Aussies being ripped off, price gorging and the ACCC.

[Pushka]

The price differential has nothing to do with auto tips.

[GHDPeter]

If you believe that a business has false or misleading advertising then lodge a complaint

 

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/815323

 

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/54217

 

If there is no complaint then there can be no investigation.

[antipodean99]

I think this is the reason that "shop front TA's" are a dying breed! They will be out of business in a few years, if they don't change!!!

 

 

You've hit the nail right on the head. Agents who work for free are a dying breed indeed. They are the ones too scared to say "it will cost you so and so much if you want me to do this work for you". That's right - it is called being paid for work. A strange concept I know but hey, that's how the economy works. Whether the cruise has or has not happened is completely irrelevant - the work has been done.

The change you are reffering to is definitely happening.

It's called "fee for service" simply because there is less and less commissions in everything agents sell, cruising included.

[iRate]

Rules for some - rules for others.

 

 

And for us Aussies.

 

Cancellation of cruise

 

Days Prior to Cruise Departure Cancellation Charges

 

151 or more days deposit is refundable

150-71 days loss of deposit

70-46 days 25% of fare *

45-31 days 50% of fare *

30-15 days 75% of fare *

14 days or less 100% of fare

 

Holiday Sailings – Christmas, New Year & Easter

 

Days Prior to Cruise Departure Cancellation Charges

 

151 or more days deposit is refundable

150-91 days loss of deposit

90-61 days 25% of fare *

60-41 days 50% of fare *

40-25 days 75% of fare *

24 days or less 100% of fare

*In instances where the deposit amount paid is higher than the 25/50/75% of cruise fare cancellation charge, then the highest of the two amounts is payable as the cancellation charge, i.e. the full deposit amount is retained.

 

When I get time I'll come back and put these in a table side by side.

[sherri3802au]

 

if you buy through a TA you are entering into TWO contracts; one with a cruiseline and one with a TA. Two separate business entities, two sets of rules.

 

and oh yes, why is it OK for a cruiseline to keep a deposit after a certain point even though they have not provided any services at that point ?

I can see both sides of this.

I have read a lot about conditions in USA where people can get all their deposit back and in a lot of cases, switch bookings and so on, all with no penalty. Over here, we often pay a large deposit and lose it if we don't go ahead.

I think in some ways the US system is too generous, while ours is too harsh.

If someone goes ahead with a booking, I don't see why the entire amount should be refundable, because the people in a travel agency have put in some paper work on it and time is money.

 

I think often consumers can expect things for free when really, they come at a cost to the provider. For example, my brother in law is a builder and says he is thinking of charging for detailed quotes because some of them can take him several hours to prepare. Fair enough, I say. He is willing to give a rough estimate but if people want exact details, they can pay.

I think we might find there is more of this-where people pay for a detailed quote.

 

So.. I would say it is reasonable that people lose some of a deposit, but perhaps not all of it if it has been a large deposit.

And if people wish to upgrade, that should be a possibility without penalty if it is still a fair way out from the cruise.

 

I have read about people in USA getting it cheaper if the price falls. As a buyer, I would love that. But I have to admit, if I buy something in a shop and then see it next week cheaper, then that's just bad luck. Things get marked down all the time, so I am not sure cruise lines owe it to us to give us the marked down prices.

And I say that sadly, as a person who saw a balcony cabin going for the exact same rate I paid for an inside cabin on that cruise.:mad:

But that's life.:p Typical for me, anyway.;)

[iRate]

to iRate,

 

I think you might be mistaken. I don't believe that any company advertising cruises in Australia are advertising non inclusive fares, if they were they would be subject to fines and you'd be watching them on the 6:30 pm current affairs programs.

 

The fares that are advertised in the "from" pricings are the quad share, one deck below water level, inside cabins. I know because I just booked one.

 

On my upcoming Sydney - Brisbane 2 night cruise on the Sun Princess there was a cabin advertised for $169. The fine print was that it was twin share and inside, and for past passengers only. As I travel solo, and I am a past passenger, I was able to get an inside cabin, single occupancy, deck 5 ( K class ) for $318 total.

