Gay cruise ship docks in Dominica; two passengers arrested for buggery

[starnsky]

There does seem to be a lot of debate about whether these people were indeed doing anything more than sunbathing nude on their balcony. I'm going with the benefit of the doubt here, and presupposing that if certain facts are taken as truths; that a straight couple on a mainstream cruise would not have faced the same issue, that a good percentage of the islanders have an anti-gay sentiment, and that there seemed to be no evidence presented of any sex because the charge ended up being lowered to something in a misdemeanor-like category, and that the jurist referred to the accused as rogues and vagabonds despite their proven ability to pay their fines immediately.

 

I spent some time reading through many of the posts in the thread. I wasn't on the cruise, don't go on gay cruises even though I'm gay, I just prefer mainstream. If I did go on all gay cruises with my partner (who I share an open relationship with), I'd expect there to be a good amount of sex going on, maybe even on someone's balcony. For me, I don't think it's appropriate unless everyone who could see knows what they might be exposed to.

 

It did seem from what I've read that a fair share of people felt that the Atlantis owner guy that was on board should have done more given the ambiguity of the circumstances. I feel that had there been a photo of something more than someone nude in what they considered their own private balcony, the charges would not have been reduced. I could be wrong. I wasn't there. I also feel that it doesn't look good for gay people as a political group to get this kind of negative attention because someone was too self-involved to think about the common good. The couple that were charged may very well have been going at it on their balcony and got caught. They also may have been getting some sun, nude, in their private balcony, and didn't think anything of it. I just considered that when I left my previous comment. The powers that be running that gay themed event, going to an island that might have some issues with homophobia could have been proactive in giving the benefit of the doubt to their guests in lieu of any other information.

 

I'm sorry to have stretched my point so long. If it were clear that these guys were or weren't doing anything more than sunbathing nude on their private balcony as a couple then you're absolutely right. Let them pay their fine, suffer the terror of a night in a foreign jail and the hell that must entail, their vacation is ruined, then they have to fly home in shame. But I have a feeling that if that were the case there would have been references to videos and pictures clearly showing more than nudity.

 

 

 

 

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If this was a straight couple having sex, they would have been arrested as well. Don't make this a hate thing against gay people. We read the laws in that Country before port and as I said before, my husband left his camo hat at home because he could have been arrested. They broke the law in another Country plain and simple.

 

I am appalled that these two would do this in public view, they must be stupid and deserve what they got.

[Boytjie]

I guess I'm missing something here. I didn't see any links to any pictures.

 

Check post 178: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=33221113&postcount=178

 

We all agree that any behavior sexual in nature should not have taken place in view of anyone who didn't consent to being part of or at least viewing such activity. From what I read on this thread it appears that there is no evidence of sexual activity, and that was the basis for my comments. There's no need for you to get snippy about it.

 

Maybe you only read half of the thread? Because it was discussed especially after the pictures surfaced. So the snippiness was based on the fact that picture links were posted and people discussed the fact that it was worse than what the two guys claimed.

[Boytjie]

If this was a straight couple having sex, they would have been arrested as well. Don't make this a hate thing against gay people.

 

I am sure there was some homophobia behind this too but agree a heterosexual couple would have gotten in trouble as well. How they would have been handled would likely have been a little less harsh.

 

I am appalled that these two would do this in public view, they must be stupid and deserve what they got.

 

My theory was that they were most likely still high after partying the previous night. Or maybe that are just stupid. With one of them previously in law enforcement I am going with the first option more. :)

[GriffinAlexander]

Check post 178: http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=33221113&postcount=178

 

 

 

Maybe you only read half of the thread? Because it was discussed especially after the pictures surfaced. So the snippiness was based on the fact that picture links were posted and people discussed the fact that it was worse than what the two guys claimed.

 

Ok, point taken. I did say that I didn't see any evidence of sexual activity. Obviously there was some. I just saw that pic. We've all been in a situation in our lives where we had to hide or deal with negative consequences for being gay. I'm man enough to admit that I didn't know all the facts. Maybe I missed a post in the thread, but I just saw the pic now. And I know how important it is that we are all perceived, particularly where there may be anti gay sentiment, as upstanding law abiding citizens. We must hold ourselves to a higher standard if we are ever going to change the sentiment that turns some people against us. Can we all be friends now?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[starnsky]

I am sure there was some homophobia behind this too but agree a heterosexual couple would have gotten in trouble as well. How they would have been handled would likely have been a little less harsh.

