Parkwest Takes Over Rotterdam's Crow's Nest - Denies Passengers Access

[twinkletoes4445]

Twinkletoes..Apparently you did not completely understand my post..I gave examples of two occurrences which took place here in Florida..Never stated that I was at either the resort or the hotel in Jacksonville..Even though I'm retired I still, make it my business to keep track of what's going on in the travel field..

 

Thank you for your offer of your Travel Agent, which I will respectfully decline as, believe that I'm perfectly capable of handling both our business travel & vacation travel plans..I do my homework.. But any Travel Professional who guarantees that an occurrence such as this will not happen on any one of your cruises, your resort vacations, or your hotels is not being completely truthful..

 

Betty

 

P.S. Don't understand your statement that HAL is known as the "Nursing Home on the high seas".:( .On all of our longer HAL cruises, the average age of the passengers have been around 50... On our earlier 7-10 day cruises, the average ages were even younger..Was your cruise any different or did your Travel Agent tell you this?

 

Our travel agent didn't guarantee us anything of the sort. However, she's a wise woman and she knows us well (which makes her worth her weight in gold). When we book a vacation, be it in a private home, condo, or at a resort, she makes sure we have plenty of options for things to do at our disposal, and we've been fortunate that she's been successful. She covers all the bases...which is why she's so darn successful!

 

The term "Nursing Home on the High Seas" has come from most everyone I know. It's too bad that HAL has that reputation, but it is what it is. And I know HAL is working to move away from that label. And if you don't know what I mean, or you haven't heard this phrase before...I don't know what to say. There are differences between different cruiselines...they do cater, to a certain extent, to certain segments of the population. Sure, you'll see a variety of people on all cruises...but it's a good TA that knows her clients. I'd hate to think a TA put someone who's looking to dance the night away, on a HAL cruise...because the ship we were on wasn't like that. And there are many other lines that allow passengers to experience that. But again, that's where a good TA comes in...knowing the market and knowing the options that would be the best match for those clients.

 

And actually, cruising with mostly elderly people appeals to us (now). We like things quiet, which is why we chose HAL (but after reading the President's Day cruise on the Noordam thread, I suppose I'd alter my opinion a bit).

 

On our cruise, there were very few people under 50. A smattering of kids, I think I saw maybe 10 total...babies thru teenagers. The largest group by far was the 70 and up age group. The 50-70 group was next in numbers, but paled in comparison with the older group. In all honesty, I've never seen so many different types of walkers and wheelchairs as we saw on our cruise. And this did present a problem when we were on HAL shore excursions...all those wheelchairs and walkers had to be loaded off the tour buses, and it was SLOW going.

 

That said, we had a great cruise, and none of this mattered to us. We're not into the "hairy chest" contest, or anything like that, but when we were younger, we probably would have enjoyed a little bit more lively ship. So HAL would not have been our choice. And our kids would have probably tossed us overboard if we had them on this cruise. They would have been bored to death. But that's just us.

 

So maybe you've not been on a HAL cruise that was predominately people over 70, but I have, and to be honest, my friends that have traveled HAL have had the same experience. It may be the luck of the draw when it comes to the age range on a cruise...but this has been our experience.

 

MY TA has always been upfront about her observations concerning our travel arrangements, and she's always been right on the mark. She's awesome.

 

And when we do land vacations, we always have many options. If by chance someone does reserve a particular area (but we've not ever run into this), we can just hop in our rental car and look for other things to do...or even walk to something else, depending on what we're looking for and how close it is. And we'd never plunk ourselves into a resort that's isolated. So we don't have to worry about not being able to do things.

 

On a ship...you're limited to the ship (well, except for the ports). So that's the issue. And finding out once you're on the ship that this is going on, what are you going to do? The backstroke to another ship?

[twinkletoes4445]

Ditto !

 

They are really digging themselves into a hole with this. :eek:

 

And at the rate they are going, they are going to need a bigger shovel...and soon. :)

[twinkletoes4445]

In regard to the comparison with land-based resorts, I do recall on at least one occasion going to a hotel website and seeing that they were offering "reduced prices during construction." Now THAT sounds like a win-win proposition to me.