 

For my upcoming Xmas cruise I have booked a Balcony G'tee on the Sun Princess, single occupancy, BE Class ( there are only 4 on the ship , and being a past passenger was quoted $4798. The same cabin is advertised as $2999 per person twin share.

 

But the prices that are headlined in advertisements and in brochures are always the lowest class, most shares, and lowest seasons. Thats why they are "from *" prices. The same applies to airlines and any other business that is subject to seasonal changes in business. If you can travel outside of peak season you will always get the cheapest price, you might not get the best weather though.

 

That is 100% true in your case and I've checked Princess, at least for cruises within Australia they are abiding by the law and are not using component pricing. They do advertise prices starting at "x" are are able to do that provided the taxes and services fees are within that fare. Which they are/

 

But I urge you to go have a look at Celebrity and RCCL. Both owned by RCCL.

 

The difference in the "FROM PRICE" they quote is simply and only made up of taxes AND services fees (gratuities)

 

And I agree with you, they should be on Today Tonight.

[iRate]

If you believe that a business has false or misleading advertising then lodge a complaint

 

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/815323

 

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/54217

 

If there is no complaint then there can be no investigation.

 

I have already lodged a complaint prior to starting this thread and I urge others to do the same.

[Kiwi_cruiser]

You guys who think we are being ripped off can show your displeasure by removing your auto tips and telling the cruise line, the Captain, the Purser, the Maitre'D, the Hotel Manager, why !!! Think about it !! The revolution !!!

 

The only problem with is that on some lines like Royal Caribbean, Carnival, Cunard etc.. is that you CANNOT take the tips OFF!!!

 

That’s most likely one reason we will NEVER cruise Royal Caribbean, as the tips for the 3 off us will be quite a LOT! (Especially for a 10+ day cruise!)

[GHDPeter]

I don't believe that you have to have suffered a loss for a complaint to be raised

What is misleading & deceptive conduct?

 

There is a very broad provision in the Australian Consumer Law that prohibits conduct by a corporation that is misleading or deceptive, or would be likely to mislead or deceive you.

 

It makes no difference whether the business intended to mislead or deceive you—it is how the conduct of the business affected your thoughts and beliefs that matters.

 

If the overall impression left by an advertisement, promotion, quotation, statement or other representation made by a business creates a misleading impression in your mind—such as to the price, value or the quality of any goods and services—then the conduct is likely to breach the law.

 

There are also special laws relevant to price advertising and promotions. A business risks breaching the law if it:

 

makes inaccurate or misleading price comparisons (for example 'was' and 'now' prices)

represents that an advertised price is the total price that you will have to pay when in fact it is not

advertises goods and services at a specific price when it is, or should have been aware, that it would not be able to supply enough of the good at the price for a reasonable amount of time. This is called bait advertising.

 

Component pricing

 

When advertising or promoting the price of products or services, traders must specify a single total price that you will have to pay. It is unlawful for traders to represent that an advertised price is the total price when it is not.

 

The ACCC has taken action based on misleading advertising ( Harvey Norman 3D TV's), Apple ( 4G iPad ) just to name a couple.

 

The cruise companies that have offices and bases in Australia abide by the rules of advertising.

 

It seems to me that there are 2 issues for you here. One, that the prices advertised by companies may not be the all inclusive price, and two, that the prices offered to those in other countries through the "local" sales avenues may be at a different price when currency fluctuations are taken into account.

 

I believe you have it within your power to make a complaint against companies that are engaging in false or misleading practises here in Australia. I don't believe that you have the grounds to make a complaint against global companies that offer differing pricings based on the geographic or socioeconomic circumstances. For example Princess Cruises offer a benefit to to active military, retired military and disabled military veterans with proper identification in the following service divisions: United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, National Guard or Reserves, Canadian National Defense and the British Army, Royal Marines, Royal Navy, Royal Air Force or Reserves but this is not offered to Australians who are cruising Is that grounds for complaint as well?

 

I understand where you are coming from, but if you believe there are grounds then make a complaint.

