Parkwest Takes Over Rotterdam's Crow's Nest - Denies Passengers Access

[hammybee]

They are in denial.

 

Someone somewhere (maybe the MBA with his martinis...lol) thought they'd toss this out and see if it floats. And it sounds like they've done this before. But they better be careful, because they could lose their loyal following...and end up with a lot of ship space to fill with charters or special groups...because the individual cruiser isn't going care for being treated like this.

 

And then the cruise line ends up with repeat group business and of the group, many will return as independent cruisers. I do not see a down side for the cruise line.

[serendipity1499]

HAL learn their lesson...:( You have to be kidding..

 

Hammybee, I agree with what others have said about your speculation being way off about utilizing unsold cabins at the last minute...

 

It looks like it's being done again on the Maasdam next January 5-15 unless the TA misinformed the poster... Not PW but now a JAZZ group.. :mad:

[Old As Dirt Mom]

(With a "thank you" to Shari Lewis and her children's show Lambchops Play Along):

 

This is the thread that never ends,

It just goes on and on my friend;

Some people started posting here

Not knowing what it was,

And they'll continue posting here

Forever just because.........

 

 

This is the thread that never ends,

It just goes on and on my friend........:eek:

[bob brown]

This thread (and other similar ones) go on and on because this is a real 'hot button issue" to most loyal HAL passengers. If Park West is so successful with their 'VIP's", then they should charter the entire vessel and then they could do what they want to their hearts content, with apologies to no one. But as others have said, to represent that all facilities on a ship shown as 'public space', with not even a tiny disclaimer that it may not always be available is a real misrepresentation. I would be bitterly disappointed to be denied access to the Crow's Nest for a private party which properly should be in the Half Moon/Hudson room. I feel so strongly on this issue, that if I experienced this sort of unfortunate event, I would voice my displeasure most strongly with not a comment card, which I believe is disregarded, but rather with my wallet by trying another carrier for future cruises.:mad:

[hammybee]

HAL learn their lesson...:( You have to be kidding..

 

Hammybee, I agree with what others have said about your speculation being way off about utilizing unsold cabins at the last minute...

 

I have sailed with passengers in Europe who received comp cabins in tis way because they were known to HAL and ParkWest to be serious on board spenders.

 

I have also read enough threads from cruise line employee(s), on different forums, within CC, to have gleamed that cruise lines do indeed allocate unsold premium cabins this way.

 

Of course this is just information. What a cruise line does or not with its unsold cabins is none of our concern. The bottom line is that cruise lines are redefining what most passengers have come to think of as public space and using such space to secure lucrative group bookings. The passengers within these groups love it and their cruises and so many become repeat groups, year after year. A cruise line can afford to lose a heck of a lot of individual passengers if they secure enough group business. HAL may very well be the leader in group cruise business and most definitely has some momentum going for it. And they have a choice to disappoint some individual passengers , many of whom may not even notice what they are missing or blow the socks off a large group to secure another group booking.

 

Some day, we may all be booking our cruises with a group. Stranger things have happened.

[hammybee]

(With a "thank you" to Shari Lewis and her children's show Lambchops Play Along):

 

This is the thread that never ends,

It just goes on and on my friend;

Some people started posting here

Not knowing what it was,

And they'll continue posting here

Forever just because.........

 

 

This is the thread that never ends,

It just goes on and on my friend........:eek:

 

I love Lambchop and this song.

[sail7seas]

The bottom line is that cruise lines are redefining what most passengers have come to think of as public space and using such space to secure lucrative group bookings. The passengers within these groups love it and their cruises and so many become repeat groups, year after year. A cruise line can afford to lose a heck of a lot of individual passengers if they secure enough group business. HAL may very well be the leader in group cruise business and most definitely has some momentum going for it. And they have a choice to disappoint some individual passengers , many of whom may not even notice what they are missing or blow the socks off a large group to secure another group booking.

 

 

I will freely admit that I really do not like denying guests access to Crows Nest for an entire cruise, I will also admit this is the best explanation I have yet read. I think it (reasonably) accurate. No.... I DON'T like it but accept the likelihood you have probably 'hit the nail on the head'.

