New passport/birth certificate policy for cruise lines?

[tef43]

After reading my posts it sounds as if I have it out for Cops, I do not and have tremendous respect for them and have many of them as friends especially since my Brother works for the Chicago Police, not as a Cop, but because he works there I have become friends with many and have many good customers in my suburb who I have gotten to know over the years through my business..In Illinois, I dont know if you are aware since it was Big News here a year or so ago, that the Governor actually had to put a stop to any Death Paenalties being carried out because so many on death row have been released in the past few years after new eveidence (and in many evidence hidden by Prosecutors or Cops) was found that actually exonerated these people. Not isolated cases either but a huge pattern of Official misconduct from the Police through the Prosecution offices. Our history is full of the Government overstepping their bounds and ignoring the rights given all of us, including kids at school, and if we allow them further power and a further dilution of our rights than we are giving up the freedoms and rights our predecessors died for and are making a mockery of trying to bring these rights to tohers, such as Iraq right now, if we cant maintain our own. It, to me, is also another way Bin Laden has reached his goal if he can turn our country into something it has never been before and that is something I refuse to do, if for any reason but to remember those who lost their lives in 9/11 and the brave soldiers who are searching for him today. It is up to all of us, our responsibility, to preserve this way of life and all the freedoms we enjoy for future generations just as past generations did it for us.We can not give up or allow these rights to be diluted because of Bin Laden and give our Governmant more power than they need to protect and keep this country safe. Now its searching kids lockers and private belongings just because they are in school because of Columbine and now is instead used for other purposes, our cars when pulled over for a minor traffic offense from the war on drugs and other dilutions of our rights that have transpired over the last decade or two. It is a slippery slope and one which goes so slowly we dont notice until its too late. Just because I have nothing to hide doesnt mean I should be subjected to searches and allow my property, or my kids to be searched for no reason. Many many innocent lives were ruined in very recent history when we gave the Government too much power by turning a blind eye to what was happening. Both our security and our rights can be preserced if we demand this of our Government, if we turn a blind eye our rights will continue to be diluted and in time our own security through the dilution of these rights because than we will have to fear not just Bin Laden but our own Government too. That is something I do not wish to leave to my kids or future generations.

Please diagram these sentences. :p

[ConquestMike]

Lockers were searched long before Columbine. Schools have the right to search for drugs and weapons in children's lockers. They're searching their own property and enforcing the law. There is a balance between too much government interference and too little. I have no issue with searches for illegal substances. Children do not have the same rights as adults. If they did, they could live alone at 3. That's called child abandonment and no one has an issue with investigating or removing a child from an abusive or abandoned situation, just dont' search their locker for substances that might kill them or others. That logic doesn't work.

Passports are not a big deal. Crack open that wallet and spend a few bucks on something besides what most spend on a cruise (drinking, gambling, tours, etc). LIke I said before your passport is asking for information that already exists on other government documentation, your birth cert and driver's license.

HMMMM Children are not afforded the right to not be illegally searched, thats news to me!!! I guess I missed that one in the Constitution, what page might that be on please?? Drug sniffing dogs can go up and down the hall and be at one central entrance where all kids have to enter through to handle the drug side which would be more valuable than searches as the dogs are much better at finding drugs than humans.., they also have weapons sniffing dogs that can smell explosives such as Gun Powder so the same can be used to control this if they think there may be a problem and metal dtectors are installed in many schools already so this would be yet another avenue. In addition to this I dont think checking a locker of someone they have a reasonable suspicion of is wrong either. Safety and security can be had without the expense of taking away anyones rights regardless of age.In these ways it would be more effective and cheaper too than having a force of police searching lockers randomly and taking away rights of the innocent.

Second, kids lack rights to do certain things and make decisions about certain things until they reach the age of reason and in those years a responsible adult/parent is to make these decisions for them and protect them. Abandoment of children is a crime and therefore that needs to be investigated since a crime DID occur, we are talking of kids who have committed no crime whatsoever yet are being investigated through searches. Of course nobody questions investigating abandoment but many many people question illegal searches and how much power the Government should have. I again reiterate, where does it say there is an age limit to not have to be subjected to illegal searches, meaning obtaining a search warrant after showing just cause that the Police are going to take away someones right to not be searched before doing so..

Third, as we both agree, there has to be a balance between the power of Government to keep us secure and our own individual rights and I know this can happen without randomly searching everybody just because they are in school. Use the dogs, use metal detectors, they work in airports but wont work in schools?