[iRate]

The ACCC is responsible for administering the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 which incorporates the Australian Consumer Law (ACL). The ACL is a national law which applies to all business sectors. It covers general standards of business conduct, prohibits harmful practices, regulates specific types of business-to-consumer transactions, provides basic consumer rights for goods and services and regulates the safety of consumer products and product-related services.

 

The ACL provides a range of provisions that protect consumers when they purchase goods or services. Section 18 of the ACL is a broad provision which prohibits a person, in trade or commerce, from engaging in conduct which is misleading or deceptive, or which is likely to mislead or deceive. Additionally, it is a requirement under section 48 that a supplier must not promote or state a price that is only part of the cost that a consumer must pay for goods or services, unless also prominently promoting or stating the single (total) price. This applies to the supply and promotion of goods or services usually used for personal, domestic or household use or consumption.

 

The single price must be:

clear at the time of the sale

as prominent as the most prominent component of the price.

 

The single price is the total of all quantifiable (“measurable”) costs. An amount is quantifiable if it can be readily converted into a dollar amount. Where a price includes both quantifiable and non-quantifiable charges, the quantifiable charges should be stated as a single figure and it should be clear to consumers that not all components are included.

 

The single price must include:

any charge payable, such as administration fees, compulsory service charges, booking fees; and

the amount of any tax, duty, fee, levy or charges payable by the consumer for the supply of the good or service (for example, GST)

 

 

The single price need not include:

optional extras the consumer may choose to purchase;

sending charges – unless the supplier is aware of a minimum charge that must be paid;

any non-quantifiable components; or

any third-party payments paid by the supplier that are not passed on to the consumer.

 

There are two exceptions to the rule that the single price must be shown at least as prominently as any component. These are:

o where the representation is made exclusively to another business; and

o where services are supplied under a contract (for a term) that also provides for periodic payments. In these circumstances, the prominent single price need not be as prominent as any other component.

 

The ACCC does not offer an individual dispute resolution service; therefore, if you wish to pursue a remedy for loss or damages as a result of prohibited conduct, and you are unable to resolve this matter through either verbal or written communications, you may wish to contact Consumer Affairs Victoria on 1300 558 181 or http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au. Local fair trading or consumer affairs agencies can suggest a range of strategies that you may wish to explore to resolve your concerns. They can also provide information on how to make a claim through the small claims court or tribunal should this become necessary.

 

Your complaint has been recorded by the ACCC and will be used in monitoring whether there is a pattern of conduct by or a pattern within the cruise ship industry which may raise concerns and will be used to inform the ACCC’s compliance and enforcement activities. Whilst individual complaints also form the basis of investigations, it must be noted that the ACCC does not comment on matters we may or may not be investigating and the ACCC is unable to provide you with further information of any action we may or may not be taking in relation to your complaint. Please also note that the ACCC will only contact you again in relation to your complaint if we require further information or evidence to assist in our enquiries.

[iRate]

Hi all,

 

There is a similar thread but with more detailed responses and links. Think it might be preferable if we consolidate all the great info and evidence we are compiling in one place.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1692050&page=4

[iRate]

The only problem with is that on some lines like Royal Caribbean, Carnival, Cunard etc.. is that you CANNOT take the tips OFF!!!

 

That’s most likely one reason we will NEVER cruise Royal Caribbean, as the tips for the 3 off us will be quite a LOT! (Especially for a 10+ day cruise!)

 

I know where you are coming from - only problem is if you you don't pay the suggested tips the cabin attendants, wait and bar staff are the ones who get screwed over, not the cruise lines, because they only do the job for the tips as the wages are insanely low.

 

And actually one aspect of your comment is relevant to the discussion here because if, as many of the cruise lines do down here, force you to pay the tips, that MUST by law be included in the advertised price. And that is a big part of this thread.

 

If you incurred extra expenses that you didn't expect or was not made plain to you, for example if your cruise was advertised as from "x" and the tip policy was not made clear, I urge you to contact the ACCC in Australia or your local consumer body. That's why I started this thread.

