Aussies being ripped off, price gorging and the ACCC.

[Dizziedi]

if you are a house BUYER you have to leave a deposit that is non refundable wheterer you proceed with the transaction or not. So you've inadvertently pointed out that travel is not the only industry that does it - thank you.[/quote]

 

After many years in the legal profession, I can assure you, this is incorrect. Providing you have not formally exchanged contracts, the deposit is refundable - that's the law. If you exchange contracts with a cooling-off period and decide not to proceed, then the purchaser will lose .25% of the purchase price but only in that case.

 

Cheers

Di

[antipodean99]

if you are a house BUYER you have to leave a deposit that is non refundable wheterer you proceed with the transaction or not. So you've inadvertently pointed out that travel is not the only industry that does it - thank you.[/quote]

 

After many years in the legal profession, I can assure you, this is incorrect. Providing you have not formally exchanged contracts, the deposit is refundable - that's the law. If you exchange contracts with a cooling-off period and decide not to proceed, then the purchaser will lose .25% of the purchase price but only in that case.

 

Cheers

Di

 

Well, and I can assure you that paying a deposit is an equivalent to exchange of contracts. I have the current P&O brochure in my hand and it says: "Terms and Conditions: ... You are entering into this contract with Carnival plc trading as P&O Cruises blah blah blah ,... Once we have received a payment on a booking, an agreement on these 'Terms & Conditions' becomes effective between all passengers and Carnival plc."

 

It's a legal contract all right.

[rkmw]

The difference is - travel agents sell convinience/skills/knowledge/experience/security and their TIME.

It's up to you to determine if they actually have any of these before commiting. No different from a lawyer or an accountant - whether you win or lose you still have to pay them for whatever they do on your behalf. Coz they actually have to DO something.

 

Alternatively you can do it all yourself online - then it's free. I have absolutely no problem with that.

 

And as for a real estate agent - he is hired by the house owner - not by the buyer. If the house is not sold then of course - why should the house seller pay the commission. But last time I looked - if you are a house BUYER you have to leave a deposit that is non refundable wheterer you proceed with the transaction or not. So you've inadvertently pointed out that travel is not the only industry that does it - thank you.

 

do travel agents have to do a course at tafe or something similar because some of them know very little at cruising, a good cruising TA would go on cruises so if any peple asked questions they could answer those questions....we went into a B&M shop and the TA did not know what a guarantee cabin was

[icat2000]

 

Well, and I can assure you that paying a deposit is an equivalent to exchange of contracts. I have the current P&O brochure in my hand and it says: "Terms and Conditions: ... You are entering into this contract with Carnival plc trading as P&O Cruises blah blah blah ,... Once we have received a payment on a booking, an agreement on these 'Terms & Conditions' becomes effective between all passengers and Carnival plc."

 

It's a legal contract all right.

 

Yes. However don't those same conditions state that if you cancel within a certain period there is no penalty. Where does it say, but your travel Agent might keep the deposit.

[antipodean99]

do travel agents have to do a course at tafe or something similar because some of them know very little at cruising, a good cruising TA would go on cruises so if any peple asked questions they could answer those questions....we went into a B&M shop and the TA did not know what a guarantee cabin was

 

this one did - a four year Assoc Diplonma Course at TAFE.

but that's 25 years ago, things have changed a lot since then, the industry is completely messed up with consultants who wouldn't know the most basic of basics.

so I agree - you should do your homework as to who you are dealing with, same as you would with your doctor, accountant, lawyer, car mechanic etc etc.

[iRate]

All the major cruise lines practice Differential Pricing in Australia for the same cruises sold in the US and Canada for usually much lower fares .

 

It is like the marketing nonsense that goes on with brochure and launch fares which no one ever really pays . So Caveat Emptor - BUYER BEWARE.

 

It is illegal in Australia to quote a travel price and then add on extras like tipping, port charges etc .(The fare quoted must be the final total fare including all hidden and compulsory on charges.)

 

The ACCC has juristiction only within Australia so it is illegal for a Cruise line to dictate to any seller what price he must sell that product at .

 

There is supposedly a FREE Trade Agreement between the USA and Australia, and some smart cruiser should query whether retail price maintenance and refusing to sell to Australian customers is a breach of that free trade agreement .

 

Exactly!

 

And that was why I started this thread, it's time to shine a light on there dirty little secrets - I've previously looked into the Free Trade Agreement between Australia and the USA and although there are certain exceptions for pricing - there are also increased protections for people from both countries to pursue multinationals for breeches of local laws - which is exactly the what has been happening here in Australia.

 

 

 

 

These cruise lines are big multi nations and there is simply no excuse for them know knowing the law, nor abiding by it

[iRate]

Without getting into the details, is it because the OZ cruise fares contain the $11 a day service charges, whilst the US ones do not?

