Credit Cards Need PIN in Denmark

[r1955]

Just a few weeks ago, in Italy we couldn't pay for gas with credit card unless we paid to a clerk in the shop. The trouble was, shops in gas stations closed quite early. Otherwise we paid with credit card everywhere.

 

So now I've found out I actually have a visa card with a chip (never have to use the chip at home so didn't even notice). The credit card company told me that the pin is actually the same code I use to withdraw money at the ATM, so I hope this works for us in Scandinavia for everything (and everywhere else in Europe).

 

I think the explanation about the fraud liability is right because in Israel also like in the USA, the credit companies have to pay if there is a fraud and can't pass the liability on to the consumer.

[Neuhoftraveler]

Capital One (the card with no foreign transaction fees) and Bank of America both have informed me that that they do not issue chip cards. Citi informs me that they are gradually replacing swipe cards with chip cards, and that for some of their credit card accounts, on request, they will issue a replacement so-called "Global" card bearing both a chip as well and a magnetic strip. I am lucky enough to have one of those accounts.

 

But maybe not so lucky as I'd hoped. In a lengthy conversation with a very nice Citi account supervisor, I was informed that Citi does not issue PINs for these dual (strip + chip) cards, and that even these dual cards require a signature. After some digging around in Citi's Customer Service Manual, she read to me some language to the effect that at self-service machines such as railway ticket machines and bicycle rental kiosks that demand a PIN, one should find an attendant (hah!) and if the attendant balks at accepting the card without punching in a PIN, "politely inform" the attendant that the card requires a signature rather than a PIN. Right. Good luck with that.

[Joy2Day]

Capital One (the card with no foreign transaction fees) and Bank of America both have informed me that that they do not issue chip cards. Citi informs me that they are gradually replacing swipe cards with chip cards, and that for some of their credit card accounts, on request, they will issue a replacement so-called "Global" card bearing both a chip as well and a magnetic strip. I am lucky enough to have one of those accounts.

 

But maybe not so lucky as I'd hoped. In a lengthy conversation with a very nice Citi account supervisor, I was informed that Citi does not issue PINs for these dual (strip + chip) cards, and that even these dual cards require a signature. After some digging around in Citi's Customer Service Manual, she read to me some language to the effect that at self-service machines such as railway ticket machines and bicycle rental kiosks that demand a PIN, one should find an attendant (hah!) and if the attendant balks at accepting the card without punching in a PIN, "politely inform" the attendant that the card requires a signature rather than a PIN. Right. Good luck with that.

 

Citi is the company that sent me a cash advance PIN and assured me it would work. It did not. But I have not tested it in the states either.

[sippican]

Capital One (the card with no foreign transaction fees) and Bank of America both have informed me that that they do not issue chip cards. Citi informs me that they are gradually replacing swipe cards with chip cards, and that for some of their credit card accounts, on request, they will issue a replacement so-called "Global" card bearing both a chip as well and a magnetic strip. I am lucky enough to have one of those accounts.

.

 

Hmmmmmm ...... Bank of America informed me that I could apply for a card with a chip. This was after speaking with a number of Customer Service Reps. If you do an online search, you will find that they issue three such cards as corporate or business cards. (The first two people I spoke with had no idea what a chip/pin card is.) I declined to apply at this time, want to do a bit more research, and it appears that we won't really need one as we already have a pin for our BOA card.

[Smbruner]

I found this while doing a search on this subject - good information and tips!

 

http://www.ricksteves.com/plan/tips/money-travel-tips.htm

[jstducky]

For anyone who has successfully used a Capital One card in Scandinavia, is the PIN a number I call Capital One about and choose my own 4 digit number to act as the PIN? Or is this a PIN that the card company has for the card that authorizes transactions that they give to you rather than you choosing it yourself? Various posts I've read describe it both ways. Can anyone clarify?

[r1955]

I was referring to the code I got from the credit card company. I was told that this is also the pin. I don't know how it works in the US but in Israel you always use a 4 digit code (that the credit company gives you, you don't choose it) in order to withdraw money from the ATM.

[Neuhoftraveler]

I don't claim to have inside knowledge on this, but my understanding based on various conversations with Capital One and Bank of America supervisors is that US swipe credit cards do not have an associated PIN unless one is requested (and selected) by the cardholder, and that transactions using such a PIN are treated as "cash advances" for the amount authorized. US debit cards do have an associated PIN, which must be used for all debit transactions.

