Tipping Tour Drivers ??

[janazaz]

"Come on people, is this really right?"

 

Dorothy, I'm a "people", so I'll jump in. First, I appreciate your passion to this topic. However, I'm going to agree with Gunther and Hylas. When you consider drivers charging anywhere from 400-600E for an 8-hour tour that works out to be 50-75E (NOT DOLLARS) per hour, I'd say we have some pre-built "tipping" already included. How many people do you know that make that kind of money (even in CA) for 8-hours?

 

Will I feel like I've "stiffed" someone if I don't add another a 20-25E (not dollars) tip per your suggestion? No. Actually, it would be a minimum of 40-60E added. I'd think adding your suggested amount would be really "stiffing" at only 5%. Will I leave a tip at the end of the trip even though it's not their custom and they consider Americans suckers for doing it? Hmmm, do they have a mini-bar? :)

[Dorothy]

What we are trying to determine, is what is customary? Has it occured to anyone that we have heard from the drivers? I didn't make up what these people wrote to me and the driver who responded directly on this thread. It seems to me that IT IS CUSTOMARY. You are assuming that Gunther is correct. He is from Eastern Europe and lives currently in Barcelona, but does that make him an authority on Italian drivers? Not any more than I'm an authority on what happens on the East Coast in my own country. Arguing this case is not fun for me, but I'm trying to let you all know what the drivers in that country have told me and they had nothing to gain when they did.

 

When I was with one of my drivers, he said when the country changed from the Lira to the Euro, the economy changed for them. He said it was a lot harder for them to make ends meet. People who had it easier were now finding themselves struggling to make ends meet. They have huge expenses just as we do. I'm sure they pay taxes, gas, vehicle repairs, tolls, insurance, etc. and after all that, their paycheck dwindles, just as ours does.

 

People need to decide for themselves. If tipping people who go above and beyond to make my day special is being an American Sucker, then I guess I am happily an American Sucker and I can sleep at night.

 

P.S. Most everyone I know, does make that kind of money and yet they all have bills, too and their money after expenses shrinks.

[sleeples23]

"I'm trying to let you all know what the drivers in that country have told me and they had nothing to gain when they did."

 

They have the tip to gain, of course. As for the amounts everyone is lightly tossing around here, they are not insignificant. I am the appreciative recipient of a surprise cruise, including the tours, from my mother. She has become so frazzled from reading these boards, she has agreed to allow me to pick up the tips. When I calculate 5 excursions at from 500 -700 for the day for the two of us, a 10 - 20% tip adds up to $310-$620 and I would like to feel comfortable with my decision. It would be easy to simply tip the US customary 10 - 20%, since I am not footing the bill for the cruise and excursions, but if it is not customary and the workers are being paid a fair wage without the tip, I would just as soon spend my hard earned money on a wonderful thank you gift for my mom.

I think this argument has solved that dispute. I still do feel awkward about the different policies, but I'm trying to reconcile it internally.

 

I thank you all for a spirited debate... especially Gunther and Dorothy.

 

Donna:o

[Dorothy]

I do want people to just read what has been written on this subject and make their own decisions. Each one of us will be different. I can appreciate how you came to your conclusion.

 

I choose to tip. You do not and want to give your mom a great gift. We are different, but can appreciate each others thought process. Thanks for being nice about our differences.

 

I appreciate Gunther's opinions. I think he has some valuable advice. But, we all do. And who is to say that any one person is right or wrong? I can only go by what I have learned first hand. That is all. It just irks me when people get rude in their comments.

 

Happy cruising. Enjoy your trip. What a wonderful mom you have.

[sleeples23]

Dorothy,

 

Yes it is a generous gift and I do have a wonderful mom. She feels like she couldn't take this trip without me, so I guess it's a reciprocal thing. I, like you, am so accustomed to "our way" of doing things, that I don't believe I can go on a tour and not tip. I am not a world traveler and this is my first trip to Europe, and the first time I'm hearing about how different the cultures are. I am thankful for all of Gunthers input for he has educated me a lot. A few of our tours are with other passengers that we've joined in with, so of course I am not in a position to adjust the tipping policy for those trips. Whatever their group decides, I will put in our share happily. On my own excursions, I will simply be aware of the different policy and probably tip less than I normally would and not feel badly about it.

 

I thank you and Gunther for your spirited debate for it has enlightened me a great deal.

 

Thanks again,

Donna:o

[CruisinGerman]

Donna,

 

I hope you have a wonderful trip and wanted to thank you for your kind words.