[iRate]

Ive been ripped off by TAs here in Australia.

 

I found the cruise in brochure, checked the conditions, worked out the fare and deposit required booked it online and then phoned the cruise line about how i could pay the deposit. They told me to go to a TA.

 

Which i did, gave them the booking ref and paid the deposit.

 

Some time later I decided to book a different cruise. Went back to the TA to get my deposit back, well outside the cancellation penalties in the brochure and was told. Sorry we keep that deposit as a booking fee.

 

Needless to say I had words with them.

 

Without me kicking and screaming I never would have got my money back.

 

I have since discovered you can book and pay with the cruise line direct. That way you avoid all the nonsense above.

 

But beware. Cruise lines have fare rules and cancellation fees which are more restrictive and harsh than in the USA. Interesting discussion on this thread [url=http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1692050][/url] about consumer law/protections re non us residents booking using US based TAs.

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1692050

 

If you have insurance, do research, check about no booking fees, you should be fine. I use US based agents all the time.

 

And despite what cruise lines say, I've never known of one single case of them refusing boarding for non US residents using USA TAs. It's just another cruise line scam. Perhaps the biggest.

[The_Big_M]

I can see both sides of this.

I have read a lot about conditions in USA where people can get all their deposit back and in a lot of cases, switch bookings and so on, all with no penalty. Over here, we often pay a large deposit and lose it if we don't go ahead.

I think in some ways the US system is too generous, while ours is too harsh.

 

I'm with you on this. There's a justification for a fee being kept - but at the same time, charging someone close to (or more than!) a thousand dollars for the work is over the top. Doing so might win you the 'battle' but I'd be very surprised if any customer ever came back to you after experiencing that.

[Oz_Steve]

 

I'm with you on this. There's a justification for a fee being kept - but at the same time, charging someone close to (or more than!) a thousand dollars for the work is over the top. Doing so might win you the 'battle' but I'd be very surprised if any customer ever came back to you after experiencing that.

 

 

Its not just that customer, it is also the 20 people that they tell and the 10 people that they tell and the five people that they tell....

[Kiwi_cruiser]

And actually one aspect of your comment is relevant to the discussion here because if, as many of the cruise lines do down here, force you to pay the tips, that MUST by law be included in the advertised price.

 

I think you may find because some of the ships that are sailing down here from the USA like Royal Caribbean ships, Celebrity ships etc….that those law about tips etc.. been included in the advertised price, may not apply to those ships, as they are only in Australia & New Zealand waters for a short season each year.

 

It’s like when we started cruising back in 2006, P&O Australia use to charge you tips (But we took them off), and even when we did our first Princess cruise back in 2010 Princess use to charge you tips, but both lines no longer do. (Although if you sail on the US based Diamond Princess, you will still get changed for tips (But you can take them off).

 

I think for those US based ships that come down under to sail from Australia & New Zealand that force people to pay for tips, should be forced to make the tipping optional! For Australia and New Zealand people.

 

<snip>If you incurred extra expenses that you didn't expect or was not made plain to you, for example if your cruise was advertised as from "x" and the tip policy was not made clear</snip>

 

In my option if you did not read the cruise line website, especially about what you need to pay for (e.g.: Food, drink, tours etc....), then I hate to say it it’s your own fault, for not doing your homework. (and a lot of people don’t do there home work, and realise on the information there travel agent give them (and some times the information the travel agent gives people is either out of date or wrong (especially if the agent has not done a cruise them self’s)

[Kiwi_cruiser]

I urge you to contact the ACCC in Australia or your local consumer body.

 

I don't think the consumer body here in NZ would care about this, as none of the cruise line do many cruise from NZ!!).

[Oz_Steve]

If you take the tips off you should still tip the staff. That is one of the reasons the cruiselines give for higher prices in Aus. They build the tips into the fare as the staff get screwed otherwise. You can't demand a low as possible price and then not pay the extra's that go with the price. Americans expect to pay the tips and get low rates. If you want the low rates you should pay the tips, the flat pay rates of the crew are scandously low by aussie and probably nz standards. Tips are included in the pay expectations of staff.

