Parkwest Takes Over Rotterdam's Crow's Nest - Denies Passengers Access

[Odd Ball]

I received my reply from HAL today. It's from Marybeth Rose, Special Advisor, Office of the President.

 

"We sincerely apologize for the dismay you have expressed and appreciate this opportunity to response (sic). Please be advised that a large group did indeed reserve the use of the Crow's Nest during specific hours while on board the ms ROTTERDAM. As you may know, Holland America Line reserves the right to accommodate large groups who wish to sail with us, but cannot anticipate the personal dissatisfaction that some guest may experience. Because our staff was contacted by some guests on board, we made every effort to limit and re-schedule the private group functions and so on behalf of those who voiced their concern. As such, with the exception of May 11th and May 13th during daytime hours, the Crow's Nest was open to everyone at all hours throughout the sailing. We hope this information is helpful to you. Thank you again for taking the time to provide us with your comments.

 

Thank you again for taking the time to provide us with you comments. (sic)"

 

My initial inclination was to write "Pants on fire!" on the letter and mail it back but I haven't yet.

 

Don't know what I'll do. This letter is so full of errors and differs so greatly from what Harbormaster wrote about the situation, but I guess it is the HAL party line. Denial, denial, denial.

 

Same old spin. They make it sound like it was only May 11 and 13 which we all know it was NOT. :mad:

One response says they learned from it, this response doesn't bother, but makes it clear they reserve the right to accomodate large groups. What a crock. :rolleyes:

 

[Odd Ball]

 

If Park West or any other entity comes along and says "Lookie here, cloggies in Seattle, we will offer you xxxxx amount of $$$$ if you let us use the famous Crow's Nest for whatever we wanna do (within reason) during a certain cruise" What do you think the suits in the coffee capital of the world are gonna say??? Heck No, get outta here, you silly junk sellers! Go over to the Norwegians, give them your money and take your cheap champagne and paddles with you. Come on, now!

 

There's been a lot of speculation and angst on this thread but the bottom line is this: How many times has this sorta thing happened or is this going to happen in a years time? An inside source told me Park West holds this type of event 2-3 times a year.

 

Since you have an INSIDE SOURCE, did this source tell you that Park West paid additional money for use of the Crows Nest ?

[harbormaster]

Our first post on the Crow's Nest was May 3.The Crow's Nest was closed even then. I would not have posted had it not been closed. I just wanted to have a nice, enjoyable vacation. The problem was not that a group had rented the space - it's that no one would acknowledge that it had been done, or even speak to us about it.

 

However, we and our TA asked beforehand twice about groups before taking that May 2 Rotterdam cruise. Once on the ship in the Parkwest situation, we put in a comment card May 3rd. You can see from our post on May 8, it took 5 days ON THE SHIP for anyone to even acknowledge that we had made any comment. The Hotel Manager when we finally found him, stated he was not even aware we had submitted any comment card. Some of the staff members were told they were not allowed to discuss the issue.

 

Please look at the photos - it was closed more than the 11th and 13th of May. toncanuck can also speak on this issue. He was on the cruise too. If HAL wants to say it wasn't, I can only shake my head on their concept of honesty.

 

It is the lack of response from HAL, not the fact that they booked the Parkwest group, that was the heart of the issue. It is the concept of dealing with their customers honestly and openly, and with concern. As with most problems, it's not the issue, it's the coverup or response that gets you in trouble.

[peaches from georgia]

.......... It's just another risk of cruising along with storms, engine trouble, rogue waves, closed ports, noro virus, kids gone wild, obnoxious tablemates...none of which are limited to HAL.

These risks, however, HAL cannot control. In the case of denying pax access to ship venues which were used in promoting their cruiseline, such as the Crow's Nest, HAL is changing their product without notifying their customers that they are not going to deliver what they have promised. They are charging their pax the same price yet purposely delivering a lesser product.

 

Of course every company's goal is profit, but promising the product does one thing when you have purposely changed it so that the product does not do all you say it will, is a dishonest business practice. A far cry from uncontrollable risks.

[Mary Ellen]

As with most problems, it's not the issue, it's the coverup or response that gets you in trouble.

We all know 'stuff' happens. IMHO, what really makes a company stand out is how they handle a situation when 'stuff' hits the fan. HAL is failing.

[sail7seas]

Well, of all the posts...this really covers it all nicely. :)

 

All I want is to be informed, but it sounds like this won't happen.

 

Fine.

 

So my other options are to book a premium line. That's no problem, we'll probably in up doing that, because I'd rather pay more, and know exactly what I am getting. I am not one who wants to take a gamble on this sort of thing.