 

Just be as kind to the service workers here in Europe with whom you come into contact as you are being here on this board, and you will be treated with the service you deserve and expect--and with no need to throw your money at them to receive that service.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[PhillynBill]

I will still tip but after reading Gunther's advice it will be in keeping up with their customs and not ours esp. after hearing from my neighbor who just returned from a 3 month sabbitical in Rome... (and has been there 4 other times)

 

He said Europeans do not tip or are expected to --- He said if you feel you must tip - leave the CHANGE at dinner while taxi's, limos and tour guides should only be tipped 2-3 Euros per person...

 

Of course the tour guides would say to tip them DUH not a brainer

 

If you tipped 20% on a 600E tour (which would be around 790.00 US dollars--- now add another 165.00 or so for a tip that's ALOT of money for 8 hours --dont you think some of that is service charge .. In any case everyone will do what they feel is right for them..

 

On the other hand I heard from some friends with buisnesses in NYC who said Europeans do not tip acc to our custom but theirs and that doesnt go over too big for the staff.......

 

Dorothy--- This is not being critical but just curious why you need to keep validating your reasoning re: overtipping ...

 

 

Everyone have a safe and wonderful trip

 

Philly

[PhillynBill]

Italy

Tipping practices vary depending on where you are. Italians tip smaller amounts in small cities and towns, often not at all in cafés and taxis north of Rome. The following guidelines apply in major cities.

In restaurants a 15% service charge is usually added to the total; it's customary to give the waiter an additional 5%-10%, depending on the service and on the quality of the meal.

Charges for service are included in all hotel bills, but smaller tips to staff members are appreciated. In general, in a $$ hotel, chambermaids should be given about €.75 per day, or about €4-€5 a week; bellhops should get €.50-€1.

Tip a minimum of €.50 for room service and valet service. Tip breakfast waiters €.25 per day per table (at end of stay). These amounts should be increased by 40% in reasonably expensive hotels, doubled in luxury hotels.

Give the concierge about 15% of the bill for services. Tip doormen about €.25 for calling a cab.

Taxi drivers are happy with 5%-10%, although Italians rarely tip them.

Porters at railroad stations and airports charge a fixed rate per suitcase; tip an additional €.25 per person, more if the porter has been very helpful.

Tip service-station attendants €.50 if they have been especially helpful. Tip guides about €1 per person for a half-day tour, more if they are very good.

 

 

 

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[CruisinGerman]

To sum up, the only tipping I have ever witnessed (and I, myself, practice) in Continental Europe is as follows:

 

Round up your restaurant or bar bill to the next highest euro or two, if you choose to do so, and you will not be frowned upon if you don't.

 

Round up your taxi fare to the next highest euro.

 

Tip a bellman (or similar situation in which physical labor is actually performed) about 50 cents to one euro per bag (and only because he is performing physical labor, not because he doesn't earn a proper wage).

 

Absolutely none of these 15% - 20% - 25% tips you folks have in the United States.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[Dorothy]

Hi Philly,

 

To answer your question....I'm not in favor of overtipping. 20% is extreme. In other countries where I have traveled with groups, we tipped maybe an additional $5 per person. In my case in Italy, since it was just me and my husband, we tipped and additional $40-$50. I figured had we shared our tour with others, then that is what they would have gotten for a group. I hired them specifically for us only, so we can enjoy the day seeing what we wanted and at our own pace. I didn't think what I gave them was excessive, but I wanted to give them a token of our appreciation for making our day so special. Keep in mind, I did not tip wait staff and taxi's in all the European Countries. I just rounded up to the nearest Euro. I was and still am trying to do what is expected to be the norm.

 

Perhaps, this hits a little personally. My very first job was a wage plus tip job. I always provided exceptional service because I knew I was striving for the best tip I could earn. When I was not tipped, I felt hurt and wondered what I could possibly have done wrong to warrant being snubbed. I remember to this day and I refuse to do that to someone else, if a tip is expected. Luckily, I am much more educated and have a very well paying career which allows me to travel when and where I want. Even when staying in a hotel for a few days, I will track down my maid and give her a tip. Maybe not a lot of money, but $20 goes a long way in making someone feel appreciated and put a smile on their face. I just prefer to spread a little kindness.

 

I'm simple spent on this subject and have work to do. So, my best to all in this regards. Do what you feel is right. Thanks Gunther for your imput and lively debate. I will see you on other threads.....

[sleeples23]

Hi all... just one more quick, probably silly to most, question.