 

[serendipity1499]

I have sailed with passengers in Europe who received comp cabins in tis way because they were known to HAL and Park West to be serious on board spenders.

 

I have also read enough threads from cruise line employee(s), on different forums, within CC, to have gleamed that cruise lines do indeed allocate unsold premium cabins this way.

 

Of course this is just information. What a cruise line does or not with its unsold cabins is none of our concern. The bottom line is that cruise lines are redefining what most passengers have come to think of as public space and using such space to secure lucrative group bookings. The passengers within these groups love it and their cruises and so many become repeat groups, year after year. A cruise line can afford to lose a heck of a lot of individual passengers if they secure enough group business. HAL may very well be the leader in group cruise business and most definitely has some momentum going for it. And they have a choice to disappoint some individual passengers , many of whom may not even notice what they are missing or blow the socks off a large group to secure another group booking.

 

Some day, we may all be booking our cruises with a group. Stranger things have happened.

 

Hammybee..I should have clarified my post..I agree about Cruise Lines offering comp. cabins &/or discounts.. I was in the Travel field, & our first cruise in the 70's on NCL was 75% off ...Our friends (who happen to be Norwegian & worked for SAS) were also given 75 % off on an inside cabin & then were upgraded to an outside cabin on NCL..Of course, we were not able to get confirmations on our cabins until 45 days prior to departure... These cabins were the unsold cabins..

 

What I'm saying is that in the case of Park West Groups & many other groups I do not believe these are unsold cabins..I believe Park West & other groups (as in the case of the Maasdam next January) book a block of cabins at a discount..HAL then gives the organizers certain perks, such as OBC's, wine & blocked space for their meetings/Art sales etc..HAL is still making money on the commission they get from these Art Sales so the discount on the cabins is made up...For a large group, such as the Park West, this has to be planned many months in advance as Park West must send the invitations out to their high spenders..

 

That's why I disagreed in principle with you..This is planned many months in advance..Group organizers have a great deal of clout with the cruise lines & get many good perks from them...

 

Betty..:)

[serendipity1499]

Forgot to add I believe as far as the passengers are concerned they are comp cabins, but Park West pays HAL a discounted price..It could be 50% or even 75% but don't believe HAL is losing any money as they make it up from the commission Park West Pays them on Sales..Betty:)

[terrydtx]

The saddest thing of all is that Parkwest is a total rip off and the cruise companies in the search for the mighty dollar and new revenue streams allow them to occupy space on their cruises and rip off their passengers. As I have said before if all of us would boycott their phony "art Auctions" they would go away for good. Or better yet go to the auctions and drink thier cheap champagne and buy nothing!!

[twinkletoes4445]

And then the cruise line ends up with repeat group business and of the group, many will return as independent cruisers. I do not see a down side for the cruise line.

 

You're right...there is no down side for the cruise line LOL...it's the individual cruiser that's getting hosed. They are making money from renting out the Crow's Nest, and they are also saying it's a public space.

 

Wonder how "special" those group cruisers will feel if they return as an individal cruiser and are not allowed access to the Crow's Nest.

 

Again, HAL is in denial.

 

But I'll bet they are glad they have their own little cheerleader here trying to convice many of us that's this isn't a big deal...and it may not be to you...but it is to me and others. Sorry, it's a public space...if they want to rent it out all the time, of even during the prime viewing time (daytime), then they need to take this area off the list of being a "public" space.

 

And I do agree with others about your "speculation" concering the number of passengers booked on this cruise. How do you know this? Just a guess? Looking in a crystal ball?

 

At one point you said something along the line...how do we know this poster is telling the truth? He posted the facts. It was negative. So you tried to convince us that because we weren't there, we don't this as being true.

 

And then you "speculate" as to why something happened. lol

 

Rah, rah... :(

[twinkletoes4445]

The saddest thing of all is that Parkwest is a total rip off and the cruise companies in the search for the mighty dollar and new revenue streams allow them to occupy space on their cruises and rip off their passengers. As I have said before if all of us would boycott their phony "art Auctions" they would go away for good. Or better yet go to the auctions and drink thier cheap champagne and buy nothing!!