 

 

 

And we are lucky that we do have other options. I can just take my AMEX card and go elsewhere. :)

 

But I will say I've never come across this type of issue on any vacation we've ever taken.

 

And I really think it's a hoot that these people pay so much for this "junk." Because that's all it is. But if it's the lifeblood for certain cruiselines, then those cruiselines aren't for us.

 

Entirely your choice and privilege but Be forewarned.......Crystal and other premium lines are doing the same thing from time to time. Paying higher per diem on another cruise line will not guarantee you there won't be a similar situation.

[Mary Ellen]

Entirely your choice and privilege but Be forewarned.......Crystal and other premium lines are doing the same thing from time to time. Paying higher per diem on another cruise line will not guarantee you there won't be a similar situation.

I agree wholeheartly with Sail. The Crystal board was buzzing a while ago about some large Bridge players group. The CCers were NOT happy, but I 'think' Crystal handled the situation better than HAL is doing.

 

I thought we were safe by avoiding 7-day, USA area sailings. However this Rotterdam incident, along with the Crystal cases (this Bridge group does a number of Crystal cruises a year) have proven this NOT to be the case.

[hammybee]

Entirely your choice and privilege but Be forewarned.......Crystal and other premium lines are doing the same thing from time to time. Paying higher per diem on another cruise line will not guarantee you there won't be a similar situation.

 

The premium lines also heavily market themselves to groups known to charter the entire ship. Their size makes chartering highly attractive to many groups. Of course, when a charter happens, it's usually 8+ months into the future and once the ink has dried on the charter contract, the cruise line ceases to sell cabins to the public and begins to contact those passengers who had a booking on the now chartered sail to make other arrangements for them.

 

I only mention this because from time to time, a poster will come to this board to express their disappointment when their sailing becomes a private charter, 8 or more months into the future.

 

It seems to me that the smaller the ship, the greater the likelihood for there to be a charter for the obvious reasons.

[sab490]

These risks, however, HAL cannot control. In the case of denying pax access to ship venues which were used in promoting their cruiseline, such as the Crow's Nest, HAL is changing their product without notifying their customers that they are not going to deliver what they have promised. They are charging their pax the same price yet purposely delivering a lesser product.

 

Of course every company's goal is profit, but promising the product does one thing when you have purposely changed it so that the product does not do all you say it will, is a dishonest business practice. A far cry from uncontrollable risks.

 

Yes, HAL can control/prevent this. Yes, HAL handled it poorly and continue to do so. Yes, it is unfair to the paying pax and maybe even deceptive. All I am saying is that I, as an individual, or we, as a group, cannot control it. This has become obvious by their responses previously posted. I am not saying we shouldn't complain. We should let HAL know how we feel. But I am still looking forward to another wonderful cruise on Noordam in December, with or without access to the Crow's Nest. I just refuse to cut off my nose to spite my face. I know others feel differently and I certainly respect that.

 

- Steve

[hammybee]

I agree wholeheartly with Sail. The Crystal board was buzzing a while ago about some large Bridge players group. The CCers were NOT happy, but I 'think' Crystal handled the situation better than HAL is doing.

 

I thought we were safe by avoiding 7-day, USA area sailings. However this Rotterdam incident, along with the Crystal cases (this Bridge group does a number of Crystal cruises a year) have proven this NOT to be the case.

 

I believe that Crystal committed to ceasing to give groups priority for dining times and alternative restaurants and to minimize the blocking of public spaces to accommodate groups.

 

The majority of the thread expressed concern about the un Crystal like behavior of a certain bridge group and that some posters were offended because the group displayed name tags, and in doing so were perceived by some, to behave as if they were better than the other passengers. I think a therapist would have a field day with this one.

[hammybee]

I received my reply from HAL today. It's from Marybeth Rose, Special Advisor, Office of the President.

 

As you may know, Holland America Line reserves the right to accommodate large groups who wish to sail with us, but cannot anticipate the personal dissatisfaction that some guest may experience. Because our staff was contacted by some guests on board, we made every effort to limit and re-schedule the private group functions and so on behalf of those who voiced their concern. As such, with the exception of May 11th and May 13th during daytime hours, the Crow's Nest was open to everyone at all hours throughout the sailing.

 

Well there certainly is a disconnect between what Harbormaster reported and what this employee says. Harbormaster reported that he was told Park West hosted a group of 27 but was not clear if ths meant passengers or cabins. Regardless, it's hardly a large group in numbers, but I suspect they were a dominate force in terms of onboard spending, via Park West.

