Europeans (and Brits), Me & Gratuities

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

Hi John:

 

It's not just one or two cruise lines...it's a lot of them, so I have to assume they have a good reason for doing business in this way, because I would think it would cause all kinds of aggravation for the cruise lines themselves.

 

I know it certainly causes a lot of heated discourse on these boards. :(

 

I keep waiting to hear that someone has done their grad thesis on this, laying out all of the actual facts. Maybe then something will actually be done about rejigging this whole very inefficient system. ;)

 

I think the facts have been laid out over and over again on these boards. Some people just don't like the facts. That doesn't keep them from being the facts.

 

I personally find the system quite efficient. I leave the autotips in place and then tip extra to those I choose to tip extra. That way nobody gets stiffed and the people who get the extra cash tips get to keep them.

[terrierjohn]

Have I missed something? did I say that I wasn't going to tip or couldn't afford to do so? No ...thought not, I bring things to the board to be discussed, I put forward the thoughts about the tips on behalf of those who think it but don't say it! I asked a regular cruiser today what he thought of the level of tips on US ships & that they require tips from children & he was literally horrified.

John, the tip issue has been battered to death over the years and it still seems to cause friction between Nth Americans and a fair percentage of the rest of us. But we are never going to get the Americans to fully sympathise with our point of view, and equally we are never going to accept that their concept of tipping is sensible.

So, while I enjoy a good argument as much as anyone, this is probably one subject that's best left to a late night drinking session in an isolated bar somewhere.

[uktog]

What is even more annoying is that the restaurant management etc are doing nothing to deal with this generalisation of "north americans tip; europeans do not" and in fact are openly discussing this with passengers. We noticed a considerable difference in service on recent Celebrity trips between tables, one table having predominantly UK and European guests and the other having North Americans.

It seems that this open discussion involving managers is encouraging staff to differential their service levels - whilst this is human nature from the front line service deliverers, their managers should not be discussing it with them or other passengers.

I think there should be more professionalism shown by restaurant managers etc on this matter - often as a manager you have to handle situations where whilst facts may present themselves to you, you have to manage the situation to avoid a self-perpetuating spiral arising

 

Oh and by the way for the record, we always prepay our tips and give additional rewards to those who go the extra mile during the cruise. We have no strong views as to whether the sum we are being asked to pay are too high or too low

[UKBayern]

John & John, both.... you are right. :) We will also never convince the regular Joe from north of the mexican border (this goes for both USA and CA) that a european waiter expects at least some tips even if he gets paid a little more than his US counterpart and is not totally dependent on tips.

 

And: most north-Americans turn out to be generally lousy tippers when over here: which is exactly what they object to us doing when 'over there' :confused:.

 

If you offer a bit of advice to change tipping habits you are either ignored or slaughtered. It seems to make no difference which 'side' of the argument (or pond) ;)we are on.

[Johnthed0g]

We go on different cruise lines, in fact our next is on Eclipse....WE KNOW all about the tips & WE adhere to the customs, but the thing I am mainly trying to get over is a heck of a lot won't realise, as I mentioned earlier I met someone yesterday who cruises on P&O but was literally ''open mouthed'' horrified at the amount he would be expected to tip, not because he is mean or poor just that he, as a lot do over here, regard a tip as a ''thank you'' not part of the wage structure.#

Won't be around for a couple of days ...off to show the dogs at Crufts.

[FinelyCruising]

John what breed of dogs do you show?

[maxamize]

That’s nonsense. Europeans are not used to paying a standard 18% tip. In Europe you tip when receiving good and excellent service ranging anywhere from 10% to 20%. In the US there is the strange system where you always have tip and most of the time at a minimum of 18%. :confused: A tip is a nice extra that you give to show appreciation not as a required part of the bill

[Denny01]

.......

So, while I enjoy a good argument as much as anyone, this is probably one subject that's best left to a late night drinking session in an isolated bar somewhere.

Why ruin a good drinking time discussing such a meaningless subject - let's spend the time discussing sex, politics or religion.

 

Denny

[ChrissyUK]

All this arises because "tips" mean different things in the US than Europe. As many people have said we understand "tips" to mean a little extra for good service. Personally we ALWAYS tip over the suggested amount but always ask for the prepayment to be removed from our account. We prefer, and do not feel awkward doing so, to give our tips, in cash, directly into the hands of those who have given us such a good service. (that has even included the guy standing at the entrace to the dining room with the hand santizer because he was alway happy and would ask you about your day).That way we definitely know they have received it. Only once have we not done so. Our stateroom assistant introduced herself on the first day and we never saw her again until the penultimate day when she was there all smiles. However, her assistant was always around, did all the work as far as we could see, and was very helpful to us. I'm afraid he got her share.

 

Please don't think that just because someone removes the prepayment from their account that the staff don't get their tips. It is just not our culture to tip a waiter on our way into the restaurant.