 

What denominations does the Euro come in? Is is only bills, hence the rounding up or is there change denominations as well?

 

Thanks,

Donna:o

[hylasgirl]

The waitstaff here in UTAH is not paid under the regular Federal minimum wage and neither are a lot of other places.... BUT, my only point was to agree with Gunther that tipping is basically manditory here in the states, not to discuss the tipping of wait staff. I have been a waitress on and off longer than I care to discuss, and we are not getting paid the full $5.15 an hour... we are expected to make minimum wage with our tips... if we do not make at least minimum wage, then the company has to make up the difference... which is an easy statement for them, because we make the $5.15 an hour, but it is still dependant on people tipping to keep us at minimum wage or above. And I am writing from KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE. Maybe I don't work in California, but I do KNOW that we are not being paid minimum wage here in UTAH at ANY restaurant. We make minimum wage, but we are not paid minimum wage by our employer.

 

And I definitely won't feel like I have stiffed my driver in Italy when I pay him 550 euros for driving us around Rome for the day... I am not having him set anything up before hand... and I am not even purchasing a tour through him... I am simply hiring a driver and the 550 euros is what I am paying him. It is not for you to say that any of us will be "stiffing them". AND of course they had something to gain by telling you that they appreciate and accept tips.

[canadiansnowbird]

And I definitely won't feel like I have stiffed my driver in Italy when I pay him 550 euros for driving us around Rome for the day... I am not having him set anything up before hand... and I am not even purchasing a tour through him... I am simply hiring a driver and the 550 euros is what I am paying him. It is not for you to say that any of us will be "stiffing them". AND of course they had something to gain by telling you that they appreciate and accept tips.

 

Ditto for me.....My sentiments exactly

 

Snowbird

[CruisinGerman]

Dear friends:

 

When you are travelling in Europe, please don't feel you are "stiffing" someone by not leaving a tip. As I said, tips are not expected or required here. And nobody in Europe earns less than a legal wage and is expected to make up the difference in tips. In Europe, everyone earns a full wage with full benefits -- just like nurses, teachers, accountants, etc.

 

In New York City, if you entered an expensive restaurant as a party of six and spent $600 total, you would be expected to leave a MINIMUM tip of $90, and most people would probably leave a lot more.

 

In Europe, if you dine in an expensive restaurant as a party of six and spend €600 total, you can leave a euro or two on the table, or leave nothing at all, and you will be treated just as royally. Tips are not expected, ever.

 

And the same customs holds true in cafeterias, local taverns, inexpensive restaurants, taxis, drivers, etc.

 

Happy travelling to all.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[carlmm]

Hi all... just one more quick, probably silly to most, question.

 

What denominations does the Euro come in? Is is only bills, hence the rounding up or is there change denominations as well?

 

There are coins and bills.

Coins are valued 1, 2, 5, 10, 20 and 50 Cents and 1 and 2 Euro. (100 Cents = 1 Euro). There are higher value collector coins.

Bills' values start at 5 Euro.

[zaandam_2]

cruisingerman - thanks for your insights. this clears a few things up for me. this will be my 1st trip to europe, and i believe part of traveling is learning, and abiding by, the local customs. when in rome...

 

as for the US service industry, i was a waiter for many many years. servers receive $2.15 per hour. on top of that, they are required to pay a minimum of 8% income tax on their sales and/or 100% of the tip left on credit cards. most receive no benefits whatsoever.

[Ine]

<<<In Europe, if you dine in an expensive restaurant as a party of six and spend €600 total, you can leave a euro or two on the table, or leave nothing at all, and you will be treated just as royally. Tips are not expected, ever.

And the same customs holds true in cafeterias, local taverns, inexpensive restaurants, taxis, drivers, etc.>>>

 

I donot completely agree with the above postings. It is fine to give 1/2 Euros in cafetarias, inexpensive restaurants etc., but it really depends on the bill. Often small tips are expected, and by far not that high as in the US. Service charge of abt. 15% is included.

IHowever think it very cheap to leave a euro or two if you have a bill of Eur.600.- Never will I tip that little, maybe only if the service was lousy..

On a bill like that I suggest at least Eur.10/15 at least as normal.

 

I think it must been seen as a "thank you" for good service. People certainly never will be insulted by that.

[Dorothy]

Wow, thanks, finally someone who feels like I do.

 

To all those who make less than the federal minimum wage. I'm sorry. I had no idea. You should work in California. We don't do that here. Soon, the minimum will be $8 per hour, plus tips. Also, we don't get monitored here on tips. You only report what you want. If you collected $100 for your shift, then claim only $20. The federal government doesn't know what you get in tips and the employers don't monitor them. I'm sure glad, I'm not in that industry any more.