 

It also appears that this HAL employee dismisses what happened up to the point that Ms. Binnendyk responded. I wonder if this was her intent.

I think HAL might have been better off not responding to anyone, cause this is really dopey.

[twinkletoes4445]

Entirely your choice and privilege but Be forewarned.......Crystal and other premium lines are doing the same thing from time to time. Paying higher per diem on another cruise line will not guarantee you there won't be a similar situation.

 

Thanks for that info. We'll probably stick with our land vacations for the immediate future since we've not ever encountered anything of this nature.

[Jade13]

I received my reply from HAL today. It's from Marybeth Rose, Special Advisor, Office of the President.

 

"We sincerely apologize for the dismay you have expressed and appreciate this opportunity to response (sic). Please be advised that a large group did indeed reserve the use of the Crow's Nest during specific hours while on board the ms ROTTERDAM. As you may know, Holland America Line reserves the right to accommodate large groups who wish to sail with us, but cannot anticipate the personal dissatisfaction that some guest may experience. Because our staff was contacted by some guests on board, we made every effort to limit and re-schedule the private group functions and so on behalf of those who voiced their concern. As such, with the exception of May 11th and May 13th during daytime hours, the Crow's Nest was open to everyone at all hours throughout the sailing. We hope this information is helpful to you. Thank you again for taking the time to provide us with your comments.

 

Thank you again for taking the time to provide us with you comments. (sic)"

 

My initial inclination was to write "Pants on fire!" on the letter and mail it back but I haven't yet.

 

Don't know what I'll do. This letter is so full of errors and differs so greatly from what Harbormaster wrote about the situation, but I guess it is the HAL party line. Denial, denial, denial.

 

Wow, She was the same person who wrote me a letter that made no sense (Hammy - it was the one you said you kept reading over and over..)and then never returned the couple of voice messages that I left for her. I later spoke to someone else who finally resolved my issue.

[dakrewser]

I agree with Hammy. It did happen to us on Noordam and it was still the best cruise we have ever been on. Yes it is annoying and unfair but if it happens again we will deal with it. It's just another risk of cruising along with storms, engine trouble, rogue waves, closed ports, noro virus, kids gone wild, obnoxious tablemates...none of which are limited to HAL. These are all facts of cruising life, some of which we have no contol over. For us the rewards still far outweigh the risks.

 

- Steve

 

There is one major difference, though: HAL has no control over "storms, engine trouble, rogue waves, closed ports, noro virus," etc. They very much control use of the public rooms on the ship.

 

And, like many others, I've no objection to closing part of the lounge for part of a day to accommodate a meeting or party. But closing it, essentially, for all the waking hours that most pax are on the ship is, well, unethical.

[twinkletoes4445]

OK, come on now, what are you making that even little ol' me will benefit from???;) :D

 

We are in such a highly specialized field that if I mentioned what this is, it would be fairly simple to figure out who I am. We're part of a fairly small industry, but it's a vital part of what makes this world go round. And what we engineer & build is large. :)

 

So when posters talk about profits...and favoring a particular customer, I do understand. But we do things differently. When we are awarded a particular job, and if something better comes along, we don't short-shift the first customer. We honor our committment to them. Which is why we always have loyal customers who we've worked with for years and years. I know we are probably an oddity in this world, but that's the foundation of our business, and we've done nicely adopting this attitude. All our customers know they will get the best. And we also treasure our employees. And because of that, we have an extremely loyal bunch.

 

For years we flew under the radar. We're not a huge company, so the "big guns" ignored us for years. lol But there was a time when they did pay attention...because they kept hearing our company was getting the contracts.

 

Sometimes it just can't be about money. But many of these massive corporations do put the $$$ first. We're lucky, we're a private company. We'd never go public.

 

I will say that I thought your post really covered all the bases...in a very diplomatic way. :)

 

Like you said, there are just so many other choices. I'm not going to beg HAL or any other cruiseline to change this practice. I can just take my vacation $$$ and go elsewhere. There are so many other options.

[hammybee]

But closing it, essentially, for all the waking hours that most pax are on the ship is, well, unethical.

 

Yes it most certainly is unethical to intentionally mislead passengers and guests.

 

I have polished up the ole crystal ball, this morning and it's telling me that Park West will not be using the Crows Nest to accommodate a relatively small group of big time, onboard spenders, going forward, albeit as infrequently as it has occured, in the past.

 

Taking HAL out of the picture, this has been a public relations nightmare for Park West @ Sea. While their product does not appeal to me, it most certainly does to a lot of passengers and Park West needs to be a good neighbor and maintain goodwill to sustain their success.

[twinkletoes4445]

I disagree with those that say it's acceptable for HAL not to disclose in advance that certain featured venues are planned to be excluded from public use...That it's a normal occurence in the travel or hospitality business. I would offer as an analogy what passenger reaction would be on a transcontinental passenger train if the featured dome or glass topped observation car would be only available to a private party who prebooked its use during a scenic crossing of the Rocky Mountains. Could cause a riot! The railroad would never do this. If anything, they would provide another car for the private party.

For those who say its the luck of the draw... please consider a passenger who saved long and hard to go on their 'dream vacation", and may not have the means to go again as some of us may. Their missing out as just tough luck?

 

My sentiments exactly. :)

[Copper10-8]

We are in such a highly specialized field that if I mentioned what this is, it would be fairly simple to figure out who I am. We're part of a fairly small industry, but it's a vital part of what makes this world go round. And what we engineer & build is large. :)

 

So when posters talk about profits...and favoring a particular customer, I do understand. But we do things differently. When we are awarded a particular job, and if something better comes along, we don't short-shift the first customer. We honor our committment to them. Which is why we always have loyal customers who we've worked with for years and years. I know we are probably an oddity in this world, but that's the foundation of our business, and we've done nicely adopting this attitude. All our customers know they will get the best. And we also treasure our employees. And because of that, we have an extremely loyal bunch.

 

For years we flew under the radar. We're not a huge company, so the "big guns" ignored us for years. lol But there was a time when they did pay attention...because they kept hearing our company was getting the contracts.

 

Sometimes it just can't be about money. But many of these massive corporations do put the $$$ first. We're lucky, we're a private company. We'd never go public.

 

I will say that I thought your post really covered all the bases...in a very diplomatic way. :)

 

Like you said, there are just so many other choices. I'm not going to beg HAL or any other cruiseline to change this practice. I can just take my vacation $$$ and go elsewhere. There are so many other options.

 

Fair enough Twinkletoes and thanks for explaining! All the best in your business and here's hoping that HAL can continue to rely on your patronage!:) (without too many encounters with "Vaughn the terrible";) )

[twinkletoes4445]

I am not sure how much one has to spend to be a Parkwest VIP to get a free cruise, but perhaps some of them have it figured out where they spend say $5K (I am making up this number) on the auction (and get something) but end up with a free Suite which would have cost them a lot more.

 

This is not how I would want to spend my vacation time, but perhaps some of these people are not so dumb...just a thought.

 

In the scenario you described...HAL is the dumb one, and the buyer is the smart one.

 

It would be much more profitable to sell me the suite, than to comp it to the PW buy buyer (if we go by what you are saying, and the suite would have cost more).

 

The only way it would be better for HAL to comp a suite would be if the PW customer paid more for the artwork than the cost of the suite, otherwise why not just sell the suite to a paying customer?

 

Comps usually are given when people excede the cost of whatever is being given to them.

[twinkletoes4445]

Fair enough Twinkletoes and thanks for explaining! All the best in your business and here's hoping that HAL can continue to rely on your patronage!:) (without too many encounters with "Vaughn the terrible";) )

 

LOL...Yes, Vaughn was something!

 

You don't know how much it pains me to say anything negative about HAL. We did love our cruise. Everything was perfect. But we also loved the Crow's Nest, and for us, we just don't want to take the risk of not having access to it during our cruise. Now one of these days, we might change our minds about this issue...but that's how we feel now.

 

This is a forum (which is why I read and discuss it all...the good, the bad, and the ugly). And it's important to talk about different issues because if you do your homework in advance, you can maxamize your vacation by doing what is going to suit your needs. And what bothers me, may not bother others. But the info is out there...and we all have to do what's best for ourselves.

 

Your post was the best. It simply stated what was going on and what we could or could not expect to happen. It wasn't personal, you just stated the facts in a nice way. And you do that with all your posts...you can manage to stick to the facts...but not make it seem like it's right or wrong. It's the simple facts, the way things are. :)

 

And thanks for the good wishes for our business. We're hoping that in the not-too-far-off future, we can turn over control to our son, and then maybe we can have a vacation where we leave our cell phones in the drawer...and be gone from home for more than a week at a time. That's my goal.

[twinkletoes4445]

 

Please look at the photos - it was closed more than the 11th and 13th of May. toncanuck can also speak on this issue. He was on the cruise too. If HAL wants to say it wasn't, I can only shake my head on their concept of honesty.