 

I don't know anyone who buys their cheap art, but there must be some fools out there. It's a way to make more money. And if they can't make a profit without selling this phoney art, then they need to up the price of the cruise...and let me make a decision if I want to pay that or not.

 

There are people out there who don't care about this...but I do. Be upfront, and be honest, or I am never stepping foot on a HAL ship again.

[donaldsc]

I come back to what I posted some time back on the extremely extended topic - what could the ship doo if several hundred people when into the denied areas and refused to leave - throw us in irons, restrict us to bread and water, arrest us, or perhaps refuse to sell us tickets to new cruises.

 

It would make a great story on the internet to show several hundred senior on a Crow's Nest sit in.

 

Civil disobedience (sp?) and a lot of publicity can work wonders. They will only get away with it if we let them push us around.

 

DON

[twinkletoes4445]

Exactly. They're not gonna change the policy, so what can they say? For the money they make from the large groups they host onboard, a few piddling complaints from people like us aren't gonna matter that much. My guess is sometime in the coming months, each person who wrote a letter to HAL about this will receive a standard form letter, with perhaps a certificate for a small discount on a future HAL cruise. But, of course, to take advantage of the discount, you have to book another cruise ... and then who knows? You just might have another large group onboard that one.

 

Blue skies ...

 

--rita

 

They value this particular type of cruiser over the individual cruiser, and they will not change. So I do agree...a few complaints from us won't make much of a difference. All I can do is take my $$$ and vacation elsewhere...which is what I'll do.

 

Some people are willing to take a chance and see what happens...and some people just don't care about this...which is fine.

 

HAL just needs to understand that at some point, they may have such a dwindling number of induvidual cruisers, that they only will be able to fill their ships with special interest groups. But it seems that's the direction they are going...so we're going another direction.

[twinkletoes4445]

I come back to what I posted some time back on the extremely extended topic - what could the ship doo if several hundred people when into the denied areas and refused to leave - throw us in irons, restrict us to bread and water, arrest us, or perhaps refuse to sell us tickets to new cruises.

 

It would make a great story on the internet to show several hundred senior on a Crow's Nest sit in.

 

Civil disobedience (sp?) and a lot of publicity can work wonders. They will only get away with it if we let them push us around.

 

DON

 

LOL...love the sit in idea!!

 

I think HAL is moving in the direction of group and special interest cruisers. The individual cruisers are going to be less and less a part of HAL, and they don't care. And really, if this is how they want to run their business, whatever, I just don't have to book a cruise with them. But it's the underhanded way they handled this that bothers me. What are you going to do once on the ship? Leave? They know this.

 

I don't think they're going to change...but publicity will inform individual cruisers what HAL's agenda is. And just knowing this could happen on a cruise might send many of the individual cruisers elsewhere. So I think publicity about this would be good.

 

It's just good to know what they are doing...because HAL isn't going to offer up this information. Right now, they have their groups...and the individuals. But that could change. They may or may not care...but I'd rather know in advance about something like this.

 

And I'd like to know if they'd still be doing this sort of thing if their individual base dwindled or became nonexistant. But this sort of thing won't fly under the radar long. I've lost count how many people I've told (sort of like that shampoo commercial-she told two friends, and they told two friends, and so on and on).

 

There are just too many other ways I can spend my vacation $$$'s to be dealing with this.

[Nutrioso]

I have followed this thread since the beginning. My reaction is that I would be very angry if the Crow's Nest (one of our favorite venues) were closed for an entire cruise. It would be such a big disappointment. Hope it never happens to us. We are (have been) loyalist HALers.

[hammybee]

 

 

Again, HAL is in denial.

 

But I'll bet they are glad they have their own little cheerleader here trying to convice many of us that's this isn't a big deal...and it may not be to you...but it is to me and others. Sorry, it's a public space...if they want to rent it out all the time, of even during the prime viewing time (daytime), then they need to take this area off the list of being a "public" space.

 

And I do agree with others about your "speculation" concering the number of passengers booked on this cruise. How do you know this? Just a guess? Looking in a crystal ball?

 

At one point you said something along the line...how do we know this poster is telling the truth? He posted the facts. It was negative. So you tried to convince us that because we weren't there, we don't this as being true.

