Concordia News: Please Post Here

[cruiserfanfromct]

It is the case with many cruise lines (I don't know about Costa) that often, a bridge officer is required where possible to be certified above their position.

 

For example, a new third officer will hold a third officers's certificate, and they will be working towards their second officer's ticket. If they want to become eligable for promotion to second officer, they will have to hold a first officer's ticket, not just a second officer's ticket. Similarly, once they are second officer, if they want to become eligable for promotion to first officer, they will have to hold a Master's certificate, which as Tonka's Skipper says will be "Master, Oceans, Tonnage unlimited."

 

After first officer, the next step is senior first officer (which I believe is termed "Security Officer" on Costa), then Staff Captain/Deputy Captain, finally Captain. Note that Tonka's Skipper made the point that there are no specific license grades for these positions, as all of these positions require "Master, Oceans, tonnage unlimited".

 

Given that Schettino joined Costa as a Safety Officer, i.e. senior first officer, he would have already held his Master's ticket.

 

VP

Thanks for this clarification VP.

[cruiserfanfromct]

Recent close-up video of Concordia wreck:

 

http://magazine.panorama.it/qr/video-QR/c-e-da-spostare-una-nave

[sidari]

CT ... I was not supporting Schettino but merely pointing out the facts as they currently stand!

 

Uni .. Well i believe and always have and always will that people have the right to withdraw their Labour in order to protect themselves, their profession and their conditions of service fought for by people with the same beliefs unless statute prevents it such as the Police in UK.

 

As i said before this is what marks out the difference between workers and slaves!

 

If the flight controllers had any sense they would have all walked away and left the USA in a total mess, Bullying will not be tolerated in any workplace! maybe its an accepted practice in the USA.

 

Many so called "professions" have now just become a job, a way of paying the bills because of the way people here have been treated with contempt by various governments.

 

Lets get this right as far as i understand it there is no written Law that says a ships Captain has to go down with the ship, i am sure that Tonka will be able to tell us.

[cruiserfanfromct]

CT .... No one has yet proven Schettino to be Incompetent and if he does in fact still hold a valid Masters liscence then technically he is still currently Competent to do the job!

 

CT ... I was not supporting Schettino but merely pointing out the facts as they currently stand!

 

Here are the facts and full transcript of the Italian Court findings:

 

“The grave imprudence and incompetence that marked the conduct of the suspect at the time when he initiated the rash maneuver just mentioned is evident and indisputable,” the Grosseto court said.

 

Here is the full transcript (translated into English by La Repubblica):

 

http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/2012/traduzione_ordinanza_grosseto.pdf

Edited July 24, 2012 by cruiserfanfromct

[cruiserfanfromct]

Lets get this right as far as i understand it there is no written Law that says a ships Captain has to go down with the ship, i am sure that Tonka will be able to tell us.

Tonka will be able to clarify this further but I believe that under US law, a captain who abandons ship might not be charged criminally or serve jail time. But under Italian, Spanish, and Greek law, leaving a ship before passengers and crew are accounted for is considered a maritime crime.

[Uniall]

CT ... I was not supporting Schettino but merely pointing out the facts as they currently stand!

 

Uni .. Well i believe and always have and always will that people have the right to withdraw their Labour in order to protect themselves, their profession and their conditions of service fought for by people with the same beliefs unless statute prevents it such as the Police in UK.

 

As i said before this is what marks out the difference between workers and slaves!

 

If the flight controllers had any sense they would have all walked away and left the USA in a total mess, Bullying will not be tolerated in any workplace! maybe its an accepted practice in the USA.

 

Many so called "professions" have now just become a job, a way of paying the bills because of the way people here have been treated with contempt by various governments.

 

Lets get this right as far as i understand it there is no written Law that says a ships Captain has to go down with the ship, i am sure that Tonka will be able to tell us.

 

 

There was no bullying by President Reagan. The law made it illegal for flight controllers to strike and he enforced the law by removing them from their jobs and banning them from government employment for life. There were lines running out the door with people clamoring to fill the vacancies.

 

You and I live in totally different worlds. It's like the Tee shirt that was a big seller a few years back: "It's All About Me !" If the shirt fits, wear it.