 

 

 

My theory was that they were most likely still high after partying the previous night. Or maybe that are just stupid. With one of them previously in law enforcement I am going with the first option more. :)

 

I think you are right!;)

[Boytjie]

Ok, point taken. I did say that I didn't see any evidence of sexual activity. Obviously there was some. I just saw that pic. We've all been in a situation in our lives where we had to hide or deal with negative consequences for being gay. I'm man enough to admit that I didn't know all the facts. Maybe I missed a post in the thread, but I just saw the pic now. And I know how important it is that we are all perceived, particularly where there may be anti gay sentiment, as upstanding law abiding citizens. We must hold ourselves to a higher standard if we are ever going to change the sentiment that turns some people against us. Can we all be friends now?

 

No problem. :)

 

I was rather surprised that you would defend them and suggest they be compensated even after it was revealed what really happened.

[GriffinAlexander]

No problem. :)

 

I was rather surprised that you would defend them and suggest they be compensated even after it was revealed what really happened.

 

No, they probably are fortunate to have paid a fine and been sent on their way. I had it wrong.

[turquoise 6]

If this was a straight couple having sex, they would have been arrested as well. Don't make this a hate thing against gay people. We read the laws in that Country before port and as I said before, my husband left his camo hat at home because he could have been arrested. They broke the law in another Country plain and simple.

 

I am appalled that these two would do this in public view, they must be stupid and deserve what they got.

If this was a straight couple having sex in Dominica they would not be arrested! It is legal for a straight couple to have sex.Illegal for a gay couple: Read the law of Dominica . The guys were not given the FULL treatment of arrest,because this alleged " incident"(Did they have sex? or was this a public display on their balcony?) occurred on the cruise ship and not on the island. This means that the cruise company worked with the Police to get them free. TO enforce a an anti -gay

law on these guys who were ,on the balcony ,far from the dock,makes me think about what the motives were by the police to make this severe arrest.

[keithm]

If this was a straight couple having sex in Dominica they would not be arrested! It is legal for a straight couple to have sex.Illegal for a gay couple: Read the law of Dominica . The guys were not given the FULL treatment of arrest,because this alleged " incident"(Did they have sex? or was this a public display on their balcony?) occurred on the cruise ship and not on the island. This means that the cruise company worked with the Police to get them free. TO enforce a an anti -gay

law on these guys who were ,on the balcony ,far from the dock,makes me think about what the motives were by the police to make this severe arrest.

I would think that a straight couple would have been arrested as well. Straight sex is obviously legal in Dominica..straight sex in public..well I'm not so sure. These guys were real idiots. It's still not known whether they were "flaunting" the local laws or not. Just reading the blog from the island news website, it was pretty obvious that gays were not welcome there period. As long as nothing was being done against the law, the police really couldn't do anything. I'd still hesitate leaving the ship either way. A shame because it really is a beautiful island.

[Boytjie]

If this was a straight couple having sex in Dominica they would not be arrested! It is legal for a straight couple to have sex.Illegal for a gay couple: Read the law of Dominica . The guys were not given the FULL treatment of arrest,because this alleged " incident"(Did they have sex? or was this a public display on their balcony?) occurred on the cruise ship and not on the island. This means that the cruise company worked with the Police to get them free. TO enforce a an anti -gay

law on these guys who were ,on the balcony ,far from the dock,makes me think about what the motives were by the police to make this severe arrest.

 

Are you serious?! :eek: :confused:

[turquoise 6]

I would think that a straight couple would have been arrested as well. Straight sex is obviously legal in Dominica..straight sex in public..well I'm not so sure. These guys were real idiots. It's still not known whether they were "flaunting" the local laws or not. Just reading the blog from the island news website, it was pretty obvious that gays were not welcome there period. As long as nothing was being done against the law, the police really couldn't do anything. I'd still hesitate leaving the ship either way. A shame because it really is a beautiful island.

well, what i wrote in my post is there to read and it is important to see the implications... I will not repeat it. There was no jury trial. As you said

alot was unknown! anyway, you are following my post. With that said, you should not call them Idiots. That is not the right thing to do here.

A Shame? How did this shame beautiful Dominica? I know Dominica

since 1966 (I was a young lad). The island is beautiful in being an unspoiled

tropical island,but the social development and history has and is turbulent and violent . So, my point is you should show some compassion for this guys ,not for Dominica. Unless

[turquoise 6]

Are you serious?! :eek: :confused:

feed the fire. stir the pot, Yes I am serious ... and I have been reading your constant bashing these guys,,, relentless in your pursuit to attack anyone who defends them , or questions what happened.

WHAT IS YOUR MOTIVE?

[Boytjie]

feed the fire. stir the pot, Yes I am serious ... and I have been reading your constant bashing these guys,,, relentless in your pursuit to attack anyone who defends them , or questions what happened.