 

And then you "speculate" as to why something happened. lol

 

Rah, rah... :(

 

Denial means pretending something did not happen. Perhaps a better term is that HAL and all the other cruise lines are ignoring the situation.

 

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything beyond the realities of cruising which includes Park West being a significant contributer to the bottom line of every cruise and that large Groups trump individual passengers. It is what it is. The alternative is for all of us to pay multiples of what we currently do. Or, some of us may give up cruising and return to land-based resort vacations and when we do it is likely that some of us will be denied use of the pool, a beach and /or golf course or some other perceived public venue, because it has been designated for a private function.

 

The OP did not have his facts straight in the begining and relied upon what some officer told him, that the CN was closed due to a Park West renting out the CN for anemployee event. Eventually he and we learned that the guests were Park West VIPs.

 

I have sailed with Park West VIPs who received comp cabins because they were known to HAL and Parkwest as big spenders and they most certainly were. It is common for people like this to board mid cruise and the ship will indeed wait for them.

 

Your messages have repeatedly told us you are not going to cruise going forward and that you want to discourage others from doing so because a public venue might be closed or the ship might become chartered. And these messages persist despite that you have a lovely time on your HAL cruise, as do, most cruisers.

[twinkletoes4445]

It is what it is. The alternative is for all of us to pay multiples of what we currently do.

 

 

Your messages have repeatedly told us you are not going to cruise going forward and that you want to discourage others from doing so because a public venue might be closed or the ship might become chartered. And these messages persist despite that you have a lovely time on your HAL cruise, as do, most cruisers.

 

Yes, it is what it is. However, you seem to be fine with this..I am not. And if it costs us "multiples" of what we are currently paying, then it is really time to try another cruise line (are you looking in your crystal ball again? How on earth would you know this?).

 

Don't you have to ask yourself how other cruise lines manage to make money without having to resort to this sort of thing. If HAL cut this portion of their profits out, then at least you'd know what you're going to get for what you're paying...rather than finding out once you got onboard that one of the best public spaces isn't available.

 

And again, you "state" that it will cost us multiples, but yet you don't know this for a fact. And you are certainly quick to point out to others that their info is wrong. As you pointed out about the OP. He was there...it was closed. He was unhappy. I don't blame him.

 

If HAL wants to cater to these people, so be it. But if HAL wants to continue to have individual cruisers, they are going to have to understand that not everyone will be happy with a situation like this.

 

Don't you think everyone should have the opportunity of knowing this sort of thing is going on prior to their cruise? Then they can make the choice that suits them best. And then if they are unhappy...well, they knew in advance. It's the deceptive way HAL is going about this that rubs me the wrong way.

 

Yes, I had a lovely cruise. So what. I would have gone on another cruise in a heartbeat, and we probably will, on another line, as long as HAL is doing this sort of thing. If they change what they are doing, I'll be back on HAL quickerthanthis.

 

I am not discouraging anyone to cruise. I am saying that what's going on should be brought to the attention of potential cruisers...and let THEM make their choice. Unlike you, I am not trying to speculate as to why they are doing it. I think it's far more important to be above board with individual passengers and give them options.

 

HAL can do what they want. I don't care what motivates them. I just want to be informed so I can make a decision that's best for ME and my family. You can do what you want. Why do you not want other people to know about this so they can make a decision that best suits their needs?

[twinkletoes4445]

I have followed this thread since the beginning. My reaction is that I would be very angry if the Crow's Nest (one of our favorite venues) were closed for an entire cruise. It would be such a big disappointment. Hope it never happens to us. We are (have been) loyalist HALers.

 

It would be a big disappointment to me. I just wish HAL would be upfront about this. I don't even really care why they do this...I just want to know what I will pay for access to ALL public spaces.

 

I'd hate to get on a ship and find out this after the fact. But they probably won't change. Not until they have lost most of their individual cruisers, and then have to rely on those individual passengers who don't care, and the groups that they seem to want on the ship. Maybe they can fill their ships to capacity...who knows, but I just want to be informed ahead of time. That's all I want.

[serendipity1499]

LOL...love the sit in idea!!