[CruisinGerman]

The Netherlands is somewhat different from the countries I refer to in all of my posts.

 

If the Dutch person is travelling anywhere in France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and many of the Scandinavian countries, no tipping is expected or required at all.

 

In fact, Dorothy, if you travel to Spain and dine in either the cafeteria or the fancy restaurant section of any EL CORTE INGLES department store, the following is clearly written on the menu:

 

TO OUR FOREIGN VISITORS: TIPS ARE NOT NECESSARY IN SPAIN AND WE REMIND YOU THAT WHEN DINING AT ANY RESTAURANT AT EL CORTE INGLES, THEY ARE NOT PERMITTED

 

This past weekend I entertained a fellow group of former diplomats at a very well-known, world-class restaurant in Paris, at a cost of more than 200 euros per person, and nobody left a tip and no tip was expected.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[CruisinGerman]

Wow, thanks, finally someone who feels like I do.

 

To all those who make less than the federal minimum wage. I'm sorry. I had no idea. You should work in California. We don't do that here. Soon, the minimum will be $8 per hour, plus tips. Also, we don't get monitored here on tips. You only report what you want. If you collected $100 for your shift, then claim only $20. The federal government doesn't know what you get in tips and the employers don't monitor them. I'm sure glad, I'm not in that industry any more.

 

Dorothy, a few years ago I was a passive investor in franchised restaurant chains in California (which is one of the reasons why I go to Los Angeles and San Francisco frequently).

 

To the best of my knowledge, in California, when a tip is left on a credit card, that tip is automatically attributed to the waiter's salary for reporting and tax purposes. Furthermore, when no tip is left on a credit card, there is a presumption that a cash tip has been left, and 15% of a dining check is also attributed to the waiter (even though the waiter may have received 30%, or perhaps 10% or 0%). Perhaps things are different in a small, mom-and-pop operation. But, in general, gone are the days in the United States where a waiter made lots of money in cash tips that he or she didn't have to report to the tax authorities.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[Dorothy]

Hi Gunther,

 

I think everyone keeps missing, that I totally agree with you in regards to tipping in restaurants. It is understood to just round up to the nearest Euro. When I was in Spain, I did not tip. Only rounded up and that included taxi's, etc.

 

I really do try to adhere to the customs of each country and I am glad that you are voicing your opinion. But here's a thought that may not have come to mind....is it possible that with the change in currency in Italy, that people are finding it difficult now to make ends meet and so the tour guides/drivers are trying to change the system that perhaps was in place before? If after charging their usual fee and they deduct all of their business expenses (Guessing at taxes, gas, repairs, insurance, etc.) and they don't have a lot left over for living expenses, perhaps this is why they are trying harder to get the tip? When I was there, I couldn't believe how expensive everything was. If you took their wage and brought it here to the U.S., they would have plenty of money left for living expenses and live well because the cost of living is less. I did not expect prices to be so inflated and after what I thought would be plenty to last thru the week, ended up hitting the ATM's twice, so I wouldn't run short.

 

Another thing that people keep saying is 600+ Euro for tours. I didn't pay that much. My tours were around 400-500 Euro. My tips were not overtly extravagant either. I did not give 20%. I gave an extra $50US. Which, once it reverts to the Euro really isn't a lot. I, also, don't see what is wrong with giving a little more to show appreciation. I prefer to make someones day, not ruin it.

 

Recent posts have not been too kind and I don't understand that. I like to make people happy and feel good. Just because you and I don't agree on a subject, is that a reason for people to turn nasty? But, I guess the subject of money will do that. Growing up, my family was dirt poor, but I have worked hard to make a good living and because I am now more fortunate I choose to give back. Tipping for jobs well done is one way. Giving to charitable causes is another. I am grateful that I am able to do that. I am disturbed to learn that other parts of my country pay so poorly. But everyone born into this country is given the same chances. (At least, I'd like to think so). I came from a poor family and I'm a minority, but I have worked hard for what I have and I have not forgotten where I came from. Because of this I share and make other people happy when I can. End of story.

 

Like I have said before...I am glad you are giving your perspective on the subject. We don't have to agree on everything. I just wanted to show both sides of the coin and let people decide for themselves what they think is right.

[CruisinGerman]

Dorothy and friends:

 

If you read back to some of our original and earlier interactions, I have always said you were an admirable person -- there is no question about that.

