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NCL REP says "NO!" b2b2b JONES ACT embark Seatle final debark Miami

Seamo

By Seamo,
in Norwegian Cruise Line

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njhorseman

njhorseman

Posted
Posted
Horseman, I am sorry I was not clearer. I would never expect anyone to read case law on subjects which come up. That is what you pay lawyers for, which means it has to be an important issue. Unfortunately, the only approach is to cite statutes, regs, etc. And point to the experience of others (which can change as fast as interpretations do). And that is exactly what you did.

 

The operative word I should have emphasized is "humble." Although reading the regs may be the only options normal mortals have, one should not assume that because one can "read it," it will be the current law. Courts (and government agencies) can have very peculiar ways of interpreting language. I think your contributions to the discussion have been on point, as they almost always are. However, one should be cautious about conclusions based on "Just read the regs." Reasonable advice, always, but never conclusive -- that was the only point I had hoped to make.

 

Bill (22 years in NJ)

 

The interpretive document I've cited is the most recent published by Customs and Border Protection, dated April, 2010. There is no evidence of any plans to change how PVSA is interpreted and enforced. If there were, the cruise industry would have undoubtedly been informed, and the information would have trickled down to the street.

 

If my "just read the regs" comment sounds dismissive, it's because that was my intent. There are certain individuals (this isn't aimed at you) who consistently seem to post with the attitude of "don't confuse me with the facts". One was objected to my providing links to and citations from laws and regulations. Too many don't understand the difference between matters of opinion and matters of fact, and while opinions can legitimately differ ( should I take my passport with me or leave it locked in my cabin safe), facts can't (passports are required for international flights). It can get very frustrating to deal with people who can't sort out the difference between the two.

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billie5

billie5

Posted
Posted

I appreciate your point about quoting facts. I hope you appreciate mine about those who think reading the statute gives the answer.

 

Reminds me of the so-called "law school hypothetical," made famous by TV shows, where the students are given a statute and facts clearly controlled by the statute, and are then supposed to be able to argue equally convincingly either of two totally contradictory positions. Makes you understand Shakespeare's view of lawyers.:cool:

 

Bill

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  • 2 weeks later...
Cruzaholic41

Cruzaholic41

Posted
Posted
Just strange that NCL booked same three cruises for my friends on the Pearl this last September and now say no to same itinerary

 

Not strange, someone made a mistake then or someone is making a mistake now. People making mistakes is far from strange;).

 

I find this all strange because it makes me question the application of the law.

 

A few years ago, a very good friend of mine cruised RCI's Mariner of the Seas as it departed Port Canaveral, cruised all the way around the southern tip of South America, and ended in Los Angeles. The cruise was split in to 4 or 5 separate legs and the total length was something like 45 days. I'm not sure if the law was different then, or if the application was different.

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njhorseman

njhorseman

Posted
Posted
I find this all strange because it makes me question the application of the law.

 

A few years ago, a very good friend of mine cruised RCI's Mariner of the Seas as it departed Port Canaveral, cruised all the way around the southern tip of South America, and ended in Los Angeles. The cruise was split in to 4 or 5 separate legs and the total length was something like 45 days. I'm not sure if the law was different then, or if the application was different.

 

I think if you read the post immediately preceding yours, you'll see that NCL will allow this itinerary, but requires prior authorization from their legal department.

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  • 1 month later...
Seamo

Seamo

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Thanks to everyone for all the posts and work as we (you) try to get a final resolution to this question ... is this b2b2b legal and (for us) more importantly ... Will we be able to make this cruise happen (?). We were away and missed a timely response to all the most recent posts .... know that we find all ... helpful and most interesting reads. Below is our letter to Kevin Sheehan. We will let you know what comes of it .... ;) :) ... ______________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________

 

 

Kevin Sheehan, Chief Executive Officer

Norwegian Cruise Line

7665 Corporate Center Drive

Miami, FL 33139

 

Dear Mr. Sheehan:

 

We need your help.

 

“ Norwegian Cruise Line is the innovator in cruise travel with a 44-year history of breaking the boundaries of traditional cruising, most notably with the introduction of Freestyle Cruising which has revolutionized the industry by allowing guests more freedom and flexibility.”

