Europeans (and Brits), Me & Gratuities

[UKBayern]

It is my understanding, from the way the cruise line business model is structured as well as associated tax implications, that moving to a "service charge" model will result, ultimately, in the price of the basic cruise fare going up in two ways: (1) the addition of the "service charge" that will replace the gratuities and (2) the addition of a further amount to cover the extra taxes and administration costs that would be incurred when cruise lines move to the "service charge" model.

 

It has been suggested on these boards, by people who appear to have some grasp of the finances involved, that the cost that will be passed on for extra taxes and administration will be in the area of 20%.

 

I am SO tired of these tipping threads and all of the issues involved in ensuring that cruise line staff get fair wages, that I am ready to pay the extra costs that would be incurred by moving to the "service charge" model.

 

How is it that people can't understand the simple fact that, whether you pay up front in terms of a "service charge", or after the fact, in terms of "gratuities", either way it is the passenger that is going to pay the bill for the work that staff does on their behalf.

 

That is then a difference in US tax law and income tax in the European countries where we know how the tax works. 'Over here' tax is due on all income the taxman hears about including tips. That means only cash tips can be hidden from the authorities although if you were a waiter it might be wise to declare some of that income, as it will be improbable that you have zero tips. By declaring tips as income you lose about 20-50% depending on country and income level.

Tips you get by bank transfer or in the paypacket from your employer are traceable and therefore taxable.

[Waterlily777]

That is then a difference in US tax law and income tax in the European countries where we know how the tax works. 'Over here' tax is due on all income the taxman hears about including tips. That means only cash tips can be hidden from the authorities although if you were a waiter it might be wise to declare some of that income, as it will be improbable that you have zero tips. By declaring tips as income you lose about 20-50% depending on country and income level.

Tips you get by bank transfer or in the paypacket from your employer are traceable and therefore taxable.

 

This is not my field of expertise, so I'm hoping that someone will step in and answer here.

 

What I understood, though, was that the issue is complicated because other countries and their tax structures are involved (home countries of service staff), and other issues come into play.

[Denny01]

If you are surprised we North Americans are confused by European and Brit tipping customs, just read through this thread. The great majority of statements don't agree and some disagree with themselves half way throught the post:

- "German waitstaff make good money and aren't tipped" - "German waiters make low wages and we tip....."

- "We Europeans tip - we leave the change from a bill". My comment: that's tipping? That's "I don't want that change gingling around in my pocket".

- And my favorite - "we pay the gratutity but we resent it when there is poor service"..... and the following sentence: "we've never received bad service on any of our cruises". What???

- "I resent people always saying the Brits do't tip", followed by...."I believe there will be a big problem on US ships cruising out of the UK". Two Brits posting.

 

And on and on. I know, we all have opinons and we even disagree wth our own point we think we are making half way through our own post, so that is why we North Americans are confused a bit, just as the Brits and Euros are also confused. And by the way, my specific experience is the only people I've heard complaining on the ship (this forum doesn't count), and one's who pulled their auto-tip off their bill because they wanted to "pay it with cash at the end" (yeah, right...) were good Ole fellow USofA people.

 

My favorite story:

First cruise ever was on a Carnival ship in '95 when you paid cash via envelope. Being newbes, we worried about it and before getting on, we made sure we had the right amounts for each envelope! We brought our envelopes to the dinner as did the Netherlands couple and Chicago couple we ate with. The Texans came in (and yes, he wore his ballcap!), asked us what the envelopes were for - told them and the wife said, 'lets go back to our SR (a Suite!) and get our envelopes'. They left...I noted that I thought the envelope didn't weigh that much and it shouldn't take both of them to carry it, and also noted, we were seeing the last of them. And of course I was right - didn't take a brain surgeon on that one!

 

And no flames from our Lone Star posters - just add a bit to your tip next time to make up for that 'lovley example of Southern Hospitality'.

 

Denny

[dzcruisers]

Yes he did and my answer directly addresses it..... the MIS-named 'tips' are making the difference between a living wage and slave labour.

I'm sure there is hardly anyone who would exploit his fellow man that badly anymore.

Do we want to be part of that? No, so we pay. Properly, these wages should be called 'service charge' and be priced into the cruise or made mandatory.

 

If tips (service charges) are priced into the cruise so would a mandatory markup (profit) and taxes have to be priced in. This way, believe it or not, works best for the passengers and cruiseline.