WHAT IS YOUR MOTIVE?

 

Relentless? OK, so you aren't serious, LOL!

 

As for questioning what happened, it you carefully read the thread you would find that I did not "attack" then until the picture was revealed; I believe I was waiting to find out more information first. You may want to reread the thread. ;)

 

I can't find anything redeeming in those idiots behaviour.

[keithm]

well, what i wrote in my post is there to read and it is important to see the implications... I will not repeat it. There was no jury trial. As you said

alot was unknown! anyway, you are following my post. With that said, you should not call them Idiots. That is not the right thing to do here.

A Shame? How did this shame beautiful Dominica? I know Dominica

since 1966 (I was a young lad). The island is beautiful in being an unspoiled

tropical island,but the social development and history has and is turbulent and violent . So, my point is you should show some compassion for this guys ,not for Dominica. Unless

Along with Boytjie & others, we saw the "Photos". Sorry, but I cant defend these guys. Yes, they are idiots. People were well informed about the laws(Archaic, as they may be)on Dominica. These laws are on many of the islands. I don't support them, either. I'm just a visitor/tourist. I will respect the laws of these islands. If we are not welcome to spend our money there, then we'll spend it elsewhere!

I still feel that gay cruiselines should consider going where we are welcome. RSVP/Atlantis and others should definately be public about homophobic places. We do have plenty of forward thinking straight friends who might follow suit with us, and go elsewhere. Money talks, as they say.

[SailorManBilly]

The 2 male passengers were in the privacy of their own stateroom , which they bad for. The ships security had no been called

So there was no criminal activity by the 2 passengers

The ship is not registered in Dominica

What happened to them can happen to any gay passenger and it will happen again. If the captain took appropriate action with the authorities

Then that ship would have left on time with the 2 passengers

Also the other passengers should have gotten involved

Since this a a family of gay passengers.

What happenned impacted all.

They should never apologize to anyone

If this injustice is permitted then it is a violation of all gays civil rights

 

Um, I DO hope you have seen the picture of these two idiots buggering on their balcony clear as day, since you typed this response!

 

These scumbags DO owe us ALL an apology for putting us ALL once again in a negative light. I pray that I run not these classless jerks someday because I want to tell them off. Don't they realize that it's actions like this that continues to make us hated... And that hatred is passed down to little homophobe bullies who cause such pain and angst in gay teens... And all too often these gay teens kill themselves. Deep seeded homophobia is bad enough to our young gays, but my God, do we in our OWN community really have to give them more fuel to their fires?!?!

 

These two idiots not only set us back and owe US apologies, but as far as I'm concerned, they also have blood on their hands, because their actions and the huge media hype around it will most definitely result in small town homophobic straights having yet another reason to hate us, and that continued hatred WILL result in more gay teen suicides!!

 

Think people!! Your actions out in the world affect us ALL - and if you don't give a damn about your peers, could you show SOME consideration for how it affects our gay teens?

 

And in case you haven't seen the picture of these two morons, look it up on google. It's clearly these guys. The younger one is completely naked bent over and holding the wall in front of him, while the older one (the ex cop) is just as naked and holding the younger one's hips in a VERY obvious sex move. There is NO mistaking this. These guys are scumbags and should have been locked up. I'm GLAD they got left behind and i wish their punishment had been worse. This isn't a gay or straight issue. Nobody should HAVE to be subjected to seeing a sex scene play out in public!! And what about kids seeing it? I mean, come on!! Whatever happened to class?

 

And then these idiots LIED about what they were doing and turned it into an anti-gay attack, which many in our community fell for and jumped on the bandwagon. They should be ashamed. Next time I read about a gay suicide, I'm going to think "too bad the wrong gay killed himself"!! These two should be hanging their heads in shame, and instead from what I'm reading, they consider themselves to be the new gay Rosa Parks. Clueless, classless, selfish, self-centered disgusting human beings.

 

Never have I been SO disgusted with a member of my own community. I'm ashamed that I'm part of the same community as those two!

[Vibe]

Well said !

[RickEk]

Um, I DO hope you have seen the picture of these two idiots buggering on their balcony clear as day, since you typed this response!

 

These scumbags DO owe us ALL an apology for putting us ALL once again in a negative light. I pray that I run not these classless jerks someday because I want to tell them off. Don't they realize that it's actions like this that continues to make us hated... And that hatred is passed down to little homophobe bullies who cause such pain and angst in gay teens... And all too often these gay teens kill themselves. Deep seeded homophobia is bad enough to our young gays, but my God, do we in our OWN community really have to give them more fuel to their fires?!?!