 

We desire to complete a booking for a cruise with this Norwegian Cruise Line!

We need your help enabling us to book the ‘middle leg #2' of a 3 legged yet a Single cruise. (b2b2b). Our present status is that we have a Category suite MA/MB/MX booked for Legs 1 and 3 .

 

Embark the NCL Jewel of the Seas in Seattle on Sept. 15th, 2012. Final Disembarkation in Miami.

1: Seattle-Vancouver, 2: Vancouver-LA, 3: LA-Miami - “Distant foreign Port” of Cartagena, Columbia.

 

Our attorney opinion: “ an original embarkation in Seattle with a fully indicated intention and desire to make a final disembarkation in Miami , and having satisfied the Distant Foreign Port requirement, the tenets

of the PSVA/Jones Act have been adhered to, honored and satisfied. This Trip is a legal journey!”

 

We fully understand and appreciate the intent of the PSVA/Jones Act and see the possibility of an infringement should a passenger make a final disembark before Miami or the distant foreign port.

We further understand and completely appreciate that the Final Decision is that of the Cruise Line.

However, if that decision is based on the need to avoid a passenger willfully circumventing the Act, we swear that we shall act on and comply with any provision(s), request(s) or prohibition(s) NCL would need, want or feel required to enact. Ie: We will gladly post a cash bond to be forfeited for any breech regardless of cause; and agree to any and all Port disembark restrictions be it exclusion of temporary debark or sequestered status interim at a Port. We will enact and issue sworn guarantee of performance pledges.

 

Courteous NCL Reps have explained: “the computer system will not allow if the 1st and/or 2nd leg are shown together-the trip is not allowed; your boarding would be denied. You are allowed 1st+3 or 2nd+3. NO 1-2-3 ”

 

Kevin, we plead and beseech, invoke the feeling of the first paragraph. Help us be allowed to have

this NCL cruise from Seattle to Miami aboard the Jewel of The Seas. And after all I’m ½ Norwegian !!

 

Thank you for your time and for your consideration of our plea for help with this Grande NCL cruise!

 

Yours truly,

 

Seamo ++ tee-hee .... well that is our intent , ya know ,.... to ... Seamo!

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njhorseman

njhorseman

Posted
Posted (edited)
Thanks to everyone for all the posts and work as we (you) try to get a final resolution to this question ... is this b2b2b legal and (for us) more importantly ... Will we be able to make this cruise happen (?). We were away and missed a timely response to all the most recent posts .... know that we find all ... helpful and most interesting reads. Below is our letter to Kevin Sheehan. We will let you know what comes of it .... ;) :) ... ______________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________

 

 

Kevin Sheehan, Chief Executive Officer

Norwegian Cruise Line

7665 Corporate Center Drive

Miami, FL 33139

 

Dear Mr. Sheehan:

 

We need your help.

 

“ Norwegian Cruise Line is the innovator in cruise travel with a 44-year history of breaking the boundaries of traditional cruising, most notably with the introduction of Freestyle Cruising which has revolutionized the industry by allowing guests more freedom and flexibility.”

 

We desire to complete a booking for a cruise with this Norwegian Cruise Line!

We need your help enabling us to book the ‘middle leg #2' of a 3 legged yet a Single cruise. (b2b2b). Our present status is that we have a Category suite MA/MB/MX booked for Legs 1 and 3 .

 

Embark the NCL Jewel of the Seas in Seattle on Sept. 15th, 2012. Final Disembarkation in Miami.

1: Seattle-Vancouver, 2: Vancouver-LA, 3: LA-Miami - “Distant foreign Port” of Cartagena, Columbia.

 

Our attorney opinion: “ an original embarkation in Seattle with a fully indicated intention and desire to make a final disembarkation in Miami , and having satisfied the Distant Foreign Port requirement, the tenets

of the PSVA/Jones Act have been adhered to, honored and satisfied. This Trip is a legal journey!”

 

We fully understand and appreciate the intent of the PSVA/Jones Act and see the possibility of an infringement should a passenger make a final disembark before Miami or the distant foreign port.

We further understand and completely appreciate that the Final Decision is that of the Cruise Line.