The majority of wait staff in the US makes way below minimum wage and depends on tips for the majority of their income. So thus US passengers are used to tipping. Some don't. Some jump checks in restaurants. The wait staff has to pay. There are lots of different kinds of people out there.

[FinelyCruising]

I think there may be some tax/employer implications for the cruise line for an additional burden (don't misunderstand the use of the term burden in this instance) that would make it difficult to just change the policy without having the guest absorb that liability of burden too.

[ECCruise]

Yes... but you talk as if they didn't get paid for doing the job at all by the cruise line, a tip is extra as an appreciation of good service as a ''thank you'' not their wages for doing the job.

 

Yes, they are "paid" by the cruiseline. Their wages are $50 per MONTH for 10-12 hours per day, 7 days per week. That converts to about .15 (that is 15 CENTS) per hour. This is what they revert to when tips are not paid, or removed. And, believe me, it happens much more frequently than many let on. Their tips ARE their wages for all intents and purposes and many do not understand that, evidenced by the referenced post.

[excitedofharpenden]

Yes... but you talk as if they didn't get paid for doing the job at all by the cruise line, a tip is extra as an appreciation of good service as a ''thank you'' not their wages for doing the job.

I wasn't saying that. Read the part of your post that I quoted and my response. It was specifically the point that thirty quid each for four nights isn't "very high".

 

Phil

[Ine]

On all our cruises we always tipped at least the minimum of what nowadays is $ 11.- per person per day. Often we tip more when we are happy with the service of the tablewaiter and cabincrew.

Indeed cruiselines better call this a service-charge to avoid misunderstandings, maybe even charge it on the dailybill compulsary as tipping sounds too voluntary. Also confusing is the 15% servicecharge on drinks.

Also not all travelagents/cruiselines inform their (european) passengers well in advance of this (or only in the small print) so to some it may come as an unpleasant surprise when receiving tickets etc.

[ShareViews]

What a can of worms? And a hot topic, isn't it? A couple of things I wish to point out though:

• Some did not read my opening post properly before replying and so made comments that were off the mark.
  
• I think some others have read too much into what I was asking.
  
• I am not into Brits bashing and I am not an American (Will this latter unearth more worms?) in case anyone was using this as a position from which to argue.
  
• I subsequently qualified my OP that I was merely stating what others mentioned about regional customs.
  

Anyway, thanks again. In fact, I did pick up on a few useful insights.

[Johnthed0g]

I wasn't saying that. Read the part of your post that I quoted and my response. It was specifically the point that thirty quid each for four nights isn't "very high".

 

Phil

Well I think an extra £30 each for just doing their job over 4 days is extremely high, compared with what we are used to at say P&O...twice as much actually. I will not be alone thinking this, nor will I be alone thinking it a bit much to expect children & even babies to tip too.

I don't see why we should have to make up wages in a job people have chosen to do, now I don't know what the average wage is where the staff originate from, but I presume what they are offered as a basic wage is attractive.

[Michidoeme]

Why do you assume Europeans don't tip when travelling ? I think this is a bit very presumptious.

 

We live in Switzerland and are used to tips being included in the price of meals, hairdresser, etc. and do not feel we have to add tips here and mostly don't (we do sometimes give something extra when we feel it was really earned).

However, if we travel to other countries like USA, we know and accept the local customs and knowing that the tips are not included there and that for waiters, maids, etc. it is the main part of their income, we certainly tip as well.

 

When booking for a cruise last Fall, we learned about the gratuities and we certainly lived by the rules, agreed to automatic deductions and gave out a bit more in person to the staff that we thought deserved it.

[C 2 C]

Why do you assume Europeans don't tip when travelling ? I think this is a bit very presumptious. .

 

When my waiter, assistant maitre'd and hotel manager tell me that the Majority of Europeans did not tip the "suggested" service charge (tip) on recent voyages and that they were collectively relieved to be sailing in the North American region again, and that our favorite waiter asked to be transferred to a ship away from Europeans because of miserly tips, then I no longer assume it's the case but that I'm listening to people in the trenches who have suffered as a result.

I assume however that (most) Europeans who read cruise critic know the level of suggested service charge (tips) and that this horrible state of affairs does not refer to them.

When a topic such as this is covered so often with the same accusations and the same excuses, there must be some truth to the "assumption". It is always dangerous to make a general statement. I'm positive that not everyone tips according to the guidelines. I'm positive that some people pay way more than what is suggested. Somewhere between the two extremes the truth exists.

But the old saying "Where there is smoke, there is fire" applies when dealing with this topic.