Lastly searches are not exclusive to schools but happen every single day, thousands of times a day when people are pulled over for minor traffic violations. What happened to due process and obtaining search warrants? That has now been diluted, kids rights have been diluted in schools. The right to be free of being searched without just cause was put in the Constitution because the British were abusing their power and searching at will. Now we are on the same road to further and further dilute this right that our predecessors fought against. A Right that was explicitly and purposely put into the Constitution for the very reason of making sure Government does not have too much power. Where will we be in the future by allowing this further dilution to happen, where is the logic in that?? Remember, our Government didnt do enough to stop Bin Laden for years after his previous Terrorist Attacks on us before 9/11, they turned a blind eye to him in a sense and he came back and bit us in the Butt, now if we turn a blind eye to our rights being diluted I guarantee it will come back and bite us too.

[tef43]

HMMMM Children are not afforded the right to not be illegally searched

Who said *anything* about an *illegal* search? :confused:

 

The lockers *belong* to the school district. There cannot be any expectation of privacy by the student, therefore any and all searches are perfectly legal and any evidence obtained is 100% admissable.

[halos]

Mike...you can ramble f o r e v e r and it ain't gonna sway me...so fuggedaboudit.

I don't care if someone searches my locker at the gym..how many times to I have to say...I have got nothing to hide. They can search me at the gym, at the airport at the school if I seem like a threat.

This may bother you but it doesn't bother me.

If I go to a gym and they go through the lockers...I honestly don't care. What am I gonna bring to a gym to be embarrassed over? (only my body, which I happen to carry with me at all times)

 

No matter how much you go on..and on.... ;) it will not change what I feel. please stop attempting to sway me.

I am no longer moldable :D (was that this thread or was it another????)

[ConquestMike]

Who said *anything* about an *illegal* search? :confused:

 

The lockers *belong* to the school district. There cannot be any expectation of privacy by the student, therefore any and all searches are perfectly legal and any evidence obtained is 100% admissable.

Perfectly legal now but they werent 20 or 30 years ago and are the kids back packs not private property?? But I guess as long as it is the kids rights being trampled upon and not yours its ok,,,by this logic any person in any public place has given up their right to privacy and can have no expectation of privacy when they leave their homes and are subject to search for no reason at all,,,,hmmm strikes me as a Police State...and in most other contexts it is mandatory to obtain a search warrant except under very specific circumstances but in school Private belongings can be searched with no requirments being met whatsoever, I think that constitutes an illegal search and am glad there are people fighting this issue in court as we speak. The locker belongs to the school, the kids back pack's do not and is personal property and kids also have a reasonable expectation of Privacy, its not reserved for adults..:confused: :confused:

[tef43]

They can search my backpack any time they please.

 

This should not be concern of anyone unless they have something to hide.

 

Next I suppose you want to complain about your company reading the emails stored on the computer that you use at work, regardless of the fact that it is their property. Again, no expectation of privacy should be assumed. But I digress...

 

Read the Constitution carefully, "Privacy" is *not* a protected inalienable right, nor should it be. The Founding Fathers knew better.

[ConquestMike]

Mike...you can ramble f o r e v e r and it ain't gonna sway me...so fuggedaboudit.

I don't care if someone searches my locker at the gym..how many times to I have to say...I have got nothing to hide. They can search me at the gym, at the airport at the school if I seem like a threat.

This may bother you but it doesn't bother me.

If I go to a gym and they go through the lockers...I honestly don't care. What am I gonna bring to a gym to be embarrassed over? (only my body, which I happen to carry with me at all times)

 

No matter how much you go on..and on.... ;) it will not change what I feel. please stop attempting to sway me.

I am no longer moldable :D (was that this thread or was it another????)

Im not attempting to sway you Halos, Im just responding to your comments, I too have nothing to hide but I sure aint gonna prove I have nothing to hide by allowing them to search randomly, you seem to be an open book kind of person, many people are not and some dont want any of their information being public knowledge only because they happen to be Private People, not because they have something to hide, and they have and should retain that right to be Private and not be subjected to unreasonable searches,,,I do happen to have an open mind and am willing to listen to valid opinions, I think debate makes us all think more about ways and different angles that may not have occurred to us and have changed my mind on subjects when presented with something I never thought of on my own or heard before. Even the oldest and wisest among us has things to learn...