However, if that decision is based on the need to avoid a passenger willfully circumventing the Act, we swear that we shall act on and comply with any provision(s), request(s) or prohibition(s) NCL would need, want or feel required to enact. Ie: We will gladly post a cash bond to be forfeited for any breech regardless of cause; and agree to any and all Port disembark restrictions be it exclusion of temporary debark or sequestered status interim at a Port. We will enact and issue sworn guarantee of performance pledges.

 

Courteous NCL Reps have explained: “the computer system will not allow if the 1st and/or 2nd leg are shown together-the trip is not allowed; your boarding would be denied. You are allowed 1st+3 or 2nd+3. NO 1-2-3 ”

 

Kevin, we plead and beseech, invoke the feeling of the first paragraph. Help us be allowed to have

this NCL cruise from Seattle to Miami aboard the Jewel of The Seas. And after all I’m ½ Norwegian !!

 

Thank you for your time and for your consideration of our plea for help with this Grande NCL cruise!

 

Yours truly,

 

Seamo ++ tee-hee .... well that is our intent , ya know ,.... to ... Seamo!

 

As noted in a couple of previous posts, what has to be done is to ask the reservations department to pass the request on to the legal department, which then authorizes the booking. You could have solved the problem long ago if you followed that advice, provided by other cruisers who have successfully booked these itineraries. No need for Kevin Sheehan's intervention.

Edited by njhorseman
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WaldosPepper

WaldosPepper

Posted
Posted

Seamo ~ I hope you haven't sent that letter yet! You might want to check the name of the vessel on which you hope to sail. Norwegian Cruise Line has a vessel named "Jewel." The "Jewel of the Seas" belongs to RCCI if I'm not mistaken. Twice in your letter you refer to the "Jewel of the Seas."

 

I would hate for you to send that letter referencing a ship owned by a different company. :eek:

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davesgirl51

davesgirl51

Posted
Posted
Seamo ~ I hope you haven't sent that letter yet! You might want to check the name of the vessel on which you hope to sail. Norwegian Cruise Line has a vessel named "Jewel." The "Jewel of the Seas" belongs to RCCI if I'm not mistaken. Twice in your letter you refer to the "Jewel of the Seas."

 

I would hate for you to send that letter referencing a ship owned by a different company. :eek:

 

You must be my twin ... look forward to meeting you some day.:)

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  • 1 month later...
Seamo

Seamo

Posted
  • Author
Posted

:)HI

 

SNN-CC news events: dateline: Fl. USA. ... Miami-12/02/2012

 

copy: Ever want a Company to 'act' on your request?

A Florida couple may have found the KEY to success ... mis-identify the product!

Write a letter to the boss, ask for help and then refer to the "other guy's" moniker.

ie: touch base with MacD and refer to 'the Whopper'. Get those Corp. Heads spinning.

In this case, the couple wrote a major Cruise Line wanting to arrange their cruise(s).

That's right; the ship's name was .... "the other guys".

So how does it go down? Read on.

 

Top level phones them advising help is on the way. Unnamed sources claim their

letter spawned outbursts of smiling, laughter, and asides throughout the Executive Offices

culminating in a "directive- priority status": Correct the problem. Gain a customer.

 

SNN contacted the couple. In their words... " Made a h..l of a mistake calling that vessel

by an others' name. We were really worrying. This was a celebration of a first kiss that

happened 48 years ago. Guess you already know. They (sic)-cruise line) were so wonderful.

Everything is squared away just as we had hoped for and they ... gave ... us top end card

status for this entire trip. Impressed? You bet! How often you hear of regular folks

getting treated like this? Here, is a Cruiseline that cares ... and ... from the top!"

 

**Disclaimer: this report was filed by Seamo News Network . The contents of which are

figments of the authors imagination and could or could not be reflective of the truth. All

places, times, names and events are (or could be) fictional and any similarity to real or

existing entities is unintentional.

______This Report is to be read and understood as B.I.O.N. (believe it or not). _____

 

_________________________________________________________________________

 

Are WE HAPPY....? Everyone who goes b2b2b MUST BE HAPPY !!!