 

I have never before heard anything like the statement on the Rick Steves website linked by Smbruner that "all US credit cards have a PIN." According to the Citi account supervisor I spoke to, quoting at length from her Manual, the few Citi credit card accounts for which a chip is currently available explicitly do not have a PIN. Period. The Citi Manual calls them "chip and signature" cards.

 

For what it's worth, I have noticed a fair amount of confusion on CC boards over the difference between credit cards, debit cards, and ATM cards (which are essentially debit cards that can be used only at an ATM, not for purchases). This confusion is compounded by the fact that many banks now contract with Visa (and possibly in some cases with MasterCard) to process transactions on the debit cards they issue, so those cards have the, e.g., Visa logo and hologram even though they're not Visa credit cards at all.

 

We leave for Scandinavia on Tuesday. Citi was nice enough to send me, by overnight delivery, a replacement credit card with chip (but no PIN). On my return at the end of June, I'll post my experience in trying to use it and my Capital One chip-less card. But I suspect we'll wind up paying with cash from ATM's, which we've been doing for some years now (because of the credit cards' foreign transaction fees) but were hoping we could now avoid.

 

Meanwhile, I will be interested to see any additional reliable information anyone can come up with.

 

One more point about the Rick Steves explanations: What are now called "foreign transaction" fees are nothing new, but for many years simply were not disclosed to the customers, just buried in the currency conversions and internally called "currency conversion" fees. The class action litigation settlement forced the disclosure of these fees (and produced modest refunds to affected consumers, including me), but the card issuers simply relabeled them "foreign transaction" fees and proceeded to apply them whether a currency conversion was involved or not. So much for reform.

[Danish viking]

On the question if the pin code follows the card then I can tell you that it is a yes.

 

If I loose the card or the pincode I will get a totally new card with a new pincode.

 

Or so it is in Denmark.:D

[Neuhoftraveler]

I don't claim to have inside knowledge on this, but my understanding based on various conversations with Capital One and Bank of America supervisors is that US swipe credit cards do not have an associated PIN unless one is requested (and selected) by the cardholder, and that transactions using such a PIN are treated as "cash advances" for the amount authorized. US debit cards do have an associated PIN, which must be used for all debit transactions.

 

I have never before heard anything like the statement on the Rick Steves website linked by Smbruner that "all US credit cards have a PIN." According to the Citi account supervisor I spoke to, quoting at length from her Manual, the few Citi credit card accounts for which a chip is currently available explicitly do not have a PIN. Period. The Citi Manual calls them "chip and signature" cards.

 

For what it's worth, I have noticed a fair amount of confusion on CC boards over the difference between credit cards, debit cards, and ATM cards (which are essentially debit cards that can be used only at an ATM, not for purchases). This confusion is compounded by the fact that many banks now contract with Visa (and possibly in some cases with MasterCard) to process transactions on the debit cards they issue, so those cards have the, e.g., Visa logo and hologram even though they're not Visa credit cards at all.

 

We leave for Scandinavia on Tuesday. Citi was nice enough to send me, by overnight delivery, a replacement credit card with chip (but no PIN). On my return at the end of June, I'll post my experience in trying to use it and my Capital One chip-less card. But I suspect we'll wind up paying with cash from ATM's, which we've been doing for some years now (because of the credit cards' foreign transaction fees) but were hoping we could now avoid.

 

Meanwhile, I will be interested to see any additional reliable information anyone can come up with.

 

One more point about the Rick Steves explanations: What are now called "foreign transaction" fees are nothing new, but for many years simply were not disclosed to the customers, just buried in the currency conversions and internally called "currency conversion" fees. The class action litigation settlement forced the disclosure of these fees (and produced modest refunds to affected consumers, including me), but the card issuers simply relabeled them "foreign transaction" fees and proceeded to apply them whether a currency conversion was involved or not. So much for reform.

 

I meant also to point out that in the US the same card often can be used either as a credit card or a debit card, at the card user's option at the point of purchase. Thus, the clerk ringing up the transaction may ask, "Credit or debit", and if the answer is debit, ask the card user to enter his or her PIN.

[Charles4515]

I don't claim to have inside knowledge on this, but my understanding based on various conversations with Capital One and Bank of America supervisors is that US swipe credit cards do not have an associated PIN unless one is requested (and selected) by the cardholder, and that transactions using such a PIN are treated as "cash advances" for the amount authorized. US debit cards do have an associated PIN, which must be used for all debit transactions.

 

I have never before heard anything like the statement on the Rick Steves website linked by Smbruner that "all US credit cards have a PIN." According to the Citi account supervisor I spoke to, quoting at length from her Manual, the few Citi credit card accounts for which a chip is currently available explicitly do not have a PIN. Period. The Citi Manual calls them "chip and signature" cards.

 

 

All think Steves statement tnat all credit cards have a pin is true. They would love you to use it for cash advances and charge you the fee. Some send it to you seperatly when you get your card. Others you have to call and have them set a pin. One of my cards is a Citi card and it has a pin. I have never used the pins on my credit cards but I know the number just in case.

[Genessa]

I don't claim to have inside knowledge on this, but my understanding based on various conversations with Capital One and Bank of America supervisors is that US swipe credit cards do not have an associated PIN unless one is requested (and selected) by the cardholder, and that transactions using such a PIN are treated as "cash advances" for the amount authorized. US debit cards do have an associated PIN, which must be used for all debit transactions.

 

 

this is my understanding, too, from having made those calls last year before our Baltic Cruise. I called and received PINs for all our cards, but they were not the same as chip and pin and were for the purpose of cash advances, which, of course, was not what I wanted.

 

we used our non-chipped Capital One everywhere last summer, with the exception of 2 places. 7-eleven at one of the train stations - can't remember the name and a kiosk for the Metro. Used non-chipped card to buy train tickets from an agent. Used non chipped card to get into Tivoli. Used cash inside Tivoli.

[lafngas]

Late last year I got the Citibank Executive MasterCard which does not incur foreign purchase transaction fees.

A few months ago, they sent me new cards that came with the chip system for international use before I even asked for it. There is a metallic square "chip" on the card and it is supposed to work everywhere. I have the PIN number memorized but will have to wait until August to see how this system works.

[shorefolks]

this is my understanding, too, from having made those calls last year before our Baltic Cruise. I called and received PINs for all our cards, but they were not the same as chip and pin and were for the purpose of cash advances, which, of course, was not what I wanted.

 

we used our non-chipped Capital One everywhere last summer, with the exception of 2 places. 7-eleven at one of the train stations - can't remember the name and a kiosk for the Metro. Used non-chipped card to buy train tickets from an agent. Used non chipped card to get into Tivoli. Used cash inside Tivoli.

 

After reading these statements about the use of credit card PINs denoting cash advances, I checked the three cards that we recently used on a Baltic cruise (R/T out of Copenhagen). Two of the cards are from Chase, and one is from Citi. Although I am fairly certain that I sometimes had to enter a PIN when using each of them, none of them showed my transactions as cash advances. Rather, they are listed in the same manner as non-PIN purchases, with no interest accruing.

[r1955]

 

 

 

For what it's worth, I have noticed a fair amount of confusion on CC boards over the difference between credit cards, debit cards, and ATM cards (which are essentially debit cards that can be used only at an ATM, not for purchases). This confusion is compounded by the fact that many banks now contract with Visa (and possibly in some cases with MasterCard) to process transactions on the debit cards they issue, so those cards have the, e.g., Visa logo and hologram even though they're not Visa credit cards at all.

 

 

 

 

When I wrote about having a chip on my card and being told that the pin is the same code I use for withdrawing money from the ATM, I was refering to my visa credit card which I use both for purchases like a regular credit card and also for withdrawing cash, depositing checks and other transactions at the ATM. For purchases at home I don't need the code number and for the ATM I do. That's how the system works in Israel. When I saw that I had a "chip" and spoke to the cc company I was told that my card was a "smart card" which I can use in case of the necessity for "chip and pin" abroad, the pin being the same code I already have for the ATM at home. I've never put it to the test but I hope it's going to work in this Baltic cruise.

[Genessa]

After reading these statements about the use of credit card PINs denoting cash advances, I checked the three cards that we recently used on a Baltic cruise (R/T out of Copenhagen). Two of the cards are from Chase, and one is from Citi. Although I am fairly certain that I sometimes had to enter a PIN when using each of them, none of them showed my transactions as cash advances. Rather, they are listed in the same manner as non-PIN purchases, with no interest accruing.

 

when I handed over my cc to pay at cash registers I said I don't have a chip and pin card. No one asked me for a pin.

 

I did try to put in my pin at the Metro station, just to see if it would work, but it wouldn't.

[SandG]

We got back from our Baltic cruise and found that in most places, we had no problem using our "swipe" card as long as we pointed out it was that type, including in Copenhagen. (We used it at a restaurant and at the Tivoli Gardens.) We sometimes had problems when trying to use ticket kiosks and we would have to go to the ticket window, and then they were able to process the card there.

 

Sue

[hal2008]

US passengers who don't have a PIN number can usually use their credit card no problem. However, the 'chip and pin' machines are becoming more extensive across Europe (its just about all we have in the UK now). As I say, you can usually use a card without a pin, but this what the machine looks like.

 

 

(there are variations, but this is a typical one)

 

You put your card (with the gold or silver coloured microchip on) in the machine, it displays the charge, you put in a 4 number pin and the transaction goes through. Nearly all outlets use them now. One big thing to be aware of. Never let the 'retailer' (especially waiters in restaurants and bars) take your card away...they can bring the machine to you. Credit card fraud is rife in the UK. Its no rpoblem if you are careful. You wouldn't let your wallet/purse out of your sight; same goes for your card.

 

Simon

 

 

The above post while ok for UK, not true for Copenhagen (where chip/pin is rule rather than exception. Being a cruise port, CPH gets many American turist and this problem is widesoread to the extent tat there are signs put up (including at ticket office window at airport) that clearly states in ENGLISH that credit cards withoit chip/pin will not be accepted. However, note that if your card has chip but not pin,it will work)

[hal2008]

Hank, I think you might be over stating the case a little, although clearly we are headed in the direction you state. Denmark may be the most progressive, but the rest of Europe is not there yet.

 

I am writing this from Innsbruck. We have been in central Europe for 3 weeks now - Germany, France, Austria, entering Switzerland tomorrow. Still have just under a week in Europe. We have been declined on our cards exactly twice. Most of the card readers see an American card and accept it. Occasionally we have to tell the cashier it is an American card, a button or two are pushed, and we have a sale.

 

Yes, some cafes and restaurants don't accept cards, but that is for everyone, not just Americans. We have used our cards at stores, gas stations, toll roads, restaurants hotels, castles, tours, you name it.

 

 

Based on recent 4 country tour, must say that Hank is correct. Although there are plemnty of places that wil laccept American style card, it is becoming more of an exception rather than rule. Banks in US have started issuing cards with chip (no pin - if you use pin it becomes cash advance with 21% interest rate) which work fine to surprise of most vendors in europe.

[hal2008]

The chip is not the problem, I do have one myself so its just the pin code you will need.

 

Chipo IS the problem is 99.99% of US cards dont have it. PIN is NOT a problem as without PIN, it can work (except at automated machine whoch is programmed to ask for pIN)

 

American credit card companies have started issuing cards with chip in it. You just have to call and ak for it. Make sure you do not associate a PIN with it as that may trigger cash adbance situation. (check with your CC bank though, rules and technology change pretty fast)

[Danish viking]

Why is the chip the problem when i have a Visa card without a chip issued by the danish bank Nordea, its only rarely that my card is not accepted.

 

However the times i have used it in Germany i just had to sign a small note so its probably just the Bank of Denmark that wants the pincode.

 

I believe that another danish user told (probably on this thread but i don´t bother looking) that the shops are only guaranteed their money if the costomer uses the pincode but i works in a huge danish retail chain called Jysk and our machines are able to ignore the pincode but in that case the computer works out for itself if a pincode is needed or not.

 

 

But in most cases a card without a pin is more likely to be declined, chip or no chip.

[minniemax]

I contacted Capitol One and they advised no cards with chips, but they are sending me a PIN #. I also checked with PenFed, where I have my Visa card - same thing - no chip, just a PIN that will be sent to me. Both PenFed and Capitol One are good in that there is no transaction fee. The only card that I have which has a chip is the DinersClub/MasterCard - however, they do charge a foreign transaction fee so I don't plan to use that card.

 

Hope one of these cards will work in the Baltic.

[JerseyJaguar]

I used my pin # (which I had requested when I got my cc) a few times in Copenhagen and when I reviewed my cc bill the other day it included all my Copenhagen purchases and they were NOT treated as cash advances, they were same as always transactions.

[FritzG]

DH contacted Cabela's Visa card, and they don't offer a chip card. The rep. told him that he could create a pin, but transactions would be subject to a huge fee.

[garden girl]

I just asked Citibank Visa about getting a PIN and I was told I did not want to do that. Every charge would be treated as a cash advance with interest rate of about 25% starting immediately. They even told me to make sure I took my regular ATM debit card along to use instead of their card! She also reminded me of the 3% foreign transaction fee but I just discovered my Chase does not have a foreign transaction fee - that's good.