 

These two idiots not only set us back and owe US apologies, but as far as I'm concerned, they also have blood on their hands, because their actions and the huge media hype around it will most definitely result in small town homophobic straights having yet another reason to hate us, and that continued hatred WILL result in more gay teen suicides!!

 

Think people!! Your actions out in the world affect us ALL - and if you don't give a damn about your peers, could you show SOME consideration for how it affects our gay teens?

 

And in case you haven't seen the picture of these two morons, look it up on google. It's clearly these guys. The younger one is completely naked bent over and holding the wall in front of him, while the older one (the ex cop) is just as naked and holding the younger one's hips in a VERY obvious sex move. There is NO mistaking this. These guys are scumbags and should have been locked up. I'm GLAD they got left behind and i wish their punishment had been worse. This isn't a gay or straight issue. Nobody should HAVE to be subjected to seeing a sex scene play out in public!! And what about kids seeing it? I mean, come on!! Whatever happened to class?

 

And then these idiots LIED about what they were doing and turned it into an anti-gay attack, which many in our community fell for and jumped on the bandwagon. They should be ashamed. Next time I read about a gay suicide, I'm going to think "too bad the wrong gay killed himself"!! These two should be hanging their heads in shame, and instead from what I'm reading, they consider themselves to be the new gay Rosa Parks. Clueless, classless, selfish, self-centered disgusting human beings.

 

Never have I been SO disgusted with a member of my own community. I'm ashamed that I'm part of the same community as those two!

 

Well said... sex in public has its place (Folsom Street Fair comes to mind), but not on the balcony of a ship that has docked in a foreign country. The photo clearly shows that they weren't just sunbathing. If the ship had been docked in Key West, they still would have been arrested because of indecent exposure laws... what were they thinking? Screw at sea on your balcony... not at a foreign port within the sight of anyone (men, women, children, homophobes). :rolleyes:

[turquoise 6]

Um, I DO hope you have seen the picture of these two idiots buggering on their balcony clear as day, since you typed this response!

 

These scumbags DO owe us ALL an apology for putting us ALL once again in a negative light. I pray that I run not these classless jerks someday because I want to tell them off. Don't they realize that it's actions like this that continues to make us hated... And that hatred is passed down to little homophobe bullies who cause such pain and angst in gay teens... And all too often these gay teens kill themselves. Deep seeded homophobia is bad enough to our young gays, but my God, do we in our OWN community really have to give them more fuel to their fires?!?!

 

These two idiots not only set us back and owe US apologies, but as far as I'm concerned, they also have blood on their hands, because their actions and the huge media hype around it will most definitely result in small town homophobic straights having yet another reason to hate us, and that continued hatred WILL result in more gay teen suicides!!

 

Think people!! Your actions out in the world affect us ALL - and if you don't give a damn about your peers, could you show SOME consideration for how it affects our gay teens?

 

And in case you haven't seen the picture of these two morons, look it up on google. It's clearly these guys. The younger one is completely naked bent over and holding the wall in front of him, while the older one (the ex cop) is just as naked and holding the younger one's hips in a VERY obvious sex move. There is NO mistaking this. These guys are scumbags and should have been locked up. I'm GLAD they got left behind and i wish their punishment had been worse. This isn't a gay or straight issue. Nobody should HAVE to be subjected to seeing a sex scene play out in public!! And what about kids seeing it? I mean, come on!! Whatever happened to class?

 

And then these idiots LIED about what they were doing and turned it into an anti-gay attack, which many in our community fell for and jumped on the bandwagon. They should be ashamed. Next time I read about a gay suicide, I'm going to think "too bad the wrong gay killed himself"!! These two should be hanging their heads in shame, and instead from what I'm reading, they consider themselves to be the new gay Rosa Parks. Clueless, classless, selfish, self-centered disgusting human beings.

 

Never have I been SO disgusted with a member of my own community. I'm ashamed that I'm part of the same community as those two!

This is a learning lesson, A new word being used American vocabulary

Buggering !! You use it well.

I think your response is so way "over the top" that I can't give you a retort. I think my first post was very well written and addressed the specific incident on the Gay cruise ship in Dominica. This arrest on board is a precedent. I suspect now this type of cruise will be open to an increase of surveillance by Law enforcement in certain ports.

It was something "waiting to happen" and now that it did it will happen again for what ever reason. This type of cruise is not welcomed in many islands/places. What do do? maybe have workshops or meetings on board

about the culture of each port, Dress codes, Behavior codes. Education may be what is needed here.