[terrierjohn]

Well I think an extra £30 each for just doing their job over 4 days is extremely high, compared with what we are used to at say P&O...twice as much actually. I will not be alone thinking this, nor will I be alone thinking it a bit much to expect children & even babies to tip too.

I don't see why we should have to make up wages in a job people have chosen to do, now I don't know what the average wage is where the staff originate from, but I presume what they are offered as a basic wage is attractive.

John, like you I think that $11.00pp/d is very high for those of us used to UK tips, but these are not really tips they constitute the major part of the service staff wages and without it they would be grossly underpaid. You just have to follow the old maxim, "When in Rome etc....."

As for P&O tip levels, because of the perilous state of our economy and the weak value of the pound, you can be certain that P&O will be revising their recommended tipping values upwards and if that does not work they also will, as likely as not, introduce an auto tip system.

There is only one solution to not paying the full amount and that is to cruise with a line that includes gratuities like Thomson, but don't cheat the service staff by not paying the full amount. You just need to budget the tip into your cruise cost, and maybe smuggle an extra bottle of spirits on board and have two pre dinner drinks in your cabin instead of one.

[Johnthed0g]

John, like you I think that $11.00pp/d is very high for those of us used to UK tips, but these are not really tips they constitute the major part of the service staff wages and without it they would be grossly underpaid. You just have to follow the old maxim, "When in Rome etc....."

As for P&O tip levels, because of the perilous state of our economy and the weak value of the pound, you can be certain that P&O will be revising their recommended tipping values upwards and if that does not work they also will, as likely as not, introduce an auto tip system.

There is only one solution to not paying the full amount and that is to cruise with a line that includes gratuities like Thomson, but don't cheat the service staff by not paying the full amount. You just need to budget the tip into your cruise cost, and maybe smuggle an extra bottle of spirits on board and have two pre dinner drinks in your cabin instead of one.

Have I missed something? did I say that I wasn't going to tip or couldn't afford to do so? No ...thought not, I bring things to the board to be discussed, I put forward the thoughts about the tips on behalf of those who think it but don't say it! I asked a regular cruiser today what he thought of the level of tips on US ships & that they require tips from children & he was literally horrified.

[Waterlily777]

Yes... but you talk as if they didn't get paid for doing the job at all by the cruise line, a tip is extra as an appreciation of good service as a ''thank you'' not their wages for doing the job.

 

John, you did me a kindness on these boards once, and I have not forgotten it, so I would like to work at this until you can understand the situation with the tipping model currently employed on most cruise ships that have North American head offices.

 

You asked if you are missing something, and I think that you are.

 

From your post above, and others, it appears that you think that waiters and cabin stewards receive a wage from the cruise line, and that tips are 'extra", or a small top-up to show appreciation.

 

This is NOT the case for most cruiselines that are head-officed in North America.

 

Waiters and cabin stewards are only paid a monthly stipend of approximately $50 (in RCCL and Celebrity's case).

 

98% of their wages comes from tips.

 

If we don't pay our gratuities, it comes out of their pay packets.

 

(This information has been confirmed by posters to CC such as R. del Pappa, a former Celebrity Food and Beverage Manager. You can go back and find the post that this information came from on January 26, 2008 at 8:46 pm. He also outlines his work history with RCCL, NCL and Celebrity on that post. Other cruise line employes have also validated this rate, and I, personally, have seen a copy of the RCCL contract.)

 

Waiters and room stewards work 12 hours per day, seven days per week, for the length of their cruise contract, which may be 6 or nine months. Waiters rotate weekly through the other food stations, working in the buffet during breakfast and lunch. Our assistant waiter from the MDR on our last cruise worked in the buffet for breakfast, worked two shifts in the MDR and also worked in the Cova Cafe from 11:00 pm until midnight. I have been told by stewards a number of times that they begin work at 5:00 am, have a few hours off during the day, and may still be bringing you room service at 11:00 pm.

 

I don't think that anyone would disagree that the service staff deserve their wages. Whether passengers pay up front as part of their cruise fare, or after the fact, through gratuities, it is still going to be the passenger that pays for the labour of the serving staff.

 

People may want to argue that the gratuity amount should be included in the cruise fare, and I agree, but apparently, for structural reasons, this is not the economic model of choice for mainstream cruise lines. Until that changes, we have an obligation to make sure that the staff is fairly paid by paying our gratuities.