[GoinCruisin]

Perfectly legal now but they werent 20 or 30 years ago and are the kids back packs not private property?? But I guess as long as it is the kids rights being trampled upon and not yours its ok,,,by this logic any person in any public place has given up their right to privacy and can have no expectation of privacy when they leave their homes and are subject to search for no reason at all,,,,hmmm strikes me as a Police State...and in most other contexts it is mandatory to obtain a search warrant except under very specific circumstances but in school Private belongings can be searched with no requirments being met whatsoever, I think that constitutes an illegal search and am glad there are people fighting this issue in court as we speak. The locker belongs to the school, the kids back pack's do not and is personal property and kids also have a reasonable expectation of Privacy, its not reserved for adults..:confused: :confused:

 

Mike, honestly, you have gone a tad bit far with this... and honestly, until you start throwing some periods, commas, spaces and paragraphs into those posts, I can barely get through :p LOL. You are seriously acting as if the children and adults in our country are literally under siege. Ridiculous. Maybe in your small corner of the world they are, but I think most of us would look at how things are done and realize, it's not nearly as drastic as you are making it out to be. Schools have to be made safer, that is a fact... and I don't think there are many that mind whatever it takes to keep the children and schools safe. They can search day in and day out... and contrary to what you think, there is always a reasonable cause... the reasonable cause may not sit well with you... but nobody is ever going to be happy now are they? Contrary to what you would like everyone to believe, the US is still the land of the free... think it's not? Do some traveling... we are pretty darn lucky here. Other countries, you don't HAVE privacy... period. We still do. And unless someone has something to hide, they should be willing to offer up any information, by any means necessary, to assist in an investigation... You keep saying "no reason at all"... there is a reason, and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean there is not a valid reason.

[GoinCruisin]

Bottom line, get a freaking passport!!!! :D

[douglinc@msn.com]

If you have nothing to hide.......what's the problem. I don't have a problem being searched or having my bags searched. I have no problem taking a drug test. I think you should be required to have a drug test when you re-new your drivers license. No drug test....no drivers license.

If my bags were full of drugs, then I would be the one hollering about having my rights taken away....... Get it?

I think the ones that really complain about this are the ones that have something to hide & if you are offended by this, move to another country! I don't care!

 

Doug

[BND]

Okay, the fact is when you are pulled over you have the right to say no to a search and your car cannot be searched then. It requires a court order which needs probable cause before a judge will sign it. That does not mean you can't be arrested. I never said a word about illegal searches. Schools are legally able to search their property for banned/illegal substances and weapons. You don't have the right to do something illegal and then try to hide it. Just think how many schools would be sued if they never searched and something happened. Searches usually happen after a drug sniffing dog has pinpointed a locker or there are other indicators from students or faculty about a student. Those happen to be probable cause.

 

I'm gonna ask one more time, how is requiring a passport invading your privacy? They're already required for all overseas travel. What exactly do you think that anyone will get from your passport they dont' already have? Your ssn is not on it, nor is any other personal info that isn't on your driver's license.

 

The US is not under seige of illegal searches. Have you ever been out of the country? Believe me, there are places in this world you'd be so glad to get away from you'd kiss the ground when you get back and realize just how good you have it. Freedom isn't free!

[ConquestMike]

They can search my backpack any time they please.

 

This should not be concern of anyone unless they have something to hide.

 

Next I suppose you want to complain about your company reading the emails stored on the computer that you use at work, regardless of the fact that it is their property. Again, no expectation of privacy should be assumed. But I digress...

 

Read the Constitution carefully, "Privacy" is *not* a protected inalienable right, nor should it be. The Founding Fathers knew better.

Ahhh the ole email debate LOL email is on THEIR computer, not yours and is being read and answered on Company Time that they are paying for when they should be expecting you to be doing your job and not taking care of Personal Business..Businesses have every right to check up on people to make sure they are doing the job that they are being paid for and get rid of those who are not doing the job,,,Anything you do on Compnay Time is Company Business so if you write personal email on their time you made it their business..you agreed to Comapny policy when you took the job and that includes no expectation of privacy while on their time...maybe the word "Privacy" is the wrong word,thats just semantics.. here is the 4th amendment of the bill of rights which clearly states the right of the people to be secure in their "Persons", not just home but in their persons themselves and goes on to say papers and effects of which the papers and effects of a person are protected against unreasonable searches regardless of where they are stored and says a search warrant shall be obtained describing the place and Person to be searched...I really fail to see how random searches of lockers and going through back packs which are a persons papers and effects even comes close to meeting this criteria,,,The Supreme Court later ruled the Police have the right to seize evidence which is in full view and have the right to accompany an Arrestee into the home and also said Police can seize evidence when it is reasonable to assume that evidence will be lost by the time a search warrant is issued and only if a search warrant would have been legally issued. In over 200 hundred years these are the only judgements by the Supreme Court on the subject of searches that further outlined what Police can or can not do. Privacy may be the wrong word but I think the amendment is clear that all have expectations, including kids, to believe our papers and effects are secure from searches