 

I never said there's a law mandating that a Captain go down with his ship. I maintain there's a traditional western moral and ethical imperative demanding that the Master be the last to leave a sinking ship. If that means he dies, so be it. He is honor bound to do his duty. The neo modern socialists don't believe in things like honor and duty.

 

Schitino is totally devoid of honor and was totally derelict in his duty.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Uniall

[sidari]

Uni ... I remember the strike although i did not know there was an existing law that prevented them from striking! the fact that there were lines of people wanting the jobs must tell you something!

 

"You and I live in totally different worlds. It's like the Tee shirt that was a big seller a few years back: "It's All About Me !" If the shirt fits, wear it"

 

Ah the maggie thatcher doctrine that sadly still can be seen in the UK today, Me,Me,Me.

 

I never said that you had made a comment about there being a law as to whether a ships Captain has to go down with his vessel.

 

CT ... Thanks for the links.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Gentleman,

 

There is no rule or law in any country that says the Captain has to go down with his ship.

 

There is a moral, professional and for the US, USCG regs., that require a Captain to do all that is humanly possible to save his Passengers (cargo), crew and vessel.

 

That in my mind means when he has done all of the above and the vessel is floundering,he is entitled to try and save himself.

 

Clearly in my mind the Captain of the Concordia did not fulfill that moral and professional responsibility.

 

AKK

Edited July 25, 2012 by Tonka's Skipper

[sidari]

Tonka ... Thanks for that ... Don`t forget there are Ladies who post here as well ... :)

 

Thought i would share this ....

 

Incidently Sidari ....on another debate about this accident, it might pay to remind a few that Titanic's owner dressed as a woman and dived onto the first available lifeboat...especially since they seem to think "honour" was rife and "men were real men and not cowards" back then!

 

The writer forgot to mention JP Morgan who decided not to travel on Titanic as it was claimed he was ill! ... was he ill or did he know something the rest did not!!!

[Uniall]

Gentleman' date='

 

There is no rule or law in any country that says the Captain has to go down with his ship.

 

There is a moral, professional and for the US, USCG regs., that require a Captain to do all that is humanly possible to save his Passengers (cargo), crew and vessel.

 

That in my mind means when he has done all of the above and the vessel is floundering,he is entitled to try and save himself.

 

Clearly in my mind the Captain of the Concordia did not fulfill that moral and professional responsibility.

 

AKK[/quote']

 

AKK

 

I don't disagree with your modern day assessment of the Captain's honor bound duty to save cargo and vessel but I would raise the bar when it comes to passengers and crew. I think the duty owed to human beings exceeds the duty owed to property.

 

That may be wishful thinking on my part because I still try to live by a code of conduct that is no longer the norm. Also, I expect people with who I maintain friendship to live by it in their dealings with me.

 

We're on the same page but we differ slightly on the proper wording of the explanatory footnotes. ;)

 

John

 

Here's some John Wayne Rules to Live By:

John T. Chance (Rio Bravo):

"Sorry don't get it done, Dude."

 

Sergeant John M. Stryker (Sands of Iwo Jima):

"A lot of guys make mistakes, I guess, but every one we make, a whole stack of chips goes with it. We make a mistake, and some guy don't walk away - forevermore, he don't walk away."

 

John Bernard Books (The Shootist):

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them."

 

Ringo Kid (Stagecoach):

"Well, there are some things a man just can't run away from."

 

Hondo Lane (Hondo):

"I don't guess people's hearts got anything to do with a calendar."

 

Hondo Lane (Hondo):

"Yup. The end of a way of life. Too bad. It's a good way. Wagons forward! Yo!"

 

Capt. Rockwell Torrey (In Harm's Way):

"All battles are fought by scared men who'd rather be some place else."

 

Colonel Madden (Back to Bataan):

"This kind of war, you've gotta believe in what you're fighting for."

 

Tom Doniphon (The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance):

"Out here a man settles his own problems."

 

Duke Gifford (Operation Pacific):

"He was a good man. Make sure that it says so on the patrol report."

 

Tom Dunson (Red River):

"Every time you turn around expect to see me. 'Cause one time you'll turn around and I'll be there, and I'll kill you, Matt."