[ducklite]

I wish I could get Florida resident rates.

 

(I live in California)

 

And I wish I lived closer to Tahiti. :D (I'm in Florida)

 

As has been pointed out, for a number of reasons it costs the cruise industry more to do business with Aussies, and those costs are reflected accordingly. Well, and the gratuities built into the pricing as too many Aussies couldn't understand the concept of "When in Rome."

[Aus Traveller]

If you take the tips off you should still tip the staff. That is one of the reasons the cruiselines give for higher prices in Aus. They build the tips into the fare as the staff get screwed otherwise. You can't demand a low as possible price and then not pay the extra's that go with the price. Americans expect to pay the tips and get low rates. If you want the low rates you should pay the tips, the flat pay rates of the crew are scandously low by aussie and probably nz standards. Tips are included in the pay expectations of staff.

I think you misunderstand the point that some people have been making:).

 

They are not complaining that a 7 night cruise in Australia is more expensive than a 7 night cruise from an American port, they are complaining that (for instance) a 7 night American cruise will cost us more than the same cruise will cost Americans. Everyone would pay tips on that cruise so tipping is not the reason for the difference.:)

[Aus Traveller]

You've hit the nail right on the head. Agents who work for free are a dying breed indeed. They are the ones too scared to say "it will cost you so and so much if you want me to do this work for you". That's right - it is called being paid for work. A strange concept I know but hey, that's how the economy works. Whether the cruise has or has not happened is completely irrelevant - the work has been done.

The change you are reffering to is definitely happening.

It's called "fee for service" simply because there is less and less commissions in everything agents sell, cruising included.

There are many service jobs where people work 'for nothing'. An example - I have recently been shopping for something to wear to our daughter's wedding and my husband has been shopping for a new suit. We both spent a lot of time (me more than him:)) in shops trying on clothes. He bought from only one shop and I didn't buy from any because I decided to make something. These shop assistants who didn't make a sale would have each spent more time with us than a TA would who makes a cruise booking for us. We don't go to a TA for advice or information.

 

I have no objection if a TA keeps (say) $100 for their work (which would often be fairly minimal if the customer knows which cruise they want to book), but I do object to them keeping the whole deposit.

[Aus Traveller]

Ive been ripped off by TAs here in Australia.

 

I found the cruise in brochure, checked the conditions, worked out the fare and deposit required booked it online and then phoned the cruise line about how i could pay the deposit. They told me to go to a TA.

 

Which i did, gave them the booking ref and paid the deposit.

 

Some time later I decided to book a different cruise. Went back to the TA to get my deposit back, well outside the cancellation penalties in the brochure and was told. Sorry we keep that deposit as a booking fee.

Shop around for a TA. Maybe you didn't ask him/her if they charge a fee if you cancel. Not all of them do, and some only charge a nominal amount.:)

 

I have to say that the situation you found yourself in was partly of your own making by not enquiring before you booked with that agent. I think I know who it was.:)

[Pushka]

And I have just had two builders quote for renovations. Both had to drive to our place, a minimum of 20 minutes, and spend 30 minutes to discuss and measure up, drive back and then prepare the quote. Both can't do the job.

In our work we have to prepare tenders to get some jobs. These can take more than a day in some cases. We certainly never always get the job. One potential client didn't contract us and then we learnt they implemented our approach but internally.

[Oz_Steve]

I think you misunderstand the point that some people have been making:).

 

They are not complaining that a 7 night cruise in Australia is more expensive than a 7 night cruise from an American port, they are complaining that (for instance) a 7 night American cruise will cost us more than the same cruise will cost Americans. Everyone would pay tips on that cruise so tipping is not the reason for the difference.:)

 

I understand the point, I have been one of those making it. I should have included the response I was replying to. One of the responses stated that the tips for Aussie and kiwi cruises should be removed. They were objecting to having compulsory tips from what I read.

[Pushka]

I'll say it again. Tips do not explain the price difference. Just like GST doesn't explain the price differential between Australian and international online prices.