[GriffinAlexander]

OK, no need for you all to start a fight over this.

 

Sometimes when people feel strongly about something, or they have seen the evidence that others haven't, they may behave as if everyone has see the evidence, which may be somewhere in the thread, or in a linked link or something.

 

From what I originally thought to what I saw when I was shown the link to the evidence of the actual even that this thread is about, I changed my mind. I also understand why Boytjie is getting a little bit frustrated - here's the thing:

 

Many of us, myself included, suffered a lot of discriminatory behavior when we were younger and had to fight back against it so that we, as gay people, would be allowed to be treated somewhat like regular people in most areas of life. While that doesn't always extend to every area of the law, it certainly has come a long way since I was a teen. Now, finally, people are standing up for and protecting younger people against bullying which causes a lot of psychological damage and suicides. In order to gain all of the ground we have gained, we have had to do and act better than others, behave in an upstanding manner, and be taken seriously because we band together and act polite and courteous but demand our rights. In areas where there is still an anti gay sentiment, such as islands like Dominica, gay people must put forth a face which will change that. We do so by being kind to the indigenous people despite the looks we may get, ignoring any negative talk, and smiling away at everyone and putting a good face on everything. We spend our large disposable incomes on trinkets and jewelry and souvenirs, and when we leave the people can only say "These people weren't so bad after all". They've spent their money here, haven't tried to pick up all of our men, and haven't run amok on the island causing all sorts of trouble". Something like this happens, and while it may not be the worst thing that could happen, it is seized upon by the locals and is 5 steps back for the cause. Now every time a gay guy shows up there, particularly on a gay charter cruise, the locals will compare everyone to the 2 queens that were trying to show the entire island what they came for - island d*&k.

 

Something like this isn't much of a big deal in some areas, but in places where we need to do a lot more work to be accepted and more importantly, to allow the gay population on the island to feel that they can be able to be themselves without fear of recrimination, it is a huge problem.

 

I don't know what happened on that ship, what they allowed on, what their security policies are or any of that, we don't cruise gay cruises, but I've heard stories of things that happen on these ships. Before I saw the picture I had much more sympathy for the couple than afterward. Any 12 year old knows not to run around naked where people can see them. Having sex in full view of the islanders is just a no-no, and the picture clearly shows that they were going at it. There's nothing to debate. Yes their balcony is their private space, but they should have kept that behavior for when they were at sea.

[Boytjie]

This arrest on board is a precedent.

 

Are you a maritime lawyer? :rolleyes:

[sej67]

From the I'm-not-a-lawyer-but-I-play-one-online dept.: Not to be anal (no pun intended), but they were charged with indecent exposure; the buggery charge was dropped. The photo does not present conclusive legal evidence of penetration.

[turquoise 6]

Are you a maritime lawyer? :rolleyes:

Hey, No. Just a lover of Cruises and cruise critic ,LOL

R

[Schplinky]

From the I'm-not-a-lawyer-but-I-play-one-online dept.: Not to be anal (no pun intended), but they were charged with indecent exposure; the buggery charge was dropped. The photo does not present conclusive legal evidence of penetration.

 

 

Agreed, but it does also contradict their testimony in court of "we were so swept up by the beauty of Dominica that we went onto the balcony without dressing fully but were out their briefly before we realised our fault and returned inside."

[Boytjie]

Hey, No. Just a lover of Cruises and cruise critic ,LOL

R

 

Well, I think all of us here are ;)

 

As for jurisdiction, I think within 12 nautical miles the laws of the coutry rule. And no, I am not a maritime lawyer but do you the Google Machine. :)

[ikelmay]

I think your response is so way "over the top" that I can't give you a retort. I think my first post was very well written and addressed the specific incident on the Gay cruise ship in Dominica. This arrest on board is a precedent. I suspect now this type of cruise will be open to an increase of surveillance by Law enforcement in certain ports.

It was something "waiting to happen" and now that it did it will happen again for what ever reason. This type of cruise is not welcomed in many islands/places. What do do?

 

What to do? Here's a suggestion. Don't have sex on your balcony in view of any passing islander with good eyesight. Don't play the 'gay' card and claim homophobic prejudice when you have been buggering your other half on a balcony. Don't then lie about what you were up to when you get the media in front of you and make a pack of lies up when various passengers are happily photographing your carnal activities in high definition.

 

The stupidity of this pair amazes me, but what really annoys me is their cowardice in not acknowledging their actions. I also felt some sympathy based on their story until I saw the photos. It doesn't take too many brain cells firing to realise that having sex on your balcony while in port when you are surrounded by customs and immigration officers as well as port authority employees, isn't a very good idea.