 

Marshall J.D. Cahill (Cahill, U.S. Marshall):

"Cause even grown men need understanding."

 

Col. Michael Kirby (The Green Berets):

"Out here, due process is a bullet."

 

Col. David Crockett (The Alamo):

"Republic. I like the sound of the word."

[Uniall]

Tonka ... Thanks for that ... Don`t forget there are Ladies who post here as well ... :)

 

Thought i would share this ....

 

Incidently Sidari ....on another debate about this accident, it might pay to remind a few that Titanic's owner dressed as a woman and dived onto the first available lifeboat...especially since they seem to think "honour" was rife and "men were real men and not cowards" back then!

 

The writer forgot to mention JP Morgan who decided not to travel on Titanic as it was claimed he was ill! ... was he ill or did he know something the rest did not!!!

 

Your use of one individual as an example to prove a general rule is fallacious reasoning in Atistotillian/Thomistic logic.

 

The general rule of the Titanic is that 90% of the wealthy women and children lived and 90% of the wealthy men died. Don't let your class warfare mindset cloud your reasoning ability.

[cruiserfanfromct]

True, there is no fixed International penalty for abandoning ship,

 

BUT

 

In addition to standards set out by the International Maritime Organization, every ship is subject to the laws of the country it is registered to, known as its “flag state.” In Concordia's case this was Panama -- unlikely to be any penalties there,

 

BUT

 

In addition to international law and flag state law, every ship is subject to the laws of the country where a ship is in port or waters.

 

In this case it was in Italian waters off an Italian island with an Italian captain. The offense of abandoning ship in Italy carries a sentence of up to 12 years in prison under Italian law.

 

Sid -- correct, there are ladies on this thread as well. ;)

[cruiserfanfromct]

Incidently Sidari ....on another debate about this accident, it might pay to remind a few that Titanic's owner dressed as a woman and dived onto the first available lifeboat...especially since they seem to think "honour" was rife and "men were real men and not cowards" back then!

 

The writer forgot to mention JP Morgan who decided not to travel on Titanic as it was claimed he was ill! ... was he ill or did he know something the rest did not!!!

The owner of the Titantic, Bruce Ismay, unlike Schettino, was a passenger and not a member of the crew. Like Schettino he became 'the most hated man in the world' at that time. Captain Smith would have probably been hung by his privates in a public square had he done "a Schettino".

 

According to the website listverse, there were 9 people, besides JP Morgan who decided not to travel on the Titantic:

 

http://listverse.com/2011/12/09/10-people-who-did-not-board-the-titanic/

[Tonka's Skipper]

AKK

 

I don't disagree with your modern day assessment of the Captain's honor bound duty to save cargo and vessel but I would raise the bar when it comes to passengers and crew. I think the duty owed to human beings exceeds the duty owed to property.

 

That may be wishful thinking on my part because I still try to live by a code of conduct that is no longer the norm. Also, I expect people with who I maintain friendship to live by it in their dealings with me.

 

We're on the same page but we differ slightly on the proper wording of the explanatory footnotes. ;)

 

John

 

Here's some John Wayne Rules to Live By:

John T. Chance (Rio Bravo):

"Sorry don't get it done, Dude."

 

Sergeant John M. Stryker (Sands of Iwo Jima):

"A lot of guys make mistakes, I guess, but every one we make, a whole stack of chips goes with it. We make a mistake, and some guy don't walk away - forevermore, he don't walk away."

 

John Bernard Books (The Shootist):

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them."

 

Ringo Kid (Stagecoach):

"Well, there are some things a man just can't run away from."

 

Hondo Lane (Hondo):

"I don't guess people's hearts got anything to do with a calendar."

 

Hondo Lane (Hondo):

"Yup. The end of a way of life. Too bad. It's a good way. Wagons forward! Yo!"

 

Capt. Rockwell Torrey (In Harm's Way):

"All battles are fought by scared men who'd rather be some place else."

 

Colonel Madden (Back to Bataan):

"This kind of war, you've gotta believe in what you're fighting for."

 

Tom Doniphon (The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance):

"Out here a man settles his own problems."

 

Duke Gifford (Operation Pacific):

"He was a good man. Make sure that it says so on the patrol report."