 

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

[BND]

Do you ever breathe?

[GoinCruisin]

Do you ever breathe?

 

LOL! I was thinking the same thing! I find myself holding my breath reading them!! LOL!!

[ConquestMike]

Okay, the fact is when you are pulled over you have the right to say no to a search and your car cannot be searched then. It requires a court order which needs probable cause before a judge will sign it. That does not mean you can't be arrested. I never said a word about illegal searches. Schools are legally able to search their property for banned/illegal substances and weapons. You don't have the right to do something illegal and then try to hide it. Just think how many schools would be sued if they never searched and something happened. Searches usually happen after a drug sniffing dog has pinpointed a locker or there are other indicators from students or faculty about a student. Those happen to be probable cause.

 

I'm gonna ask one more time, how is requiring a passport invading your privacy? They're already required for all overseas travel. What exactly do you think that anyone will get from your passport they dont' already have? Your ssn is not on it, nor is any other personal info that isn't on your driver's license.

 

The US is not under seige of illegal searches. Have you ever been out of the country? Believe me, there are places in this world you'd be so glad to get away from you'd kiss the ground when you get back and realize just how good you have it. Freedom isn't free!

Read my previous posts and you will see I am not against Passports or other things that may inconvience us for safties sake, Im all for it actually,,,I also wrote in a previous post that schools should use dogs to sniff and when they pinpoint a locker than of course they have every right to search it and also I said if the school is suspicous of a student for than they should search and check the locker,,I never said once about hiding a crime and that people have a "Right" to hide a crime, the opposite is actually the truth. If your a criminal or there to cause others harm by all means do whatever is neccsessary. My point is with those who say its ok to search schools at anytime and students have no right to expect their efects will be secure from searches while at school when there is no proof or probable cause whatsoever.When the indicators are there than by all means search,,

As far as cars go yes you have the right to say no, and you know what the Police will say than, we will sit here or detain you at the Police Station while a warrant is obtained, if one can be obtained even, so your choice is to sit there and not go about your day while the Police detain you or allow them to search even if your only offense is a minor traffic stop. This is a commonly used tactic by Police to get around obtaining search warrants, agree to a search or we will make your life miserable until we see if we can obtain a warrant and the very nature of standing up for your rights and saying no to a search cast suspicion upon you regardless of whether you have something to hide or not. And if you say no, and they somehow obtain a warrant after detaining you and than find nothing at all I think it is a reasonable assumption they will find anything they can to chargew you with, even if it is just a pile of traffic tickets. So the threat of all this hangs in the balance if you choose to exercise your right to not be searched without just cause. Ask all the people searched due to Racial Profiling if they really feel they have the right to say no?? Legally you can say no, realistically if you do you will create a mess for yourself for exercising your right to undue searches

[douglinc@msn.com]

I would be interested in Mike's age and profession.

 

Doug

[Intrudr]

LOL! I was thinking the same thing! I find myself holding my breath reading them!! LOL!!

 

Maybe someone should get him a cup of TEA?

[ConquestMike]

Okay, the fact is when you are pulled over you have the right to say no to a search and your car cannot be searched then. It requires a court order which needs probable cause before a judge will sign it. That does not mean you can't be arrested. I never said a word about illegal searches. Schools are legally able to search their property for banned/illegal substances and weapons. You don't have the right to do something illegal and then try to hide it. Just think how many schools would be sued if they never searched and something happened. Searches usually happen after a drug sniffing dog has pinpointed a locker or there are other indicators from students or faculty about a student. Those happen to be probable cause.

 

I'm gonna ask one more time, how is requiring a passport invading your privacy? They're already required for all overseas travel. What exactly do you think that anyone will get from your passport they dont' already have? Your ssn is not on it, nor is any other personal info that isn't on your driver's license.