 

When people don't pay the suggested gratuity amount, they have their hands in the pockets of these kind and hard-working people who do so much to make our vacations enjoyable.

[Durkman]

Here are my thoughts--cribbed from a post on another thread (you might be surprised to know that the topic of gratuities has come up before! ;)):

...unfortunately I think the problem is that the cruise lines (and servers) treat tips as a de facto part of the server's salary, and if they remove these "tips" for those who went to the specialty restaurants instead of the MDR they'd be taking money (i.e., expected salary) out of the pocket of the MDR server.

 

IMO it's complete BS that the system has to be set up this way to ensure the servers get a fair wage. And, BTW, how do we even know that all of our prepaid gratuities are going to the servers and that -X- and other cruise lines are not skimming off the top for "administrative costs"?

 

I'm with others who think that gratuities should be included in the base fare of the cruise and optional (but not expected) tips could be provided at the passenger's discretion to reward great service. When I book a cruise I automatically consider the gratuity (pre-paid or otherwise) as part of my cost of going on the cruise so it doesn't bother me to pre-pay it. I just wish the cruise lines didn't assign the risk of cheap passengers stiffing the staff to the staff themselves--that risk should be eliminated (by rolling gratuities into the cost of the cruise and paying the servers accordingly) or assumed by the cruise lines.

The bottom line, IMO, is that between the cruise lines, service staff and passengers/guests, the service staff have the least amount of "bargaining power" and should not bear the risk of having their salary decreased because of cultural differences in tipping policies or just plain old cheapskate passengers. That risk should be borne by the cruise lines or eliminated altogether.

[keela1eva2]

I too live in the UK but am Irish by birth!! i know that there is a lot of discussion about tips.

I have pre paid my tips when booking my past 2 Cruises and just find it easier all round. This will be 17 cruises with X and on every occassion I have tipped well over the recommended amount. Not just to the Waiters Room Stewards but also to perhaps someone I see cleaning around the Ship or in the Restrooms etc.

I very much resent the assumption that none of the UK or European guests do NOT tip. Yes there may be some but that does not make a barrell full of bad apples!!

 

Sue

[FinelyCruising]

When my waiter, assistant maitre'd and hotel manager tell me that the Majority of Europeans did not tip the "suggested" service charge (tip) on recent voyages and that they were collectively relieved to be sailing in the North American region again, and that our favorite waiter asked to be transferred to a ship away from Europeans because of miserly tips, then I no longer assume it's the case but that I'm listening to people in the trenches who have suffered as a result.

I assume however that (most) Europeans who read cruise critic know the level of suggested service charge (tips) and that this horrible state of affairs does not refer to them.

When a topic such as this is covered so often with the same accusations and the same excuses, there must be some truth to the "assumption". It is always dangerous to make a general statement. I'm positive that not everyone tips according to the guidelines. I'm positive that some people pay way more than what is suggested. Somewhere between the two extremes the truth exists.

But the old saying "Where there is smoke, there is fire" applies when dealing with this topic.

 

I think that is very wrong to say people from different cultures where this kind of conveyance does not occur are miserly.

 

It is not a universal custom, and its one that is not easily undertstood on an economic level. If some international guests are unwilling to accept the idea then leave them alone. The staff is international, this is not news to them, I expect they are quite worldly based on their interntional opportunities and through all of their associates I'll bet they know what to expect.

 

I don't think the failure to agree to a new custom is being done out of malice or to hurt anyone, I think it is being ignored due to the lack of agreement over it, and to me that is fair approach. The cruise line really has no right to tell anyone what to do, and may really be expecting too much by ignoring the diverse make up of its passenger base and how the specific customs of international guests affect the staff base.

 

Until a different and seamless system gets worked out that is more beneficial to the staff and their livelihood, then it is what it is. If a worker is not happy they should ask to move on to another opportunity, they are there to make a living.

 

Both sides can each state their rationale and explain it so it is understood, but each is so polarized by history and their personal stake in it that its a hard bridge to cross despite intellectulalizing it by either side.

[Garibo]

I think that is very wrong to say people from different cultures where this kind of conveyance does not occur are miserly.

 

It is not a universal custom, and its one that is not easily undertstood on an economic level. If some international guests are unwilling to accept the idea then leave them alone. The staff is international, this is not news to them, I expect they are quite worldly based on their interntional opportunities and through all of their associates I'll bet they know what to expect.