 

Tom Dunson (Red River):

"Every time you turn around expect to see me. 'Cause one time you'll turn around and I'll be there, and I'll kill you, Matt."

 

Marshall J.D. Cahill (Cahill, U.S. Marshall):

"Cause even grown men need understanding."

 

Col. Michael Kirby (The Green Berets):

"Out here, due process is a bullet."

 

Col. David Crockett (The Alamo):

"Republic. I like the sound of the word."

 

 

No I agree.........passengers and crew then cargo and vessel.....

 

JW is a hero of mine, I met him once !

 

AKK

Edited July 25, 2012 by Tonka's Skipper

[sidari]

Uni ... 1st off my post was from someone else! nothing clouds my reasoning ability and the fact that there were not enough lifeboats was the reason people died not because they were brave or macho or honourable, so honourable that they never gave any thought to the rest of the people onboard but themselves.

 

Your John Wayne quotes are proof enough that you are out of touch with the real world and are living in the past with your B movie hero Ronnie, despite the fact that he died some time ago.

[Uniall]

Uni ... 1st off my post was from someone else! nothing clouds my reasoning ability and the fact that there were not enough lifeboats was the reason people died not because they were brave or macho or honourable, so honourable that they never gave any thought to the rest of the people onboard but themselves.

 

Your John Wayne quotes are proof enough that you are out of touch with the real world and are living in the past with your B movie hero Ronnie, despite the fact that he died some time ago.

 

I don't know where you get the idea that your post was private. This is a free debate forum. Further, your process of logic was faulty. You used the example that the Titanic's owner dressed like a woman as evidence that honor and duty was not the norm 100 years ago. That is fallacious reasoning. The facts that I mentioned (90% of the women and chidren lived and 90% of the men died) is irrebuttable evidence that honor and duty were the norm.

 

As for John Wayne, there are enough people left who still believe in a Code of Honor & Duty. You don't have to look beyond the multi national troops in the middle east who prove it every day.

[sidari]

John .... I never said my post was private but merely copied from someone who had sent it to me so therefore my logic is not faulty, it may well be true that in Victorian times women and children first was the norm but that does not mean that families in the modern day should be broken up where lifeboats are concerned.

 

With regard to troops in the middle east they really did not have a say in going there did they ? though i agree they do a great job but no different to all the Emergancy services personnel over the years who gave up their lives to save others.

 

Would i go into a burning building in order to save someone? Yes .. and i have done when i was a Teenager rescueing two young children from a house fire, have i done it since? Yes on many occasions so putting my life at risk as have my co workers.

Would i go into a burning ships cabin in order to rescue someone while on a cruise? Yes without hesitation, would i risk the lives of other co workers knowing that a person may well be deceased at the risk of killing them the answer is No!

[cruiserfanfromct]

It hasn't been proven that Ismay dressed up as a women, but even if he did and by doing so gained entry to a lifeboat, it illustrates that in that era women were revered by honorable men. In contrast to today, from the reports coming from the Concordia describing grannies in wheelchairs being pushed aside and little kids stepped on; it would not have mattered one iota who you dressed up like, unless, one of the entertainers had a left over Captain Hook costume from a previous show.

 

How times have changed...

 

To further illustrate the difference, all one has to do is watch a dinner scene from the move Titanic

where people dressed to the nines and chivalry and gallantry prevailed;

 

then go on the CC board and read the dining room dress code complaint threads -- where people describe men wearing sleeveless, wife-beater t-shirts with the F word written on it, donning backward facing baseball caps -- and pants with a crotch as low as somewhere below their knees, exposing their boxers, "sagging" like they had a huge diaper wad in them. And the women, with their thongs that would never see the light of day, so embedded up their butts they were, with half their butt cheeks hanging off the chairs and cleavage cut below mid sternum.

 

My, how times have changed...:eek:

Edited July 25, 2012 by cruiserfanfromct

[sidari]

then go on the CC board and read the dining room dress code complaint threads -- where people describe men wearing sleeveless, wife-beater t-shirts with the F word written on it, donning backward facing baseball caps -- and pants with a crotch as low as somewhere below their knees, exposing their boxers, "sagging" like they had a huge diaper wad in them. And the women, with their thongs that would never see the light of day, so embedded up their butts they were, with half their butt cheeks hanging off the chairs and cleavage cut below mid sternum.