________________________________________________________________________

 

We thank EVERYONE posting here, be it positive ++ / Neutral / negative-- ( and a few :rolleyes:off/the/topic)

Now WE know positively ...:D

and we DO hope this will help other cruisers ..... this trip IS LEGAL .......;)

 

________________________________________________________________________

 

 

........................................... .....................SeaShark--

..................................Seanote

njhorseman++

..................................rvsullivan

..................................melbur

.................................................................sparks1093--

sjnyc323++

.................................................................akesnana--

smeyer418++.

time2cruise1 ++

..................................my_crib_too

..................................P&Lcruising

mtwmpk++.

............ ..mtwingcpa+-

.................................edjack999

.................................................................billie5--

................................Family Travel Story

................................Cruzaholic41

davesgirl51++

................................WaldosPepper

................................Scott2.0

................................monicajay

 

____________________________________________________________________________

____________________________________________________________________________

 

as we just want to get out on the water and ...SEAMO :) ... :)

 

. . . .SUPER THANK YOU TO CRUISE CRITIC ___ KISS...KISS

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  • 2 years later...
judipa

judipa

Posted
Posted
And maybe NCL got a nasty gram or fine from CBP for letting it happen.

 

 

I am the friend who did that - and no it did not break any laws - here is the law- you may NOT leave one us city and debark in a different us city UNLESS you stop in a foreign country that is not in north america (canada and mexico don't count). If you make stops in Colombia, Guatemala and Costa Rica you have fulfilled the letter of the law. My NCL rep even spent a couple of days checking with the legal department to make sure.

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judipa

judipa

Posted
Posted
Actually, all you have to do is look at the current NCL Sales PAL...the restriction against booking these 3 cruises as a b2b2b is specifically spelled out. ANY travel agent can see and verify this information.

 

The law is clear on what it allows. You cannot simply use b2b bookings as a way to circumvent the law.

 

According to the law:

 

--A cruise line cannot offer a NY to Miami cruise...even with a stop in Nassau on the way.

--A cruise line CAN offer a NY to Nassau cruise.

--A cruise line CAN offer a Nassau to Miami cruise.

 

However...you can't book the NY-Nassau as a b2b with the Nassau-Miami to avoid creating a violation. If you could, the cruise lines would be doing it.

 

 

To see how this example applies to the OP, substitute Seattle for NY, Vancouver for Nassau, and LA for Miami....the violation occurs BEFORE the leg (LA-Miami) that visits the distant foreign port.

 

this is not circumventing the law - the law is clear if you stop in a foreign country (not mexico or canada) then you can leave one us city and end in another.

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Goofyisme

Goofyisme

Posted
Posted
I am the friend who did that - and no it did not break any laws - here is the law- you may NOT leave one us city and debark in a different us city UNLESS you stop in a foreign country that is not in north america (canada and mexico don't count). If you make stops in Colombia, Guatemala and Costa Rica you have fulfilled the letter of the law. My NCL rep even spent a couple of days checking with the legal department to make sure.

 

Just to clarify. Guatemala and Costa Rica do not meet the Distant Foreign Port requirement. Columbia does.

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bonvoyagie

bonvoyagie

Posted
Posted

I find it interesting that NCL offers a 31 day cruise from Miami to Seattle including a trip to AK.

They also sell a 26 day reverse trip - Seattle to Miami via AK.

 

Not sure where the problem is - except the difference between booking a single cruise vs three separate ones.

 

Now if you booked one of these and got off the ship in say LA and did not get back on - then you would probably be in violation.

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garycarla

garycarla

Posted
Posted

The sad part of this whole thing?

 

NCl sells trip A - Anyone can book it.

NCL sells trip B - Anyone can book it.

NCL sells trip C - Anyone can book it.

 

Forget the PVSA/Jones Act or whatever you want to call it. There is no sensible logic that says by booking all of them, something is wrong. If any ONE of them was not bookable, then it would have a little logic. But, they are 3 separate things and all bookable. Each of them are okay, with or without foreign ports or rules. Separate. Different. Not the same. Fully bookable.

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smeyer418

smeyer418

Posted
Posted (edited)
this is not circumventing the law - the law is clear if you stop in a foreign country (not mexico or canada) then you can leave one us city and end in another.

LOL distant foreign country not in North America or the Caribbean... the ABC countries of Aruba, Caraczoa and Bonaire are considered part of South America...as is Columbia...boy this is an old hread but not the oldest resurrected this week.

Edited by smeyer418
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