 

The US is not under seige of illegal searches. Have you ever been out of the country? Believe me, there are places in this world you'd be so glad to get away from you'd kiss the ground when you get back and realize just how good you have it. Freedom isn't free!

PS Freedom isnt free as you say and all those who died making sure we have these freedoms should be honored by us making sure we retain these same freedoms for generations to come so we dont end up like other countries where people have no rights..are we under seize from illegal or borderline searches, no we are not, but are illegal or borderline searches carried out every day, yes they are and if we turn a blind eye to them than they will only increase and become more commonplace rather than just an isolated circumstance. The ole give em an inch they will take a yard saying is very true here, The ACLU reconizes this and fights against it every day...

[Chele60]

I don't understand all the fuss about getting a passport. Expense? Yeah, I guess so, but compared to a vacation? So what? And the thing is good for 10 years. Okay, so maybe a family today might not think they will ever use the thing again, but they very well might - just because they do have it.

 

I first got my passport in 1988 on my first trip outside the US (Cancun). I was told I didn't have to have one. A driver's license would work equally well. I decided to get one anyway. (Back then, they were only something like $50-$60) When I got back to LA I was so thankful I had a passport! While all the birth certificate/driver's license people were stuck in customs, I whipped through with my passport! I had to renew it when I went to Israel in 1998, but it is far less cost to renew and you don't need any other documentation other than the expiring passport and new photos. Big freakin' deal. Passports just make like easier overall while traveling.

 

Besides, just got back today from my first cruise, and everywhere I looked Carnival was asking for passports. This is definitely the wave of what is to come. Best time to get a passport? Why, before you need one, of course! Never could understand people who wait 3 months before departure to get one. Just me, though.

[ConquestMike]

I would be interested in Mike's age and profession.

 

Doug

age 44. married with 3 kids, self employed in the electronics industry and home rehabbing profession, conservative person with morals, not a criminal, not a protestor and for the most part supports our Government and country completely as the best place on earth to live in. Do I think our Govt. is perfect, by all means no and being a person of morals I believe evrybodies rights should be protected and not diluted in any way. Do I believe being inconvienced for our security is neccessary YES, inconvience the hell out of me. I'll wait in line at the airports, cruise ships, obtain passports if neccessary, jump through the hoops and all that but dont tell me our rights need to be diluted for the purpose of security, they do not...look back at our recent history, Nixon had John Kerry investigated because he protested the war, The FBI had files on Elvis and John Lennon amomg many others for being categorized as subversive,,Senator McCarthy's witch hunt in the war on communism, and the lives he ruined with the infamous blaclists and now we have a war on terrorism, Japanese imprisoned in world war 2 for being Japanese,,now its school searches and car searches,,,should we just ignore history and let things go?? Or are we doomed to repeat it by turning a blind eye

[GoinCruisin]

Maybe someone should get him a cup of TEA?

 

Quit it Max!!! I told you, you are killing me over here!!!! :D

[ConquestMike]

Look, this all started with Eric protesting Passports, I think passporsts and many other means are neccessary to protect our security but Eris's rebellious side does have a ring of truth also in that we can not just give the Govt. too much power either and history tells us that the power will be abused if we just let it go because we ourselves have nothing to hide,,,now time for tea

[GoinCruisin]

Mike, do you believe in the Conspiracy Theory? :p :p :p

 

You better stop now, because in reality, we are all members of an elite FBI taskforce that has been scoping you out on CC. :eek: LOL! Kidding Mikey!!! :D

[ConquestMike]

Mike, do you believe in the Conspiracy Theory? :p :p :p

 

You better stop now, because in reality, we are all members of an elite FBI taskforce that has been scoping you out on CC. :eek: LOL! Kidding Mikey!!! :D

Nope I dont LOL and I dont believe the FBI is in my back door or any of that nonsense, but until you had your rights trampled on and seen those you love have the same thing happen will it be understood completely, Im for everyones rights, yours, mine, and the kids too is all and see a lot going on that is hurting these rights unfortunately

[GoinCruisin]

I've unfortuneately had what I felt were my rights "trampled" on, but what I thought really didn't matter and when I look back on it, I can understand and see the big picture. We may not always understand or necessarily agree, but there are far worse things that could be going on. They are doing the best they can in the society in which we live... not perfect by any means, but a great deal better than many other places you could live.