 

My, how times have changed

 

 

CT .. I agree with every bit of what you have posted here, we always follow the dress code and on the Queen Victoria you had no choice because even for those who went to the buffet in the evening the men had to wear a jacket!

 

With regard to dress codes the cruise lines have to take much of the responsibility for allowing people to wear the likes of baseball hats in the dining room especially on Gala evenings and not enforcing the dress code.

 

On lines like NCL where there is no dress code as such then it is no point people complaining.

[Uniall]

then go on the CC board and read the dining room dress code complaint threads -- where people describe men wearing sleeveless, wife-beater t-shirts with the F word written on it, donning backward facing baseball caps -- and pants with a crotch as low as somewhere below their knees, exposing their boxers, "sagging" like they had a huge diaper wad in them. And the women, with their thongs that would never see the light of day, so embedded up their butts they were, with half their butt cheeks hanging off the chairs and cleavage cut below mid sternum.

 

My, how times have changed

 

 

CT .. I agree with every bit of what you have posted here, we always follow the dress code and on the Queen Victoria you had no choice because even for those who went to the buffet in the evening the men had to wear a jacket!

 

With regard to dress codes the cruise lines have to take much of the responsibility for allowing people to wear the likes of baseball hats in the dining room especially on Gala evenings and not enforcing the dress code.

 

On lines like NCL where there is no dress code as such then it is no point people complaining.

 

I love NCL. At the first dress up or not night, when I show up in tux with clan tartan tie and cumerbund we are always seated in the the best seats away from the riff raff. That's usually followed with an invite to join the Captain or Hotel Director for dinner on the next dress up or not night.

[sidari]

"I love NCL. At the first dress up or not night, when I show up in tux with clan tartan tie and cumerbund we are always seated in the the best seats away from the riff raff. That's usually followed with an invite to join the Captain or Hotel Director for dinner on the next dress up or not night"

 

John ... You are on the wrong ships! .... you should be on the Queens you would fit right in .... :)

 

By the way is the Epic worth being on for a T.A. to Miami ?

[Uniall]

"I love NCL. At the first dress up or not night, when I show up in tux with clan tartan tie and cumerbund we are always seated in the the best seats away from the riff raff. That's usually followed with an invite to join the Captain or Hotel Director for dinner on the next dress up or not night"

 

John ... You are on the wrong ships! .... you should be on the Queens you would fit right in .... :)

 

By the way is the Epic worth being on for a T.A. to Miami ?

 

 

But, if I were on Cunard I wouldn't stand out from the crowd and be noticed for special treatment.

 

We had a marvelous TA crossing from Miami to Barcelona last year. It was the Epic's first east bound TA. We enjoyed it thouroughly but would not sail the Epic again because we felt the huge number of passengers made it impossible for NCL to deliver the personalized service to which we've grown to expect.

 

BUT, the Epic is, without a doubt, the BEST entertainment venue outside of Las Vegas. It is so varied and so bountiful that it takes a TA with all those at sea days to do full credit to the entertainment.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Uniall

[sidari]

"But, if I were on Cunard I wouldn't stand out from the crowd and be noticed for special treatment"

 

John ... That would depend on what you were wearing or maybe not wearing! if you went dressed as a lawyer that might do the trick.

 

We have been looking at the Epic from Barcelona to Miami in October, either that or RCI from Barcelona to Dubai in January.

[Uniall]

"But, if I were on Cunard I wouldn't stand out from the crowd and be noticed for special treatment"

 

John ... That would depend on what you were wearing or maybe not wearing! if you went dressed as a lawyer that might do the trick.

 

We have been looking at the Epic from Barcelona to Miami in October, either that or RCI from Barcelona to Dubai in January.

 

If I sailed Cunard, I suppose I could bring my white tie and tails. I only wear that once or twice a year.

[sidari]

If I sailed Cunard, I suppose I could bring my white tie and tails. I only wear that once or twice a year.

 

Trouble is they might think you are the Pianist ... :D