 

It is the lack of response from HAL, not the fact that they booked the Parkwest group, that was the heart of the issue. It is the concept of dealing with their customers honestly and openly, and with concern. As with most problems, it's not the issue, it's the coverup or response that gets you in trouble.

 

HAL isn't being honest. And the more they try and not deal with what really went on, the deeper they dig themselves into the hole they are in.

 

They act like this came as a surprise. Like none of the other passengers would care if they closed off the best lounge for viewing off for the cruise.

 

At this point...they just need to say they screwed up and they're sorry. But I don't think that will happen. They probably figure that if they ignore this long enought...it will go away.

[twinkletoes4445]

Of course every company's goal is profit, but promising the product does one thing when you have purposely changed it so that the product does not do all you say it will, is a dishonest business practice. A far cry from uncontrollable risks.

 

 

It is dishonest. And they run the risk of losing a certain percentage of cruisers over this sort of practice. They must figure there's enough people out there willing to deal with this, or enough large groups, to fill their ships.

[gizmo]

HAL isn't being honest. And the more they try and not deal with what really went on, the deeper they dig themselves into the hole they are in.

 

They act like this came as a surprise. Like none of the other passengers would care if they closed off the best lounge for viewing off for the cruise.

 

At this point...they just need to say they screwed up and they're sorry. But I don't think that will happen. They probably figure that if they ignore this long enought...it will go away.

 

Ditto !

 

They are really digging themselves into a hole with this. :eek:

[O2B@C]

In regard to the comparison with land-based resorts, I do recall on at least one occasion going to a hotel website and seeing that they were offering "reduced prices during construction." Now THAT sounds like a win-win proposition to me.

 

So here's an idea (Seattle, are you listening?). If HAL really MUST close off the CN in order to book a lucrative group (which I doubt, but let's assume it's true), they could advertise "reduced prices due to group booking" on that cruise. True, in the short run, this would mean they'd lose some revenue from individually booked cabins being sold at a discount. BUT - think of the goodwill they would acquire from being honest about the situation - AND - the reduced prices would probably attract some pax who otherwise could not or would not have booked that cruise, while the revenue from the group booking (including perhaps a charge for the exclusive use of the CN) would mean the cruise would still operate at a profit. At least some of those pax would likely be new to HAL and/or to cruising. After HAL uses reduced prices to lure those folks in, at least some of them will enjoy the experience come back again - perhaps on a cruise where they pay full fare but get to use the CN this time. Long term, I think there would be enough of an upside to this marketing strategy to more than make up for the short-term revenue sacrifice.

[serendipity1499]

I disagree with those that say it's acceptable for HAL not to disclose in advance that certain featured venues are planned to be excluded from public use...That it's a normal occurrence in the travel or hospitality business. Quote

 

I don't recall one poster on this entire thread, who stated that this is an acceptable practice! It's not - but it still occurs more times than you will ever know..

 

Both Hammybee & I along with several others have continually stated that we would be very angry if the Crows Nest were closed for our entire cruise...But would we allow it to ruin our cruise..No way!..That is the difference..Many of us have learned from experience that these things happen & if we continue to be upset over these things, it will only hurt us & no one else..

 

However, I do stand by my observation that it is a normal occurrence in every phase of the the Hospitality Business..Even though I don't approve of it, these things occassionally happen.. Often Patrons become annoyed & complain, but many large companies feel it costs less to offer little incentives with apologies..

 

I'm appalled & disappointed in the answers you have all received from HAL..Honestly don't believe that Seattle has been given the complete & true story from the Ships Officers..I don't condone these practices & have never been a knowing participant in this type of practice..We always tried to give our Passengers and Travel Agents an honest answer & hoped that we were given the complete & true facts from our employees as well as outside vendors...

 

Twinkletoes..Apparently you did not completely understand my post..I gave examples of two occurrences which took place here in Florida..Never stated that I was at either the resort or the hotel in Jacksonville..Even though I'm retired I still, make it my business to keep track of what's going on in the travel field..

 

Thank you for your offer of your Travel Agent, which I will respectfully decline as, believe that I'm perfectly capable of handling both our business travel & vacation travel plans..I do my homework.. But any Travel Professional who guarantees that an occurrence such as this will not happen on any one of your cruises, your resort vacations, or your hotels is not being completely truthful..

 

Betty

 

P.S. Don't understand your statement that HAL is known as the "Nursing Home on the high seas".:( .On all of our longer HAL cruises, the average age of the passengers have been around 50... On our earlier 7-10 day cruises, the average ages were even younger..Was your cruise any different or did your Travel Agent tell you this?