 

So here's an idea (Seattle, are you listening?). If HAL really MUST close off the CN in order to book a lucrative group (which I doubt, but let's assume it's true), they could advertise "reduced prices due to group booking" on that cruise. True, in the short run, this would mean they'd lose some revenue from individually booked cabins being sold at a discount. BUT - think of the goodwill they would acquire from being honest about the situation - AND - the reduced prices would probably attract some pax who otherwise could not or would not have booked that cruise, while the revenue from the group booking (including perhaps a charge for the exclusive use of the CN) would mean the cruise would still operate at a profit. At least some of those pax would likely be new to HAL and/or to cruising. After HAL uses reduced prices to lure those folks in, at least some of them will enjoy the experience come back again - perhaps on a cruise where they pay full fare but get to use the CN this time. Long term, I think there would be enough of an upside to this marketing strategy to more than make up for the short-term revenue sacrifice.

 

 

I think that's a great idea!!!

 

Sometimes these big businesses just don't use logic like this. They try and "slip" as much past us as they can. And only when people start howling do they make changes. And many times they don't.

[fb0075]

WOW DAK---DITTO!!!

 

 

You go man---

FRANK

[Jade13]

In the scenario you described...HAL is the dumb one, and the buyer is the smart one.

 

It would be much more profitable to sell me the suite, than to comp it to the PW buy buyer (if we go by what you are saying, and the suite would have cost more).

 

The only way it would be better for HAL to comp a suite would be if the PW customer paid more for the artwork than the cost of the suite, otherwise why not just sell the suite to a paying customer?

 

Comps usually are given when people excede the cost of whatever is being given to them.

 

 

Yes, the idea is for HAL to make money, but I'd bet their must be at least one VIP who has it figured out so they get the artwork along with the cost of the cruise. Of course they have to deal with the auctineer sidekick (The Sales guy) pressuring them all week to buy more art, which is why I say this is not how I would want to spend my vacation time.

[twinkletoes4445]

Yes, the idea is for HAL to make money, but I'd bet their must be at least one VIP who has it figured out so they get the artwork along with the cost of the cruise. Of course they have to deal with the auctineer sidekick (The Sales guy) pressuring them all week to buy more art, which is why I say this is not how I would want to spend my vacation time.

 

No doubt there has to be a VIP somewhere getting a free ride.

 

Like you, I would have no desire dealing with this on my vacation.

[Odd Ball]

Wow. Looks like Hal has done this before. I was looking for groups and came across a thread where Sail7Seas was denied use of the Crows Nest 8 out of 10 nights.

 

sail7seas vbmenu_register("postmenu_2383967", true);

Charter Member - 5,000+ Club

Join Date: Aug 2000

Posts: 14,669

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Florida Lady

Large affinity groups can be a problem. We experienced a nightmare in Feb 1987 when we sailed on the Noordam. It took us many years to again sail on HAL. The ship was filled with Mercedes Auto dealership owners and their families. They were the most annoying people I have even met. I vowed that because of them I would NEVER buy a Mercedes no matter how much money I made in my life. Many of the public rooms were closed for their personal events during the day and in the evening. They saved masses of chairs by the pools. They were the most poorly behaved people I have ever met on any vacation. In recent cruises I have seen some large groups of people but NEVER like those on the Noordam in 1987.

 

 

We experienced the same horrible situation that you describe on Ryndam a number of years ago when there was a very large group led by "Gertrude" (I'll never forget her or her name :( she was so ugly to the rest of us aboard). She had a large Irish group aboard who brought their own band for Irish Music. The people and their music were fine.

 

What was not fine was that for 8 our of 10 nights we could not go to Crows Nest. They threw us out of aft pool all sea days at 2 PM so they could have a private party w/ their music out there and too bad about the rest of us who had paid our fares to use the whole ship.....not just a tiny corner of it. They took over the dining room and it was impossible for anyone who was not in their group to have full enjoyment of the ship.