 

I don't think the failure to agree to a new custom is being done out of malice or to hurt anyone, I think it is being ignored due to the lack of agreement over it, and to me that is fair approach. The cruise line really has no right to tell anyone what to do, and may really be expecting too much by ignoring the diverse make up of its passenger base and how the specific customs of international guests affect the staff base.

 

Until a different and seamless system gets worked out that is more beneficial to the staff and their livelihood, then it is what it is. If a worker is not happy they should ask to move on to another opportunity, they are there to make a living.

 

Both sides can each state their rationale and explain it so it is understood, but each is so polarized by history and their personal stake in it that its a hard bridge to cross despite intellectulalizing it by either side.

 

Best post I've read on any tipping thread.

[C 2 C]

that our favorite waiter asked to be transferred to a ship away from Europeans because of miserly tips

 

I think that is very wrong to say people from different cultures where this kind of conveyance does not occur are miserly.

 

 

Again what I posted and how you interpreted the statement are at odds.:rolleyes:

 

The maitre D' told me that my favorite waiter was no longer on board because on previous cruises the tips had been miserly.

When the people on board state that the level of income derived from Europeans is less than the level suggested in print to every passenger on board is less than the suggested service charge or tip you can use any euphemism you wish but the end result is that staff suffers. Whether this is because of cultural differences, cultural ignorance, forgetfulness, inability to read, anger at the cruiseline or any other way you wish to interpret staff's dislike of European tipping practices, the end result is the same. The staff on board do not enjoy the same level of compensation from passengers sailing in European waters that they do in North American routes, depending of course on the number of "different cultures."

[Johnthed0g]

Waterlily, thanks for taking the time to explain, but it is very difficult to grasp that in this day & age a major international Company like a cruise line could, & be allowed to operate such an unfair & unsatisfactory method of paying staff. As an aside, has anyone ever worked out how much say a cabin steward would actually earn a month. Also if all the say 3,000 passengers pay $10 each a day that is $30k a DAY being raked in in tips..a lot don't you think? I don't begrudge the staff a living wage, I always pay what is asked, I just think the employer should pay it & not rely on us.

[Infinatic]

Also if all the say 3,000 passengers pay $10 each a day that is $30k a DAY being raked in in tips..a lot don't you think? I don't begrudge the staff a living wage, I always pay what is asked, I just think the employer should pay it & not rely on us.

 

3,000 passengers, perhaps 1,000 crew: $30,000 would give each about $30.00 per day. If only half are "tip-entitled" that is still only about $60.00 pp per day for a minimum 10 hour day.

 

I know the math is a bit off. I agree the employer does not pay. It's how the system is set up. The "tips" should be included. The price would be $10 pp per day more than it is now. The system sucks but if you know about it, don't punish the guys that do the work. Punish the cruise line by booking only cruises where worker compensation is included.

[keela1eva2]

Equally it has been said to me that certain Crew wish to work in Europe and elsewhere and not just to remain in the US market.

ENOUGH SAID!

 

Sue

[ShareViews]

I just figured out that, including my upcoming cruise, I will have paid approximately US$ 2,600 in gratuities. Not an untidey sum, is it? Now that my cruise habit is winding down, I guess I'd better start putting the money towards my funeral expenses! I've had a good fill of cruising.

 

I have always paid the cabin steward the at least the required amount, if not more. Once I paid the assistant waiter more as he did a much better job than the waiter (who was less helpful).

 

I know automatic tipping is much easier but I never had a problem handling the envelopes and I knew who was getting the money. With auto tipping I don't quite know who else is in the pool. I wonder if the captain gets a % cut? (Tongue in cheek, of course. Don't descend on me).

[Waterlily777]

Waterlily, thanks for taking the time to explain, but it is very difficult to grasp that in this day & age a major international Company like a cruise line could, & be allowed to operate such an unfair & unsatisfactory method of paying staff. As an aside, has anyone ever worked out how much say a cabin steward would actually earn a month. Also if all the say 3,000 passengers pay $10 each a day that is $30k a DAY being raked in in tips..a lot don't you think? I don't begrudge the staff a living wage, I always pay what is asked, I just think the employer should pay it & not rely on us.

 

Hi John:

 

It's not just one or two cruise lines...it's a lot of them, so I have to assume they have a good reason for doing business in this way, because I would think it would cause all kinds of aggravation for the cruise lines themselves.

 

I know it certainly causes a lot of heated discourse on these boards. :(

 

I keep waiting to hear that someone has done their grad thesis on this, laying out all of the actual facts. Maybe then something will actually be done about rejigging this whole very inefficient system. ;)