 

And, for the record, I think it would be much easier all round if the companies paid their staff apropriately and just included it all in the "up front" price of the cruise. That way we would all know where we were.

 

Hapy cruising everyone.:D

[JuPe]

We prefer, and do not feel awkward doing so, to give our tips, in cash, directly into the hands of those who have given us such a good service. (that has even included the guy standing at the entrace to the dining room with the hand santizer because he was alway happy and would ask you about your day).That way we definitely know they have received it.

I still don't understand how that would benefit more the staff that you have personally tipped, since if I have understood correctly all tips (direct cash or prepaid) must go in a common tip pool from which it is redistributed. Or haven't I understood correctly...?

[bobbyleduck]

I still don't understand how that would benefit more the staff that you have personally tipped, since if I have understood correctly all tips (direct cash or prepaid) must go in a common tip pool from which it is redistributed. Or haven't I understood correctly...?

 

No common pool!

 

Happy cruising to all!

 

Bob

[bobbyleduck]

Here is a question that I never see answered. Are the recommended tipping amounts set higher than what they should be, based upon the fact that 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 percent or more of the people don't pay anything or substantially less than the recommended amount? We all know that some people tip extra, some tip the recommended amount, some tip less and some don't tip at all. So, again I ask, are the recommended tipping amounts higher than they would need to be if everybody tipped a reasonable amount?

 

I ask this, because it was reported a few years ago that the average waiter/waitress aboard the three major cruiselines received $3,000 a month, tax free, and that was after food, housing and medical.

 

Here is my point. If the recommended amount is $11 a day, per person, but the average amount, when all the excess tippers, recommended tippers, less than recommended tippers and non tippers are combined, is $8.50 a day, and that works, then why not just have a service charge of $8.50 per day, per person and don't make the excess tipper and recommended tippers subsidize the rest?

 

What say you?

 

Happy cruising to all!

 

Bob

[FinelyCruising]

I'd say it would be hard for a family of 4 to live on $36,000 annually net of the costs you indicated above.

 

Take now food for the family, housing, automobile if owned, clothing and phone and it can't be much left even if you are a magician at budgeting.

 

This keeps going round and round. maybe now with the much more active participation of Europen guests and their feedback here on thesde boards in recent time, Celebrity will be enlightened and take a new approach.

[Garibo]

Take now food for the family, housing, automobile if owned, clothing and phone and it can't be much left even if you are a magician at budgeting.

 

I think you forget that most of the staff come from third world countries where everything is much much cheaper and things like cars are only owned by the very wealthy.

[scotlanders]

This has been a real hot topic. We have cruised many times & understand that US cruise line "tips" are actually wages & so we always prepay with cost of cruise & then tip for above & beyond which I'm happy to say we do on a regular basis.

 

However I have to say my mother "bless her" & her friends in late 70's early 80's can't get their heads around this and I know they tip as they would at home. I personally gave our joint waiters etc extra cash on the last evening & had to explain that British pensioners who save for 2/3 years for a cruise vacation & watch their pennies fearfully feel resentful at paying wages when they feel they have already paid them to cruise lines. It's this food inclusive costing that attracts them to cruising. My mother would pay it without complaint if cost was included in cruise fare. They are from a generation that rarely ate out & worked very hard for other people without ever, ever receiving a tip.

 

Cruise fares should be tips included & all cruise line staff should be protected by minimum wages set by an independant body.

[brfan]

Here is a question that I never see answered. Are the recommended tipping amounts set higher than what they should be, based upon the fact that 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 percent or more of the people don't pay anything or substantially less than the recommended amount? We all know that some people tip extra, some tip the recommended amount, some tip less and some don't tip at all. So, again I ask, are the recommended tipping amounts higher than they would need to be if everybody tipped a reasonable amount?

 

I ask this, because it was reported a few years ago that the average waiter/waitress aboard the three major cruiselines received $3,000 a month, tax free, and that was after food, housing and medical.

 

Here is my point. If the recommended amount is $11 a day, per person, but the average amount, when all the excess tippers, recommended tippers, less than recommended tippers and non tippers are combined, is $8.50 a day, and that works, then why not just have a service charge of $8.50 per day, per person and don't make the excess tipper and recommended tippers subsidize the rest?

 

What say you?

 

Happy cruising to all!

 

Bob

 

How do you know it is tax free? I'm sure many if not all crew members must pay a tax in their home country on the income they earn. Plus they may have free housing, etc, on the ship, but they have all those costs to pay at home.

[Happy Cruiser 6143]

Personally we ALWAYS tip over the suggested amount but always ask for the prepayment to be removed from our account. We prefer, and do not feel awkward doing so, to give our tips, in cash, directly into the hands of those who have given us such a good service. (that has even included the guy standing at the entrace to the dining room with the hand santizer because he was alway happy and would ask you about your day).That way we definitely know they have received it.:D

 

Just so you know, when you remove the prepaid tips from your account and hand out tips in cash to a select few, they must turn those tips in to be divided among the people who would have received the tips had you just left the autotip in place. So you are, in effect, stiffing those you wish to reward. If you leave the autotips in place, then the people you give any extra tips to are free to keep them.