 

HAL should NEVER IMO allow a group to take over 75-80% of a ship and then subject the rest of the pax to such a bad experience. They should insist the group takes the whole ship.....or they simply do not sell the remaining available space to people who are not fully informed of what the situation will be once aboard. GREED dictates, as always!!!

[fb0075]

You have to understand that no matter what happens ,there are some on this board that--even tho they were not there--will doubt anything negative that is said and will insult and make you feel foolish for trying to inform the rest of us!

BUT,alas,look what happens when the same thing happens to them!!!!

 

Because of this attitude that HAL has demonstrated in the last year or so--raising prices while customer service is at the lowest ebb--I have stopped sailing HAL and tried other lines and been quite pleansantly surprised-

I will still sail HAL if I cant find anything similar--that is how I am handling it for now!

FRANK

[twinkletoes4445]

You have to understand that no matter what happens ,there are some on this board that--even tho they were not there--will doubt anything negative that is said and will insult and make you feel foolish for trying to inform the rest of us!

BUT,alas,look what happens when the same thing happens to them!!!!

 

Because of this attitude that HAL has demonstrated in the last year or so--raising prices while customer service is at the lowest ebb--I have stopped sailing HAL and tried other lines and been quite pleansantly surprised-

I will still sail HAL if I cant find anything similar--that is how I am handling it for now!

FRANK

 

Yep, you're right.

 

And we do have a lot of other options out there. :)

[harbormaster]

Reply from HAL came today. Exactly the same wording regarding the Crow's Nest as the above. Incorrect information. Form letter. So much for customer service. End of story.

[gizmo]

Habormaster,

 

Thanks for letting us know you received the "cookie cutter" response.

 

As you said, "So much for customer service". They can't even get the story right. :rolleyes:

[twinkletoes4445]

Reply from HAL came today. Exactly the same wording regarding the Crow's Nest as the above. Incorrect information. Form letter. So much for customer service. End of story.

 

Thanks for updating us. It's too bad HAL has chosen to deal with this issue this way.

[DoctorFeelgood]

I have to agree with many of the above. Imagine if a private function booked the swimming pools for an entire Caribbean cruise? Or how about the library for a transatlantic? Or a specialty restaurant for the duration of the cruise? Or the casino?

 

Public areas should be just that: public. When people purchase a cruise ticket, the understanding is that they will have full use of all amenities (unless some reasonable unforseeable event has made them temporarily unavailable to all passengers).

 

If we wanted to go back to first, second and third class service, we'd be doing so.

[NHBob]

A similar situation arose with a bridge group recently on Crystal - see thread titled "shame on you Crystal", or something like that on Crystal boards. I can't mention the name of the organizer, but will send it to anybody who e-mails me so you can check their website to see which cruises they have groups scheduled for

 

As a result of the furor raised by a number of Crystal regulars, they seem to be doing something to alleviate the situation. No cruise line can afford to refuse group bookings, but unless it is a full time charter they certainly shouldn't have the right to curtail services to other fare-paying passengers.

 

Based on what I've seen on the Crystal thread, and the fact that we have their attention, don't limit your displeasure to comment cards. Write a polite but strong letter of protest to HAL's home office and make it clear that this sort of thing is unacceptable. Don't know if it would help, but I'd also demand a partial refund for the periods I was denied access to public areas.

 

Thought: wonder what would happen if a group of passengers went into the reserved room early and simply refused to leave!

[Charliesmom]

There was an article in either the New York Times or the Boston Globe this last week that talked about resort hotels hosting groups and closing off areas to other paying guests. The pointed out that groups supplied 30% of the hotels' business and that more and more areas of hotels were being used as special venues including spas.

 

They pointed out that the most likely time for this to happen was "off season". Of course, "on season" means that you will encounter great crowds in popular places.

 

This happened to us while we were in Las Vegas at the Venetian Hotel. The pool was closed for a "private party".