 

I think HAL is moving in the direction of group and special interest cruisers. The individual cruisers are going to be less and less a part of HAL, and they don't care. And really, if this is how they want to run their business, whatever, I just don't have to book a cruise with them. But it's the underhanded way they handled this that bothers me. What are you going to do once on the ship? Leave? They know this.

 

I don't think they're going to change...but publicity will inform individual cruisers what HAL's agenda is. And just knowing this could happen on a cruise might send many of the individual cruisers elsewhere. So I think publicity about this would be good.

 

It's just good to know what they are doing...because HAL isn't going to offer up this information. Right now, they have their groups...and the individuals. But that could change. They may or may not care...but I'd rather know in advance about something like this.

 

And I'd like to know if they'd still be doing this sort of thing if their individual base dwindled or became nonexistant. But this sort of thing won't fly under the radar long. I've lost count how many people I've told (sort of like that shampoo commercial-she told two friends, and they told two friends, and so on and on).

 

There are just too many other ways I can spend my vacation $$$'s to be dealing with this.

 

Twinkletoes..You keep talking about HAL's agenda...You are the one in denial..Park West is on most Cruise Lines & they are raking in the money for these companies..Go on their WEB site..You will see they are hiring people to work as auctioneers on all the cruise lines...

 

But to say that it's only HAL is ludicrous..Wake up & smell the coffee...Don't expect any other Cruise Line to be any different..If you don't like it, then take a land based vacation where you can be assured that all the public areas will be open & not rented out to private groups..If you can find one of these..:rolleyes:

 

As far as people buying their junk, they do!...On NCL my friend & I sat in one of their auctions just for the fun of it...We were there for more than three hours, drank their cheap champagne & bought nothing, but we did win a print! (that's another story)..You would not believe the people around us who were buying this so called art..We saw at least 10 people bidding & purchasing many pieces in one sitting..We came to the conclusion that they were dealers who were re-selling these pieces...

 

I don't like it either & will complain bitterly, if I'm blocked for any length of time from using the Crows Nest or any other area that is supposedly open to the public..And it may come to be that HAL will have very few individual passengers as opposed to group passengers, but you can bet your life that they will still make money!

 

If you don't believe me, go on the other Cruise Critic Cruise Lines sites & see for yourself the same complaints! :( Betty

[hammybee]

 

Twinkletoes, I think we both have too much time on our hands :)

 

I understand motivation- not the same thing as agreeing with the outcome.

 

Other mass -marketed and to some extent even luxury cruise lines make money the same way as HAL is making money. They all count on onboard sales of anything and everything including art sales and shore excursions. I appreciate that many passengers like the art auctions because the revenues from this are subsidizing my cruise.

 

Increasingly, cruise lines are chartering out their ships and competing for Group business. And this occasionally includes closing public venues, when the Group and/ or financial motivation is sufficient for it to make business sense, for the cruise line to do so.

 

I feel very comfortable with my position on cruising because I know that the cost of cruising in an inside/outside cabin, representing the majority of cabins, on a typical 7 day intinerary, is less now than it was 10 years ago, when one seeks value. How is this possible, when the cost of everything, and especially fuel, has sky rocketed?

 

I am fond of making analogies between flying and cruising because I think the business model is far more compariable than cruising is to a land-based resort. Passengers are a captive audiance in a plane and on a cruise ship and most passengers tend to chose a flight or cruise based upon price. Very few passengers fly in First Class or sail in a Suite.

 

Unlike air travel, cruise lines have more alternatives and can successfully compete with land based resorts for Group business. People want onboard enrichment and are willing to pay a premium for it, whether it be music, specific entertainment, spiritual interests, cooking, lifestyles, quilting, bell ringers, bridge or poker. And if the size of the Group is significant, they will obtain, on occasion, different flavors of perks.

 

I have said all along that disclosing upfront the size of a group and what perks they achieved, is not going to happen. Again, I understand the cruise line's motivation - different than agreeing with the outcome.

 

This Group thing is not limited to HAL and within HAL, being denied access to the Crows Nest is rare, given the number of sailing per year. If someone wants to cruise on any cruise line and they do so as an individual passenger as opposed to a dominate group passenger, they risk being trumped somewhere along the line by a dominate Group. As with any risk, it is important to quantify it, the probability as well as the severity of the consequence.