[JEDIKNIGHT]

I often hear Europeans speaking of how Americans need not bring along their 'traditions' and 'customs' when traveling abroad.

 

Funny how some non-Americans want to do just that................especially where it comes to tipping a few bucks to someone who is probably just trying to feed their family halfway around the world.

[Freecall]

I chose to go on an amercian cruise line and so therefore abide by the normal rules that apply .

 

What I cannot stand is all the whinging by cruisers who know exactly what is the norm then complain all day long about tipping . Please stay at home and spare the rest of us .

 

Scotslizzy

 

Hear, hear!

[derekthesailor]

Of course the whole idea of not paying the crew and relying on tipping was developed by Samuel Cunard, who was Canadian born, running a British shipping company, carrying mainly Americans. No wonder the subject is confused !!!

 

My tupenny worth is this.

 

All the hotel staff except the most senior are included in the tip pool, not just the "front of house" staff. This means that the unseen guys, washer-uppers, potato scrubbers, cleaners etc. that we don't normally come across are included.

The envelope you feel so good about giving to your wait staff is added to the pool, unless you have kept the automatic gratuity in place.

 

For over 20 years as an engineer on passenger ships I never received a tip, but I got a living wage. The international hotel staff are generally very poorly paid, and often have to pay a large fee (bribe) to an employment agency to get a job in the first place.

Until there enforceable international law to pay all crew properly please keep paying your tips, either through automatic payment or individually, and the sooner the tips are included in the up-front price the better.

[lhf]

Whether by cash or automatic deduction, I have always paid gratuities on all the 16 cruises I have taken. In a few months, I will be on the Eclipse sailing from Southampton and I gather that most of the passengers will be Brits and other Europeans. I gather too that it is not their custom to pay gratuities (tips) and so they probably won't.

 

Since they will be getting the same service as I will, why should I pay the suggested gratuity? I am not seeking to short change the crew (I already have the funds) but I am beginning to think it does not make sense for me to pay it.

 

What are your thoughts? Spare me the abusive types, please.

 

I'm from Europe, Norway, and we always pay our gratuities. How can you say that most European don't? We are not used to your tip-system in Norway, but we would never think of not tipping the staff as it is a big part of their salary, I guess

[FinelyCruising]

Just so you know, when you remove the prepaid tips from your account and hand out tips in cash to a select few, they must turn those tips in to be divided among the people who would have received the tips had you just left the autotip in place. So you are, in effect, stiffing those you wish to reward. If you leave the autotips in place, then the people you give any extra tips to are free to keep them.

 

I don't think this is true, the pool part. There may be some trickle down to some other less obvious staff, but amounts conveyed to the wait staff for example, do indeed go directly to them. Ditto for the cabin staff.

[karpela]

I have never cruised before and have our 1st cruise booked this May. One of the things I have always known about cruising was the tipping, so when our TA gave us the option to pre-pay it seemed the obvious option.

You know you have to tip so why not pay up front that way you don't need to worry about not doing the right thing.

All this cruise ettiquette is confusing me. :rolleyes:

[bobbyleduck]

Just so you know, when you remove the prepaid tips from your account and hand out tips in cash to a select few, they must turn those tips in to be divided among the people who would have received the tips had you just left the autotip in place. So you are, in effect, stiffing those you wish to reward. If you leave the autotips in place, then the people you give any extra tips to are free to keep them.

 

Wrong! There is no pooling of tips.

 

brfan: You said, "How do you know it is tax free? I'm sure many if not all crew members must pay a tax in their home country on the income they earn. Plus they may have free housing, etc, on the ship, but they have all those costs to pay at home."

 

I know, because Bob Dickinson, former president and CEO of Carnival reported such in his book "$elling the $eas." What if the cruise ship is their home? If you pay close attention, you'll find that most of these people are single, or attached to someone aboard ship, and the ship is their home.

 

Happy cruising to all!

 

Bob

[bobbyleduck]

I'd say it would be hard for a family of 4 to live on $36,000 annually net of the costs you indicated above.

 

My wife and I, as I have indicated previously, live on about $1,000 a month, and that includes paying for all of those things mentioned. Of our approximately $2,400 a month net, we also save $1,000 a month and contribute $400 a month to the upkeep of my dear MIL. We're also able to go on cruises and other vacations as well. We have no debt, and paid for our home in two years, 14 years ago.

 

Yes! I know, that I'm better at handling money than are most people, and that is why I work as a full-time, volunteer, personal finance educator, but if we can do that then others can live on more than three times the amount we do. In fact, I believe there are more people who do as well or better than we do than you'd imagine.

 

Happy cruising to all!

 

Bob