Air France, Delta, Air West, or KLM??

[Michael Kays]

We will be on a med cruise June 2007 and need airfare from San Francisco Ca to Venice, return Barcelona to San Francisco. Google searches have come up with the above airlines. We will be flying cheap seats:(..Any suggestions? Airlines to avoid?

[caviargal]

Yes, run do not walk, away from AF and CDG airport. I have flown through/to there about 8 times over the past five years and have to have anything resembling a positive experience.

 

KLM on the other hand, uses Amsterdam as a hub. It is clean, efficient and staffed with individuals who, IME, do not stick their noses in the air as do the AF representatives.

 

Save yourself the stress and choose KLM.

[critterchick]

The only time my luggage has ever been delayed was on AF through CDG, so I would agree w/Caviargal on that point. I haven't flown KLM, but most international airlines treat their passengers better than any US airline, so I'd probably give them the nod over Delta. I've never heard of Air West, so that would give me pause.

[threecats]

I agree with caviargal. Amsterdam is a nice clean airport as are the KLM air crafts. Air France is very uncomfortable and their airport in Paris (CDG) is a nightmare.

 

One thing I have learned is, that it's always an advantage to use an airline that is "at home" wherever you depart for the overseas flight. So, for instance, I would choose Northwest over KLM going to Europe, but KLM over Northwest coming home. The reason is, that, if there is any problems with your air craft or crew, you have a much better chance to get a replacement. I once got stuck in Amsterdam for 24 hours going to Detroit on a NWA flight with engine problems. The engine was fixed after 4 hours, but the crew wasn't allowed to fly anymore due to the long delay. Had the flight been executed by KLM, they might have been able to get us another crew, but NWA had only that one in the area.

[FlyerTalker]

Lots of different issues here. A couple of them for your consideration.

 

Only DL would have a non-stop from the USA to VCE and back from BCN. So any other choice would involve a European connection, either in Paris or Amsterdam. Your choice of connecting city.

 

A flight from SFO-AMS-VCE would have a longer international segment than breaking the flight at JFK. But it would be less flight time in total, since it's closer to a great circle than going first to New York. So you have to decide what your preference is - a 6 hour flight to JFK, followed by 9 hours to VCE OR 11 hours to Europe and a 2 hour flight to VCE.

 

Flying from Europe to SFO non-stop would have you doing customs/immigration at SFO rather than JFK on the return.

 

AF inflight service is good, KL is inconsistent and DL is probably a notch below them both. OTOH, many consider CDG to be the modern-day version of the Bastille. AF ground service is an oxymoron.

 

AMS is an easy airport to negotiate (though it is large), and they have a branch of the national museum in the terminal (with about 10 works of art, including at least one "old master", on a rotating basis). There's also a casino with very bad rules at 21. If you have a longish (4+hrs) connection at AMS, it's easy to take the train into downtown Amsterdam for a short visit.

 

If taking AF or KL out of SFO, know that you have less protection if there happens to be a cancellation/delay due to a mechanical. More options out of JFK.

 

All will have similar coach seat configurations, but some research online can determine exact seat dimensions/pitch. AF will have in-seat IFE, DL will have pull-down video screens, and KL I can't say.

 

If flying in coach, my preference would be to take either AF or KL from SFO to Europe. You won't have to endure DL's domestic coach non-service, won't have to transit JFK, and won't have longer flight times. I would make sure that I have plenty of connection time in either CDG or AF (necessary at CDG, desirable in AMS (things to do in the airport, shopping - including a diamond store). Of course, price, schedules and other personal choices will affect your eventual decision.

 

And to echo another poster -- what is Air West?? The last time that name was used was 1980, when Hughes AirWest was sold to Republic. AirWest was the regional airline formed by the merger of Bonanza, Pacific and West Coast in 1968, renamend Hughes AirWest in 1970 and sold in 1980. I doubt if they are flying to Europe.

[FlyerTalker]

I once got stuck in Amsterdam for 24 hours going to Detroit on a NWA flight with engine problems. The engine was fixed after 4 hours, but the crew wasn't allowed to fly anymore due to the long delay. Had the flight been executed by KLM, they might have been able to get us another crew, but NWA had only that one in the area.

Given the partnership and codeshares between NW and KL, I would have asked the gate agent to reroute me on a KL flight. Now, the agent would not likely be offering that to a whole DC10 load of pax over the PA system, but if you went to ask for the reroute - knew what flights were available and had a ready plan - I would bet you could get the reroute with a polite request if there were any seats available. It's in the airline's interest to get you moving.