 

The big problem is that individuals do not have as much clout as groups. We can, however, vote with our pocketbooks and not give our money in the future to those who would abuse us. When the experience is not worth the aggravation, it is time to leave.

 

In the meantime, I think the list of groups who will be on Holland America is a good start. Of course, we cannot predict when a "special customer" of Holland America will take over a venue.

 

What I find extremely disturbing is a general attitude of "the small customer doesn't count".

 

Roberta

[barbon2]

Wow, if you look at the number of "views" to this post over 29,000 it looks like a lot of people are interested in this subject. Perhaps HAL and other lines will take a closer look at how they work logistics of a group. Again, as one who encountered one of these groups and blocked off public areas, I can only hope that the cruiselines look at the opinions of the "little guys." Cruiselines make accomodations for groups because of revenue, just think what type of revenue they would loose without the individual bookings. As I stated, I understand having groups on board, I just don't understand blocking off an area such as the Crow's Nest or any area for the duration of a cruise. Perhaps as others have suggested, use the theater during off hrs., etc. at times when it would otherwise be dark, would be less intrusive to the other passengers. Another suggestion would be for a line to lure several larger groups to certain sailings and close them off to the public altogether. This way they could alternate the groups using the different venues. Let's hope there is a compromise of some sort.

[Odd Ball]

A similar situation arose with a bridge group recently on Crystal - see thread titled "shame on you Crystal", or something like that on Crystal boards. I can't mention the name of the organizer, but will send it to anybody who e-mails me so you can check their website to see which cruises they have groups scheduled for

 

As a result of the furor raised by a number of Crystal regulars, they seem to be doing something to alleviate the situation. No cruise line can afford to refuse group bookings, but unless it is a full time charter they certainly shouldn't have the right to curtail services to other fare-paying passengers.

 

Based on what I've seen on the Crystal thread, and the fact that we have their attention, don't limit your displeasure to comment cards. Write a polite but strong letter of protest to HAL's home office and make it clear that this sort of thing is unacceptable. Don't know if it would help, but I'd also demand a partial refund for the periods I was denied access to public areas.

 

Thought: wonder what would happen if a group of passengers went into the reserved room early and simply refused to leave!

 

Interesting. I will take a look at Crystal's forum.

[onthegogirl]

Found this "sticky" on the Crystal board.

 

 

 

This information as sent to us by Crystal Cruises:

 

Regarding the continuing comments about recent group activity on Crystal Symphony, we want to reassure Cruise Critic members that we are taking appropriate measures to resolve this matter.

 

Management has taken this very seriously and has been discussing this with officers on the ship, as well as the leaders of the group who also want to ensure that everyone enjoys their vacations. We are revising our group policies as follows:

 

#1. Groups will not have specialty restaurant priority treatment.

#2. Crystal Cruises will restrict the times that public spaces can be reserved in order to not interfere with other guests' experience.

 

We are committed to making everyone feel comfortable and welcome aboard our ships. Since Crystal's inception, we have had groups on board without issue. A "group" can be comprised of family members traveling together or even the valued members of Cruise Critic who join each other for specific cruises. Please keep in mind the group that was discussed in these messages was a bridge group -- not a rowdy, uncontrollable gang.

 

We do take responsibility and recognize that part of the reason this particular group was more visible was due to the recent remodel of Crystal Symphony. The redesign has been applauded by guests for its stylish new spaces -- one of which was the Starlite Lounge that was minimally used and served as a good space for this kind of group. However, now this gorgeous room, which sits in the center of the ship, has been opened up and is understandably quite popular.

 

We hope this assuages everyone's concerns and reassures you of our commitment to making all of our guests feel comfortable, pampered and valued aboard our ships.

 

 

 

How does this compare with HAL's response.

[mountainmare]

Thus the difference between mass market and luxury.

[twinkletoes4445]

How does this compare with HAL's response.

 

 

Wow, that's impressive how Crystal is handling this issue.

[kryos]

Reply from HAL came today. Exactly the same wording regarding the Crow's Nest as the above. Incorrect information. Form letter. So much for customer service. End of story.

Unfortunately, I don't think our voices are gonna stop this practice. Groups are just too lucrative to the cruise lines. Simply put, they fill the ships far more efficiently than single passengers could. When a group signs on for a sailing, depending upon the group's size, they will get all kinds of perks. If the group is really big, and the leader makes it clear that they will require a certain venue for their group's exclusive use for a certain period of time, they get it. Period. ParkWest probably spends a substantial number of dollars with HAL, what with cabins for their personnel, rented space for their auctions, probably a percentage of everything they sell onboard. As a result, Park West will have lots and lots and lots of clout with HAL. If they want the Crow's Nest, they will get it. The rest of the passengers? Too bad, so sad. Maybe some OBC or a future cruise credit voucher will be offered to those who really complain loudly, but that's about it.

 

And if you think this problem is specific to HAL, think again. There's a thread over on the Crystal board (a luxury cruise line with luxury prices to match) about this same problem. In their case, it was a bridge group who took over a particular sailing ... claiming venues for their exclusive use and whatnot. Doesn't seem that Crystal did much to make it up to those other passengers either ... passengers who were paying top dollar for their cruise ... with the possible exception of a nicely worded "so sorry" letter.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

[twinkletoes4445]

And if you think this problem is specific to HAL, think again. There's a thread over on the Crystal board (a luxury cruise line with luxury prices to match) about this same problem. In their case, it was a bridge group who took over a particular sailing ... claiming venues for their exclusive use and whatnot. Doesn't seem that Crystal did much to make it up to those other passengers either ... passengers who were paying top dollar for their cruise ... with the possible exception of a nicely worded "so sorry" letter.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

It looks to me like Crystal is addressing this issue, whereas HAL's response was that it didn't happen, or at least not as much as passengers stated. It doesn't look like Crystal is saying too bad, so sad. Crystal is going to try and make everyone's cruise enjoyable.

 

Management has taken this very seriously and has been discussing this with officers on the ship, as well as the leaders of the group who also want to ensure that everyone enjoys their vacations. We are revising our group policies as follows:

 

#1. Groups will not have specialty restaurant priority treatment.

#2. Crystal Cruises will restrict the times that public spaces can be reserved in order to not interfere with other guests' experience.

[gizmo]

It appears that Crystal is more interested than Hal. They did take the time to send the response to CC and it looks like they are taking steps to insure non group pax get the cruise they paid for.

 

I think Hal failed miserably.

 

Hal couldn't even get the story straight.

[Old As Dirt Mom]

I would suggest that some of you take a look at Crystal, while you are singing its praises. They have only two ships, the Crystal Serenity, which carries 1,080 passengers, and the Crystal Symphony, with a passenger load of only 940 passengers.

 

Crystal is currently running a 40% discount special on 11-day itineraries to the Baltics/Northern Europe, with their lowest category, an outside with obstructed view, going for $4,755 per person. That does not include port, security, or handling charges of $370, nor does it include airfare, gratuities, or alcoholic beverages. There is a $5 per person per day fuel charge in addition to the above. You can add shore excursions and on-board spending.

 

I have no doubt that Crystal provides a fabulous travel experience and top notch accommodations, service, and amenities. Go for it!

[twinkletoes4445]

 

I have no doubt that Crystal provides a fabulous travel experience and top notch accommodations, service, and amenities. Go for it!

 

So because it costs more to cruise Crystal, HAL gets a "pass" when it comes to customer service? HAL didn't even acknowledge what happened...much less try and resolve it to everyone's satisfaction.

 

So HAL is becoming the blue-light special of cruises, and therefore you get what you get? I don't know...we spent almost 6k on our HAL cruise and I would have been mighty disappointed if the Crow's Nest would have been off limits to us the entire cruise. Even if I'd spent $14.99, I would have still been unhappy.

 

The great thing is there are lots of options out there. If HAL, or any cruise line, wants to do this sort of thing, I guess it's their choice. I have the option of going elsewhere. We don't "settle for whatever we get" on our vacations. :)