 

I would like to propose to all of you another sub-topic, which is very much related to this whole tipping matter of drivers and tour guides, anyway.

 

I have been reading that all of you are paying 500-600 euros and more for your tour trips to Rome, Florence/Pisa, South of France, etc.

 

I think the drivers and tour companies are purposely overcharging Americans for these services. So, dear friends, since you are being overcharged anyway, please don't even begin to question the "need" to give them a tip.

 

A European would never pay those prices. They are considered exorbitant. I have just checked my records on our recent Mediterranean cruises and I have never paid more than 200-300 euros for a Mercedes or equivalent and driver, and a full day's itinerary to places like Rome, Pisa/Florence and the South of France. And these were all licensed, reputable receptive tour companies that allowed me to pay with my American Express card.

 

Dear friends, the tipping issue aside, don't let yourselves get ripped off (either via solicited tips or outright over-pricing) while you are visiting other countries with different languages and cultures.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

[Ine]

The Netherlands is somewhat different from the countries I refer to in all of my posts.

 

If the Dutch person is travelling anywhere in France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium and many of the Scandinavian countries, no tipping is expected or required at all.

 

In fact, Dorothy, if you travel to Spain and dine in either the cafeteria or the fancy restaurant section of any EL CORTE INGLES department store, the following is clearly written on the menu:

 

TO OUR FOREIGN VISITORS: TIPS ARE NOT NECESSARY IN SPAIN AND WE REMIND YOU THAT WHEN DINING AT ANY RESTAURANT AT EL CORTE INGLES, THEY ARE NOT PERMITTED

 

This past weekend I entertained a fellow group of former diplomats at a very well-known, world-class restaurant in Paris, at a cost of more than 200 euros per person, and nobody left a tip and no tip was expected.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

 

I hope you donot take this personal.....But I would feel ashamed to be part of a group of diplomats (who have a good salary) NOT giving any tips. At least the person organising this lunch should have done it. On a bill of Eur.200.- at least Eur. 10.- would have been normal.

I feel sorry for the staff in that restaurant....

Also the restaurant in Corte Ingles is different from a normal restaurant since it is in a and belongs to that department store, so the staff will probably be paid the same as salesstaff. I can imagine that to avoid problems between the staff that rule applies.

In the restaurants of "Bijenkorf" and other deparment stores in Amsterdam no tips are given since it is self-service...

 

I cannot understand why you think a dutch person is somewhat different from other european countries. ...?I can assure you that many europeans (not just the dutch) tip if applicable. Again not the US tips (which I do when I am in the USA), but a few Euros (or more), depending on the bill or servicelevel.

[zaandam_2]

cruisingerman - would you care to recommend any drivers?

 

i've been appalled at the prices for excursions. the 500 - 600 euros only makes sense if you can get a group together. i have been able to join a few groups via our roll call.

[CruisinGerman]

Ine:

 

All Service People in the countries I mention are paid full wages -- just like sales staff, teachers, accountants, nurses, etc., and no tips are expected.

 

I am very happy that you know as much as I do about the top restaurants in a city such as Paris, where I have lived for the last 35 years.

 

Please take the liberty of calling or sending an e-mail to restaurants such as Jules Verne, Alain Ducasse, Lucas Carton (now called by the name of its owner, which I do not recall at the moment), Taillevent, and I promise they will tell you that tipping is not necessary.

 

You may then try the same exercise at restaurants such as El Bulli in Cataonia, Arola (hotel Arts Barcelona), La Broche (Madrid).

 

While you're at it -- send an e-mail to the famous Michelin star restaurant inside the St. Regis Grand Hotel in Rome -- another of my frequent haunts and yes, they too, a Starwood Hotel, will tell you that tipping in the restaurant is not necessary.

 

And yes, El Corte Inglés takes it far enough to say that it is NOT PERMITTED. I know for a fact that the waiters and waitresses at any EL CORTE INGLES restaurant or cafeteria risks being fired on the spot for accepting tips. And that rule goes for both the cafeteria section, as well as its fine dining restaurant.

 

While you say that The Netherlands does have tipping, I don't recall the practice being any different from the rest of Europe the few times I have been to Amsterdam.

 

TO TIP OR NOT TO TIP IS NOT NECESSARILY THE QUESTION --

 

The question is to be aware of a local custom and not get ripped off by throwing out 30% tips as many Americans are accustomed to doing in a country where there is little, or no, tipping--which happens to coincide with most of Continental Europe.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta