Group Airfare..

[luvstwocruise]

I really dont think this is fair but they all do it the same way.
A little back ground.
I have a group wanting to travel from Pittburgh to Fort Lauderdale.
The flights arent open yet they should be open on 7.9 so I one week to prep.

I called the airlines..
they will quote you a rate, it is a rate higher than the rates on the web.

I asked why,
they said they will take the 20 lowest rates....
ie if 5 of them are 200.00rt (just made up the rates for the purpose of this post)
6 of them at 300.00 and 9 of them at 400.00, they total it and then devide it by 20.

The perks are we would all get on the same flight...and we could put a deposit and pay in full closer to the cruise

Whats your opinion?
Does anyone know is there a set number of seat for the low low price..?
Thanks

[paul929207]

Yes, there have been other posts describing the same situation. Airlines limit the number of seats at the lower prices since they are pretty sure they can sell them at higher prices.

[Gardyloo]

[quote name='luvstwocruise']
Does anyone know is there a set number of seat for the low low price..[/quote]
Yes and no.

Air tickets are subdivided into several fare "buckets" with subtle differences in terms and conditions - change fees, minimum/maximum stays, etc. etc. - most of which will be of no interest to most consumers. But each fare bucket (with designations like L, N, S, O... depending on the airline) comes at a different price.

The airlines' computers that help set pricing and availability will typically assign a mix of buckets to any given flight, so that you could be sitting next to someone who paid significantly more - or less - for his/her ticket than you did, depending on when they bought their ticket, how long they're staying, and so on.

Now a certain number of seats in any fare category will be made available for sale at any one point. When those are sold, then the next higher-priced group of seats will be sold, and so on. What happens sometimes is that the computers will decide that a particular flight isn't selling as well as they predicted, so they will re-open a fare bucket that has been "sold out" previously. You will see that as "fares coming down" when in fact all that's happened is that the airline changed its little electronic mind on that particular flight.

With a large group, you're exhausting the number of seats the airline will make available in the lowest available bucket, so it will start drawing from the next higher bucket. The agent is offering to average things out, since to the airline it makes no difference - same total dollars for the seats than if X people bought the cheap price and Y people bought the higher price.

Now you can gamble that the cheap seats will re-appear between now and the flight date, but the Y group will be sweating it out, and of course it could go the other way - the next higher bucket sells out on its own, and what's left is the one above [I]it[/I] - ouch.

If you book one seat on the web, you'll see the lowest price. Book four, probably the same. Book five or more (and most airline websites won't allow this for exactly the reason explained) and it will hiccup and tell you to call, or else charge the highest - "unrestricted" - fare, kaboom.

I think the "average" approach is reasonably fair, or you can just tell your group to buy their own tickets, maybe on other airlines.

Hope this helps, even if it's not the best news.

[luvstwocruise]

[quote name='Gardyloo']Yes and no.

Air tickets are subdivided into several fare "buckets" with subtle differences in terms and conditions - change fees, minimum/maximum stays, etc. etc. - most of which will be of no interest to most consumers. But each fare bucket (with designations like L, N, S, O... depending on the airline) comes at a different price.

The airlines' computers that help set pricing and availability will typically assign a mix of buckets to any given flight, so that you could be sitting next to someone who paid significantly more - or less - for his/her ticket than you did, depending on when they bought their ticket, how long they're staying, and so on.

Now a certain number of seats in any fare category will be made available for sale at any one point. When those are sold, then the next higher-priced group of seats will be sold, and so on. What happens sometimes is that the computers will decide that a particular flight isn't selling as well as they predicted, so they will re-open a fare bucket that has been "sold out" previously. You will see that as "fares coming down" when in fact all that's happened is that the airline changed its little electronic mind on that particular flight.

With a large group, you're exhausting the number of seats the airline will make available in the lowest available bucket, so it will start drawing from the next higher bucket. The agent is offering to average things out, since to the airline it makes no difference - same total dollars for the seats than if X people bought the cheap price and Y people bought the higher price.

Now you can gamble that the cheap seats will re-appear between now and the flight date, but the Y group will be sweating it out, and of course it could go the other way - the next higher bucket sells out on its own, and what's left is the one above [I]it[/I] - ouch.

If you book one seat on the web, you'll see the lowest price. Book four, probably the same. Book five or more (and most airline websites won't allow this for exactly the reason explained) and it will hiccup and tell you to call, or else charge the highest - "unrestricted" - fare, kaboom.

I think the "average" approach is reasonably fair, or you can just tell your group to buy their own tickets, maybe on other airlines.

Hope this helps, even if it's not the best news.[/QUOTE]

Yep thats how I thought it was..I just skipped alot of the details...But Im sure others really apprciate the in depth details :)
I think it makes business sense just dont like it for the consumers you'd think they would appreicate the business.

[Shorex]

And typically if nine people paid $400 each and five people paid $200 each, what do you imagine the conversations would be? Something like "[B]WHO[/B] decided that I have to pay more than so-and-so?!?!? It's the [B]SAME FLIGHT!!![/B] I've been [B]RIPPED OFF!!!![/B] [B]WHO[/B] is in charge of this fiasco! Why it's luvstwocruise! Off with his/her head!"

The airline is actually saving the group a great deal of dissension. Total cost is the same, and the group shares that total cost equally. You should be THANKING the airline for that group policy.

Alternatively, the group, acting as individuals, can arrange their own air, each scrambling and competing for best fare available. Either way, you are not the subject of wrath.

For consumers, purchasing air is not like purchasing gizmos. If one gizmo costs $1, ordering 100 might cost $.90 per gizmo, and 1000 might cost $.50 per gizmo. Just doesn't work that way for airfare.

[FlyerTalker]

[quote name='luvstwocruise']Yep thats how I thought it was..[B]I just skipped alot of the details.[/B]..But Im sure others really apprciate the in depth details :)[/quote]And those very details are what you need to know to understand the situation completely. Because it's the lack of that knowledge that drives people to misunderstand and complain about airline pricing (which is actually far more rational than most people believe).
[quote]I think it makes business sense just dont like it for the consumers you'd think they would appreicate the business.[/quote]ABC Airline thinks they can sell XX number of seats at one price, another YY at that price + $50, and another ZZ at an additional hundred over that. Have you seen what load factors are right now -- over 80% systemwide. What airlines don't need is "more business", they need more higher yield business not bargain shoppers.

Finally....unless your "group" absolutely needs to have a central booking and payment point of contact (such as a school group), IMO it is often better NOT to try to book it all together - for social dynamics reasons. There is always a suspicion that the "leader" is getting a better deal for themselves, that they could have done better on their own, plus the usual frictions of trying to herd groups of people into one set of behavior. Many people may want to have a different set of plans, different travel patterns and other factors.

[luvstwocruise]

Holy Cow...
I can see you have your business hat on today.
I was just hoping that with purchasing the tickets we could get them all together or get 20 of them at the lowest fair "Posted"
I wasnt out to bankrupt the airlines. Im sure that you have in your life time have thought if I buy more of these maybe I could get them for the lesser rate or a good average..you know like Sams Club, the more you buy ...
But then again, you have to know your prices shopping there some things just arent a "Deal"
Thanks for your input.

[LookingForward2]

I see you're from Jamestown, PA - have you looked at airfare from Akron/Canton also? Not sure if your group is all closer to Pittsburgh than you are or possibly even Erie? We typically find PIT the best, but not always.

If you have a large enough group - you could split them either between airlines or have them depart at seperate times - thus possibly still getting a lower fare for most of the group. just some thoughts.

[kenish]

[quote name='luvstwocruise']
I called the airlines..
they will quote you a rate, it is a rate higher than the rates on the web.

I asked why,
they said they will take the 20 lowest rates....
ie if 5 of them are 200.00rt (just made up the rates for the purpose of this post)
6 of them at 300.00 and 9 of them at 400.00, they total it and then devide it by 20.[/QUOTE]

It only appears the group rate is higher than the web rate. I assume you went on the airline's website and entered 1 person. In your example, it would show $200 while the averaged group rate is $320 per person. However, websites will always apply the highest fare bucket to the entire booking. Hence, if the website allowed you to book all 20 people, the fare would be $400 for everyone.

Most websites allow up to 8 people to be booked online at a time (AA.com is 6). Going back to your example, the first 8 would be at $300, the next 8 would be at $400, and the last 4 would be at $400. The average fare for the group is $360 if you book through the airline's website while the group fare is $320. And, as others commented you have to explain to the first 8 why their confirmation shows $300 while they're being charged $60 more. By reserving fewer people at a time, you can access the $200 fare in your example (but it changes the fare bucket dynamics and the $300 and $400 fares could disappear by doing so). The problem of some people paying more than the listed fare becomes more noticeable. If you book a group online it's a *very* good idea to get everyone's explicit agreement that you're charging an average fare to everyone.

Also, if you book online you are fronting the money and assuming reimbursement risk on behalf of your group since it's charged to your credit card. From personal experience you'd be amazed at what issues arise when it comes time for people to actually reimburse you. Even good friends can suddenly become "flaky".

Hope this explanation helps.

[FlyerTalker]

[quote name='luvstwocruise']Holy Cow...
I can see you have your business hat on today.[/quote]The "business hat" is permanently attached when I'm posting on CC. And when discussing the law, I put on my legal briefs.....

[luvstwocruise]

Yes, I have thought of all the suggestions that have been made including leaving from Pittsburgh,Akron, Erie and Cleveland. (Jamestown is 1/2 way between Pgh & Cleveland)

I have done so much planning and research for this and other vacations & cruises. I dont mind doing and and I dont expect anything for it but, I dont want to pay more either.
Were having a group meeting Sunday here in my home. I think Im going to give everyone the info,and have them make their own reservations. This way if they get a good rate wonderful if not its in their own hands. In the past there has been people who drag their feet.
Thanks for all the suggestions...if you think of any more please let me know.

[FlyerTalker]

One point that I would remind everyone....think in terms of the fare bucket inventories.

The "rule" in air ticket pricing is: For a reservation on one record, if there is more than one passenger, ALL passengers will be put into the bucket that has inventory for the whole party.

In other words (hypothetical case for example): You have four people and the airline has 3 seats in the "$100 bucket" and 8 seats in the "$400 bucket". Using your own "retail logic" you would think that you get 3 in the cheap one and 1 in the expensive one, paying $700 total. Wrong. Airline pricing would put you ALL in the expensive bucket, paying $1600. In this case, to get the best pricing for 4 tickets, you would buy 3 first (costing $300), then buy the fourth one at the higher price. You need to split the purchase.

You can see if this applies by first pricing one ticket, then pricing the whole lot. If you get a number higher than X times Y (passengers times single ticket price), then you know that you have hit the fare bucket limit. Try with smaller numbers until you get to X times Y. That's the limit of how many tickets you can get at the "cheap rate".

There have been times when Mrs FT and I have been on the same flight, but with different pricing. One of us got the last ticket at the lower level and the other got the higher one. Overall, it was cheaper than buying two at the high level. And further, there is no problem having a couple with two separate tickets. Or two couple with four separate tickets.

Is this more work? Yes. Is it worth saving money? Only you can answer that question.

[PRWeezer]

[quote name='FlyerTalker']
Is this more work? Yes. Is it worth saving money? Only you can answer that question.[/quote]

This is a trick a few of my friends with kids have used for years. They'll start out looking for 3 or 4 tickets but then always check the price for 1 or 2 at a time to be sure they're not missing better fares. Then they purchase accordingly.

I've gone on enough group ski trips to know that you just never know. Sometimes the group fare is worth buying, and sometimes it's worth doing a ground-only package and buying airfare on your own, even on the same flights as the group. And sometimes you can get lucky & score an award ticket on the same flights as the group or on a different airline with close enough schedules to meet up with the group on arrival.

The ATL Ski Club, as an example, used to limit the number of ground-only packages they would sell for a trip. I don't know the rationale (i.e. if airfare rates were based on a certain # of seats being sold, or if their profit margins were higher when flights were included...but that's not my point). My point is, over the years that thinking has changed. People aren't happy being 'forced' to buy a higher fare than they could get on their own. And many of the folks who buy these trips are frequent fliers who are savvy enough to handle their own ticketing, plus they want the freedom to use their miles for award tickets and/or fly on their airline of choice and routing of choice. IME they seem a lot more flexible on allowing ground-only packages now.

I know that won't work for every group to leave people to arrange flights on their own. But when you don't have a choice but to book the entire group together, your options may be limited.

[luvstwocruise]

OK Im back...I totally understand what your saying.
I dont like the way their making their profit but whatever...it is what it is :(

So I just got back from Walmart, I was buying Heinz Ketchup it was on sale for 99 cents.
I got 3 of them, when I was checking out I was hoping that the price was 99cents and that it didnt roll over to the next expensive bucket!! If was $1.49 I would have went to Giant Eagle.
Same thing...LOL
(just trying to make light of the situation)

[luvstwocruise]

[quote name='PRWeezer']This is a trick a few of my friends with kids have used for years. They'll start out looking for 3 or 4 tickets but then always check the price for 1 or 2 at a time to be sure they're not missing better fares. Then they purchase accordingly.

I've gone on enough group ski trips to know that you just never know. Sometimes the group fare is worth buying, and sometimes it's worth doing a ground-only package and buying airfare on your own, even on the same flights as the group. And sometimes you can get lucky & score an award ticket on the same flights as the group or on a different airline with close enough schedules to meet up with the group on arrival.

The ATL Ski Club, as an example, used to limit the number of ground-only packages they would sell for a trip. I don't know the rationale (i.e. if airfare rates were based on a certain # of seats being sold, or if their profit margins were higher when flights were included...but that's not my point). My point is, over the years that thinking has changed. People aren't happy being 'forced' to buy a higher fare than they could get on their own. And many of the folks who buy these trips are frequent fliers who are savvy enough to handle their own ticketing, plus they want the freedom to use their miles for award tickets and/or fly on their airline of choice and routing of choice. IME they seem a lot more flexible on allowing ground-only packages now.

I know that won't work for every group to leave people to arrange flights on their own. But when you don't have a choice but to book the entire group together, your options may be limited.[/QUOTE]

Oh very good idea, Thanks :)

[kenish]

[quote name='luvstwocruise']OK Im back...I totally understand what your saying.
I dont like the way their making their profit but whatever...it is what it is :(

So I just got back from Walmart, I was buying Heinz Ketchup it was on sale for 99 cents.
I got 3 of them, when I was checking out I was hoping that the price was 99cents and that it didnt roll over to the next expensive bucket!! If was $1.49 I would have went to Giant Eagle.
Same thing...LOL
(just trying to make light of the situation)[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, you absolutely cannot equate goods on the shelf to airline or hotel inventory. Whether your comments are absolutely spot-on or totally incorrect, it's hardly fair to be critical without a good understanding of their commodity pricing model. Otherwise, I should criticize Wal-mart that I bought a bottle of ketchup a day before you did, and we were charged the same price... I should have paid less since the supply was higher and the demand lower at the time I bought. And, I did Wal-mart and Heinz the favor of removing one bottle of ketchup from the supply chain, relieved them of inventory costs, and allowed them to record the revenue a day sooner. :)

Being somewhat savvy about airfares over the past 2 decades, the current airfare and hotel room pricing model is thanks to you and me, the consumer. Other pricing models have been unsuccessfully tried...consumers have voted for what we have with our wallets.

[luvstwocruise]

../

[euro cruiser]

[quote name='kenish']With all due respect, you absolutely cannot equate goods on the shelf to airline or hotel inventory. Whether your comments are absolutely spot-on or totally incorrect, it's hardly fair to be critical without a good understanding of their commodity pricing model. Otherwise, I should criticize Wal-mart that I bought a bottle of ketchup a day before you did, and we were charged the same price... I should have paid less since the supply was higher and the demand lower at the time I bought. And, I did Wal-mart and Heinz the favor of removing one bottle of ketchup from the supply chain, relieved them of inventory costs, and allowed them to record the revenue a day sooner. :)[/quote]
To take this one step further, as a consumer I may not care that WalMart hires the most minimally capable employees, pays them as little as possible, and doesn't worry overmuch about their knowledge and safety procedures because the potential harm to me should WalMart's employees screw up is minimal.

As a consumer of commerical airline services, I'm a lot more concerned about the quality of the employees providing the service, whether or not (and how well) they are trained, and if they have a union making sure that adequate training is provided and safety rules are followed.

[LookingForward2]

@ luvstwocruise - I for one got your joke about the ketchup.... just glad you were buying Heinz!
I live in New Castle, not too far from you. We are planning a group of 8 cruising together and for the first time ever, I've taken the approach of 'get your own airfare, cruise reservations, excursions, etc.' It's been hard for me because I am always the planner and try to get people the best deals. This trip when I see a price drop, good airfare, etc. I will email or call the people and I have heard "will you call for me and get that?" I guess I've spoiled them.

Our next cruise airfare is Pit to Orlando and I've been keeping an eye on the pricing, when it went down one day ($120 each way) I booked it, the others are still waiting.... I think our days of under $200 RT airfares are over.

Good luck with your meeting on Sunday - just curious, do you have a cruise themed gathering?

[luvstwocruise]

[quote name='LookingForward2']@ luvstwocruise - I for one got your joke about the ketchup.... just glad you were buying Heinz!
I live in New Castle, not too far from you. We are planning a group of 8 cruising together and for the first time ever, I've taken the approach of 'get your own airfare, cruise reservations, excursions, etc.' It's been hard for me because I am always the planner and try to get people the best deals. This trip when I see a price drop, good airfare, etc. I will email or call the people and I have heard "will you call for me and get that?" I guess I've spoiled them.

Our next cruise airfare is Pit to Orlando and I've been keeping an eye on the pricing, when it went down one day ($120 each way) I booked it, the others are still waiting.... I think our days of under $200 RT airfares are over.

Good luck with your meeting on Sunday - just curious, do you have a cruise themed gathering?[/QUOTE]

New Castle were neighbors! :)
Thanks maybe is a Northwestern Pa thing. I never mentioned that the group rates they quoted me were $700.00! But I learned that there is a reason for that because of the price buckets..:( Anyhow, I agree 120.00 I would have jumped on it..glad you snagged a deal.
My theme is a beach/nautical theme meeting. Usually we go to Panera Bread or Starbucks and meet (WiFi) but were just coming here this time.
If your going to Orlando, can I recommend Allegiant..(out of Youngstown) I went to Myrtle last year for $29.00 and tax!!! It would have cost me more to drive to Pittsburgh... I was going to go to St Petersburg for 89.00 but by the time I got everyone/family on the phn the, price jumped up so we didnt go.

[notentirelynormal]

I've booked group airfare twice. The first was from LAX to New Zealand and back from Sydney. We got an amazing fare. It worked out wonderful.

The second was from LAX to MIA on AA. While the price wasn't the best that was out there, it was just okay for what we could have got. For me the advantage was:
1) our price was locked in for 8 months before the trip
2) we were able to pick our seats so we knew who was sitting where
3) no one had to pay until around 30 days before and each person could pay individually rather than one person pay for all

We only had to pay a deposit for the group which I just put towards what I would have had to pay anyway. I got to choose where everyone sat so we were all together in the seats that I liked.

Maybe we could have done better BUT the price was locked, the seats were guaranteed and it was a convenient way to do it for our group.

Domestic travel doesn't get you the best price but internationally, it was way better then booking it individually. I know we paid less for premium economy then those in economy. I also know that the ones that chose economy in our group paid much less then the going price.

[First Time 2008]

I too have booked group travel only twice. One was on US Airways LIS-SFO-LIS (26 passengers), another on Southwest LAS-LAX (45 passengers). It is interesting to know that these were the same people. Our group were actually 49 passengers. But while most everyone bought into the Southwest deal (the 4 that didn't drove it), only 26 of the 49 bought into the US Airways deal (the others flew other airlines, other routes, or used miles, all at similar times, and the group met up at both ends). This was a very good arrangement, because we could offer group fares to those that saw a benefit in those fares, while allowing individuals to make their own different decision if it fit them better. No one was forced into the group fares.

While the group fares were, as you observed, not as good as the lowest fare available for individual tickets, there were several advantages:

[LIST=1]
[*]We could book months in advance and lock in the fare without having to put a single penny down. This was very important for many people.
[*]Final payment was due 30 days (US Airways) or 45 days (Southwest) prior to departure.
[*]Passenger names were not needed until payment time. If someone bails out, you can perhaps find a replacement.
[*]We were allowed to cancel a small number (10%, I believe) prior to final payment, and still retain the same group rate. This was also very important. The group was self-insuring, in a sense: as long as only 10% of the group had an event that prevented travel, they could cancel without penalty and not affect the rest of the group.
[/LIST]
I think the success of our use of group fares was that we did not force anyone into them. The ones that participated did so voluntarily, deciding that the possible higher premium was worth it for the benefits.

Side note: in our case, the US Airways group made out like bandits. The initial quote was in Euros. Between the time of reservation and payment US Airways underwent a system conversion (due to the IT merger with America West) and miraculously the group fare became the same number -- but in US dollars! The 26 that had signed up for the US Airways group laughed all the way to the bank with their 30% savings.

[LookingForward2]

[quote name='luvstwocruise']New Castle were neighbors! :)
Thanks maybe is a Northwestern Pa thing. I never mentioned that the group rates they quoted me were $700.00! But I learned that there is a reason for that because of the price buckets..:( Anyhow, I agree 120.00 I would have jumped on it..glad you snagged a deal.
My theme is a beach/nautical theme meeting. Usually we go to Panera Bread or Starbucks and meet (WiFi) but were just coming here this time.
If your going to Orlando, can I recommend Allegiant..(out of Youngstown) I went to Myrtle last year for $29.00 and tax!!! It would have cost me more to drive to Pittsburgh... I was going to go to St Petersburg for 89.00 but by the time I got everyone/family on the phn the, price jumped up so we didnt go.[/QUOTE]

We are neighbors - that's why I wanted to chime in! We did check Allegiant, but there were no flights available - not sure what that's about. Funny, we met with our friends today and they wanted to know our flight arrangements (even after I've already told them...) Then she wanted to know how we got that low price (because of course it's gone up now). Like I said this is the first time I've let go and let everyone make their own arrangements and it's killing me that they aren't getting good deals.

Good luck with your planning party! It looks like you've gotten some good responses on this thread. Let us know what you decide.

[ItsAllAboutTheSass]

[quote name='kenish']With all due respect, you absolutely cannot equate goods on the shelf to airline or hotel inventory. Whether your comments are absolutely spot-on or totally incorrect, it's hardly fair to be critical without a good understanding of their commodity pricing model. Otherwise, I should criticize Wal-mart that I bought a bottle of ketchup a day before you did, and we were charged the same price... I should have paid less since the supply was higher and the demand lower at the time I bought. And, I did Wal-mart and Heinz the favor of removing one bottle of ketchup from the supply chain, relieved them of inventory costs, and allowed them to record the revenue a day sooner. :)

Being somewhat savvy about airfares over the past 2 decades, the current airfare and hotel room pricing model is thanks to you and me, the consumer. Other pricing models have been unsuccessfully tried...consumers have voted for what we have with our wallets.[/quote]


We always put gas in the car in the morning on the way to work. Sometimes we are there at the same time as the tanker. I always tell my wife that the price of gas should be higher in the afternoon because supply is lower at that time.

[kenish]

[quote name='Thestapels']We always put gas in the car in the morning on the way to work. Sometimes we are there at the same time as the tanker. I always tell my wife that the price of gas should be higher in the afternoon because supply is lower at that time.[/QUOTE]

But if you don't buy the gas, they can store it until it sells. Now, this is a weak and possibly bad analogy, but how would the gas station price things if any unsold gas had to be destroyed at midnight and they had to accept a daily delivery of gasoline whether they needed it or not...and if they constantly ended up with too much gas, they could roll back deliveries for the season but also at a significant cost too? They would start giving discounts to people who bought and paid for gas in advance, charge more for people who couldn't plan ahead and bought gas only a few days ahead, and kept a little gas unsold for people running on fumes willing to pay top dollar.

Sound familiar?