Tip for the day: Know what alternatives are available to get you from Point A to Point B if your scheduled flights are cancelled/delayed. And if there is a line a mile long at the counter, use your cell phone and call the airline direct. I've done this onboard a plane as we were heading back to the terminal due to a mechanical problem discovered during taxiing. I had a new flight arranged as I was walking out the jetway. (luggage was a separate issue and I knew I would have that problem, but that worked out afterall)

[threecats]

Given the partnership and codeshares between NW and KL, I would have asked the gate agent to reroute me on a KL flight.

 

Unfortunately, mine was the last flight of the day going from AMS to anywhere in the US. Another lesson I learned then: leave as early as possible, even if it means getting up at 4 am.

[KLLund]

We were on a cruise where my luggage didn't arrive .. on Delta .. the bartender on the Millenium told us .. well of course .. You flew Don't Expect Luggage To Arrive airline ... KLM is great IMHO

[Desert Cruisers]

You can find passenger opinions about specific airlines at www.airlinequality.com.

[Michael Kays]

We will be on a med cruise June 2007 and need airfare from San Francisco Ca to Venice, return Barcelona to San Francisco. Google searches have come up with the above airlines. We will be flying cheap seats:(..Any suggestions? Airlines to avoid?

 

 

sorry for the error, that was UY.S.Airways, they stop in Philadelphia, PA..Anyone good or bad?

[FlyerTalker]

sorry for the error, that was UY.S.Airways, they stop in Philadelphia, PA..Anyone good or bad?

Take the comments about going DL via JFK and repeat for US. They may even be a step below DL. OTOH, PHL will be likely be an easier transfer than JFK. There's a thread on here talking about connecting in PHL - take a look at recent threads to find it.

[Michael Kays]

Reading airport terminals reviews Amsterdam sounds pretty good..only negative I can see is smoking. Are the planes into and out of Europe smoke free? It looks like SFO to Amsterdam, then to Venice, same return

[Ine]

All planes in Europe are smoke-free. Only at some airports there are designated spots where smoking is allowed.

 

More info about Amsterdam airport: http://www.schiphol.nl/

You can choose your language to read it.

 

If you make reservations, check that the flight is operated by KLM.

 

Some flights carry KLM flightnumbers but are operated by NW.

[Michael Kays]

I did notice on nwa.com that some KLM flights were designated by NW..are they partners?

Also on the KLM flights, both going to Venice from SFO, and coming from Barcelona to SFO there were no icons to reserve seat assignments?

I hate to waste a whole day traveling, and KLM will not get me to Venice until 4:50 PM next day, whereas Delta will have me there by next day at 11:30 A.M.

 

I just am leary of Delta. they do have the best price and the best itinerary. But i hate the way they change itinerary in you without even notifying you.

[threecats]

I did notice on nwa.com that some KLM flights were designated by NW..are they partners?

Also on the KLM flights, both going to Venice from SFO, and coming from Barcelona to SFO there were no icons to reserve seat assignments?

 

Yes, NWA and KLM are code share partners, i.e. many flights will have a NWA and a KLM flight number, as both airlines are selling seats. You should see during booking which airline is supplying the aircraft and crew for each flight. Many domestic airlines have that, e.g. United is partnering with Lufthansa on flights to/from Germany.

 

I have often seen it that I could not reserve seats on flights executed by a European (KLM/Lufthansa) airline, when booking from their US partner's (NWA/UA) web site. You should get a seat assignment shortly after booking, though. If your FF account reflects your seat preference, they'll try to accomodate that, if they can.

[Jana White]

I will NEVER fly Air France if I have to change planes in Paris. Charles de Gaulle is a nightmare. I have flown in several times and never had a pleasant experience. My two biggest complaints are poor signage with no help from ground agents and crowds instead of lines. Any of your other choices are fine.

[greatam]

sorry for the error, that was UY.S.Airways, they stop in Philadelphia, PA..Anyone good or bad?

 

US Airways and Philly is a VERY bad combination for connections. LOTS of lost luggage, delayed luggage. Baggage handler union problems and poor management. IF at all possible, stay away from connections at PHL.

[FlyerTalker]

I have often seen it that I could not reserve seats on flights executed by a European (KLM/Lufthansa) airline, when booking from their US partner's (NWA/UA) web site. You should get a seat assignment shortly after booking, though. If your FF account reflects your seat preference, they'll try to accomodate that, if they can.