 

I think the likelihood of the Crow's Nest being closed for a private event for the majoirity of a cruise is less than the likelihood of having poor weather. At the same time, I can say that closing a public venue for one cruise is once too many from the perspective of a passenger, who was denied access. Some passengers will not notice. Some passengers will not care. Some passengers will be miffed but not let it impact their cruise and some passengers will be outraged. It all depends on the individual.

 

HAL is 6-7 weeks into the 2007 Alaska season with 8 ships. That's 48+ sailings and there have been dominate Groups on each of them. But thus far, the Crows Nest has not been turned over to any Group. And it is my fondest hope that the remainder of the season progresses the same.

 

I have enough trouble keeping my own foot out of my mouth and do not need addition help. :) I will really appreciate it, going forward, if you refrain from putting words in my mouth and further speculation about my profession, employer, behavior and intentions.

 

Now let's join Lamb Chop( thank you Middle-aged Mom) and sing about how this is the thread that will never end......

[Jade13]

You are lured into then with the promise of free cheap champagne or wine and they sell off cheap art prints at full retail to pax with little or no art buying knowledge. Parkwest boasts about how the artworks they sell will go up in value as an investment, the same BS all timshare salesmen use. Any one every bought a time share and sold it for more than you paid for it?

 

quote]

 

I went to get the cheap champagne and they wouldn't even give me the champagne!! Ok, to be serious, I thought I would check it out having worked part time in an auction house. It was just something to do on my first cruise on a "big" ship. My Dh had accidently taken the paddle back to our cabin while I stood in line for my champagne at the end of the auction. Besides pushing everyone to the back of the line who had not made a purchase, they refused the champagne without the paddle (you know how it is in line, you don't want to get out after standing there). I told the auctioneer's sidekick that Dh had taken the paddle with him and besides, I was signed in in their book with cabin number but he wouldn't give me the bottle. Yes, I did complain to the Customer Relations Rep but she was useless, noded her head and did nothing...I never did get my bottle, although I did have the paper fom the room stating you would get the champagne if you attended the auction.

[Jade13]

You're right...there is no down side for the cruise line LOL...it's the individual cruiser that's getting hosed. They are making money from renting out the Crow's Nest, and they are also saying it's a public space.

 

Wonder how "special" those group cruisers will feel if they return as an individal cruiser and are not allowed access to the Crow's Nest.

 

Again, HAL is in denial.

 

But I'll bet they are glad they have their own little cheerleader here trying to convice many of us that's this isn't a big deal...and it may not be to you...but it is to me and others. Sorry, it's a public space...if they want to rent it out all the time, of even during the prime viewing time (daytime), then they need to take this area off the list of being a "public" space.

 

And I do agree with others about your "speculation" concering the number of passengers booked on this cruise. How do you know this? Just a guess? Looking in a crystal ball?

 

At one point you said something along the line...how do we know this poster is telling the truth? He posted the facts. It was negative. So you tried to convince us that because we weren't there, we don't this as being true.

 

And then you "speculate" as to why something happened. lol

 

Rah, rah... :(

 

Twinkle, that's a little harsh on Hammy ("But I'll bet they are glad they have their own little cheerleader here trying to convice many of us that's this isn't a big deal,") don't you think? Hammy's post didn't sound that way to me, just seems an explanation on HAL making money on Parkwest & other groups, and how they will continue to sell to large groups to make money.

 

The original issue was the taking over of the Crow's Nest. Even I went to check it out on my first HAL cruise and it was closed for a group. Our CC group is scheduled to have a Meet & Greet there this summer, but we have been warned that our venue could be changed.

 

I also agree with you that HAL and it's special assistants do give wishy washy response letters. I have received some myself (another issue) that were not 100% clear, and that in itself is a customer service issue.

[bob brown]

Ever since submitting my second evaluation card to HAL, and not getting any response to my comments, I have been offering higher and higher $$ to the charity of their choice if they would send me a response to my comments. Guess what? Still none after five HAL cruises.:rolleyes:

[Barkingowl]

I wonder how much it would cost to rent the CN for a cruise just to keep it public?