solutions?
None that have a snowball's chance of success....just watch...
Toodleoo

[HeatherInFlorida]

[font=Comic Sans MS]Oh, for heaven's sake[img]http://boards2.cruisecritic.com/images/smilies/eek.gif[/img] ... Lighten up!!! Just let it be whatever it is. The majority enjoy it. If you don't, Seadoc, then don't imbibe.[/font]

[uncialman]

I was sipping some coffee, and considering my schedule for this afternoon, when I saw the comments made by Seadoc in his post above.

I am not a frequent poster here, and I am always at a disadvantage to those who "know" one another and the positions "behind" the arguments being presented. When I have a few moments, then, to post something, I am confined to the specific arguments being addressed. Without a "history" it can become difficult to differentiate between a position being advanced and a position being forwarded simply for argument's sake. If I confuse the two, please forgive me:-)

I would agree with Seadoc in some small measure as to what can be described as a pseudo-apologetic used by some who are just ‘fans’ of HAL and refuse to have any meaningful discourse in regards to another posters opinion about a particular cruise or ship. I had viewed a friend of mine who had previously posted his comments on his recent cruise Zuiderdam and was subsuquently thrashed by the HAL apologists without regard to his objective view. While this small amount of discrimination or protectionism exists, it is balanced somewhat by those that compose the “Never Again” threads that are just as meaningless and un-objective. In the HAL board’s defense, however, I would state that the lack of objectivity on this board pales in comparison to that which is found on the Princess forum.

Unfortunately, from here-on you determined to display a rather ad-hominem attitude which cannot be commended at all. The “HAL family” that you speak of has several positive attributes that directly affect the opinions and strategies of those who make the decisions in Seattle. Stated plainly, HAL reads this forum. While it is true that positive tolerance (Definition: I must not only agree that what you say is right, but praise your opinion even though it is contrary to truth (as long as it fits in your grid of what you are tolerant of)) is in itself intolerant of negative tolerance ( Definition: I disagree with you, challenge what you are saying but agree that you have the right to hold your opinion), we must still act civilly and respond to one another in such a fashion in which our voice will be heard and not rejected. It seems as if the objection being forwarded is that the "choice" was simultaneous to, or cotemporaneous with the idea that ‘negativism’ towards aspects of a cruise experience are wrong and I wholeheartedly agree that such a position does not help the purpose of the board as a whole. However, there are many who are presently on this board that have found a loose “communion” with others of like-mind and enjoy corresponding about their journeys. I won’t, for a second, say that they are engaged in “drivel” for the sake of elevating my opinion. I believe that in your rather abrupt conclusion you have committed a logical fallacy while waiting certain replies to your post and pray that you will reconsider the manner in which your objection is promoted.

[xpcdoojk]

[quote name='Seadoc']Yet again, confusion abounds...otherwise rational people suddenly succumb
to the dreaded and incurable "is this a message board or an email?" syndrome.
The oprahization (i.e., pc, dogmatism, cronyism, etc) of this board aside, it's possible that those who come here for OBJECTIVE and EFFICIENT information (positive or negative) about this cruiseline are thwarted in large measure because a (large) number of (regular) posters communicate on this board when personal emails to one another would be infinitely more appropriate. The inane and banal doesn't belong here. Parenthetically (...and here comes the dipping of the toe in the water of hell) NO ONE cares how many cruises you've taken...or to have to buzz by your cute little (and often endless) list of past water-based-vacations...or whether you and whomever are going to be on the same cruise or be able to meet...all of that is PERSONAL and belongs in PERSONAL emails.
The endemic intolerance here seems due to a few factoids: a few (very few) posters here are sufficiently prolific in posting that entire libraries are being constructed to house their post memoirs (and boards that announce the number of previous posts per individual contribute to this endless and often meaningless drivel)...people are fundamentally insecure and need the reassurance (?identification?) of belonging to something (in this case the "HAL family") because of which posts which denigrate (even if objective) anything about the beloved HAL are to be dissed (or is that "treated with disdain"?)...the combo of prolific writing and being a member of the "HAL family" leads to insularism, intolerance, judgementalism and this particular board.
Solutions?
None that have a snowball's chance of success....just watch...
Toodleoo[/QUOTE]

You strike me as a rather unpleasant piece of work, as you say Toodleoo right on off this meaningless board into some sort of unpleasant place that is more to your liking.

jc <---- I have never been on a HAL cruise, but thought that this poster is about as trivial as anything I have read on any forum.

[superstein61]

I believe a lot of what Seadoc says is true, but uncialman makes some good points as well. I would position my view partly between the two

[HeatherInFlorida]

[font=Comic Sans MS][color=indigo]You can all have at it on a thread that had pretty much died a natural death until Seadoc resurrected it.[/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=indigo][/color][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][color=indigo]You know what? I find it unabashed pontificating adnauseum. So have fun with each other.[/color][/font]