Many European airlines will NOT do advanced seat assignment for intra-European flights. Some of this is because they have a "flexible" area for business class, with moveable dividers depending on how many pax are in biz. Other reasons include overall company policy and a desire to keep things fluid for equipment changes as loads change.

 

You can get intercontinental assignments directly from the airline.

[ratherBcruzin]

Given the partnership and codeshares between NW and KL,

FTer-- you forgot to mention that beacuse Northwest, KLM, Air France, and Delta are all partners, the OP could be booking a codeshare on one of these airlines that actually is operated by another (meaning you could book a KLM flight that ends up being an Air France flight connecting in CDG), so if you want to avoid a certain airline, double check and read the fine print.

I've gotten some really good seat assignments TATL on European airlines, and the luck of the draw inside Europe--I don't think its that bad of a deal, CDG/AMS/FRA--VCE isn't that far, and you could end up with better seats than expected. Just try to remember the days not so long ago where you wouldn't get your seat assignment until you arrived to the airport.

[FlyerTalker]

FTer-- you forgot to mention that beacuse Northwest, KLM, Air France, and Delta are all partners, the OP could be booking a codeshare on one of these airlines that actually is operated by another (meaning you could book a KLM flight that ends up being an Air France flight connecting in CDG), so if you want to avoid a certain airline, double check and read the fine print.

So very true. Always be certain who is operating the equipment. A good rule of thumb is that if your flight number is something over 2000, it's being operated by someone else - either a regional partner or a code-share alliance partner. Of course, all airlines are different, but it's a pretty good guide.

 

I've gotten some really good seat assignments TATL on European airlines, and the luck of the draw inside Europe--I don't think its that bad of a deal, CDG/AMS/FRA--VCE isn't that far, and you could end up with better seats than expected. Just try to remember the days not so long ago where you wouldn't get your seat assignment until you arrived to the airport.

I remember that. To go off-topic (a frequent CC phenomenon, I gather): I used to fly out of LAX in the late 70's, almost always on Western. Those were the days with the seat assignments at the day of travel at the airport. I got to be good friends with the ladies who worked WA's Horizon Club - and I always found out who was working on the next Monday morning. Left them a message telling my flight number and asking for them to get me a good seat and they always did it for me. Of course, I was very appreciative and showed it with little presents from time to time and at holidays. The Only Way to Fly!!

[ratherBcruzin]

A good rule of thumb is that if your flight number is something over 2000, it's being operated by someone else - either a regional partner or a code-share alliance partner. Of course, all airlines are different, but it's a pretty good guide.

 

True, but I'd say over 3000 would tend to be codeshare/etc. from my experience. AA renumbered flights to/from DFW and LAX, DFW and ORD are 2300's 2400's and they are all mainline. BA's LGW-US flights are mainly 2000, 2100.

[FlyerTalker]

True, but I'd say over 3000 would tend to be codeshare/etc. from my experience. AA renumbered flights to/from DFW and LAX, DFW and ORD are 2300's 2400's and they are all mainline. BA's LGW-US flights are mainly 2000, 2100.

The larger the airline, the more likely they are to have their own flights numbered into the 2000's. AA and BA would be two good examples. So in those cases, you are correct. I wanted to be on the conservative side - better to be concerned about a codeshare/regional and be pleasantly surprised to find yourself on a mainline aircraft!!

 

It the number is in the 8000 or 9000 range, for sure you aren't on their own metal.

[Michael Kays]

the flight numbers are:

SFO to AMS KLM 606

AMS to VCE KLM 1655

BCN to AMS KLM 1664

AMS to SFO KLM 606

 

looks like all KLM flights.. I think I'm going to book it..can I cotact KLM for seat assignments? It's a pretty good price, $1,272 PP

[FlyerTalker]

the flight numbers are:

SFO to AMS KLM 606

AMS to VCE KLM 1655

BCN to AMS KLM 1664

AMS to SFO KLM 606

looks like all KLM flights.. I think I'm going to book it..can I cotact KLM for seat assignments? It's a pretty good price, $1,272 PP

 

IIRC, KL is like NW in that seat assignments are only available 90 days out. However, since KL is now a part of AF, their systems may have changed. I have not flown KL since the merger with AF, so I can't attest to the current situation, just what it used to be. You can always call KL at their 800 number and get the definitive answer.

[Michael Kays]

I contacted KLM/NW and seat assignments are not available until 90 days from departure?