 

No there are many instances where the fares charged to Aussie are hundreds, sometimes thousands of dollars more for exactly the same cruise when the 'gratuities' are taken out of the equation.

[iRate]

We (and a few hundred other Aussies) booked a 49 night cruise on the Grand Princess out of Fort Lauderdale. Obviously everyone on board will have to pay the daily tip. The American price was '+ port fees' where the price for Aussies was a flat amount that was lower than the US total price. Several Aussies were complaining that our price was higher until I pointed out that they had to read the fine print and add the $615 port fees. They stopped complaining then, but didn't say "Gee, it isn't fair that we Aussies are getting the cruise cheaper than the Americans". :)

 

From what I have seen on other occasions, Americans booking Australian cruises pay more than we do and often we pay more than they do when booking American cruises - although we have one cruise where that isn't the case.

 

When putting information together take care that you are not comparing the brochure price available to passengers well ahead of the cruise with a 'special' price offered to sell unsold cabins.

 

Agreed it has to be apples for apples - tax either included or totally removed to get an accurate comparison

.

[antipodean99]

 

Yes. However don't those same conditions state that if you cancel within a certain period there is no penalty. Where does it say, but your travel Agent might keep the deposit.

 

if you buy through a TA you are entering into TWO contracts; one with a cruiseline and one with a TA. Two separate business entities, two sets of rules.

 

and oh yes, why is it OK for a cruiseline to keep a deposit after a certain point even though they have not provided any services at that point ?

[iRate]

First thing to consider is that MANY of the cruiselines redirect Aussies to an "Aussie only" website when they try to access a ****.COM website.

 

EG Cunard.com redirects to Cunardline.com.au and Royalcaribbean.com redirects to Royalcaribbean.com.au.

 

Prices on these websites are shown in AUD - and the exchange rate to do this is not current. The Australian office of P&O uses an exchange rate for purchases of product from P&O UK which is grossly disadvantageous to Aussie customers.

 

Barry

 

Yes Barry you are quite correct here.

 

When you go to most of the big cruise lines from within Australia - you will by automatically by default get a local 'mirror' site that will list prices in AUD. But the main site is actually located in the USA.

 

These are often called 'international gateway' pages (as with celebrity) or some similar term for other cruise lines. Often they are hidden.

 

For example on the celebrity website if you change from the Australian gateway to the USA gateway, hey presto you see what prices Celebrity are charging USA residents. Now as people have already said you need to ensure that taxes, port charges and fees are included to compare 'apples with apples'.

 

Any attempt to buy fares when using the USA gateway will be prevented as they demand that you are a USA resident.

[iRate]

If it's any consolation, there's varied pricing even within the US. Residents of certain states may get preferential pricing over residents from other states. Good example, there's often really great rates for Florida residents. Unfortunately I only have a Tennessee ID.

 

Agreed, however it's a case of buyer beware and I'm know for a fact that many Aussies are unaware of just how much more they are paying than other passengers on the same ship.

 

And if anything as our Australian dollar has been so high over last year or so, if anything we should be paying less, not more.

 

And this is another part f the same - although the Aussie dollar is so strong - if you compare the taxes and gratuities they should be considerably lower when booked in Australian dollars - but in the vast majority of cases they make us pay in Aussie dollars what Americans pay in USD. Haven't investigated this angle yet but my hunch is that it is illegal to inflate government taxes and charges.

 

To me, at least with regard the current pricing policies for Australians this represents nothing more than price gorging.

 

Why should we pay more, in some cases thousands more, for exactly the same product and service?

[iRate]

The restrictive redirection of Australian customers to AU marketing sites across a range of consumer products was reported in the Financial review earlier this year - taken up a little at the time in the wider media but largely glossed over - Radio National did give it a run. It will be interesting to see if any enquiry promised by the Australian Government extends to the Cruise Industry.

 

This thread is the start of that push to have the cruise industry investigated - the price gorging currently happening here in Australia - as per the recent enquiry into price gorging by software producers/resellers that you alluded to.

 

Again once people know what is happening the cruises lines will have a lot of very unhappy campers. And they will have stop the rip off.

[iRate]

What gets up my nose is not only do our US friends get a better price than us here in Oz but they also get big OBCs as well. One on line agency that I have used a few times has got, for example, a Princess sale at the moment where, if you are an American citizen, you can get an OBC of around $500 dollars or more but anyone else that books gets nothing.

 

Cannot understand this... our money is as good (or better) than theirs and I recall reading somewhere that US citizens bookings only represented about 50%- 60% of a cruise lines business which means that non US bookings are subsidising the rest.....why??????

 

Exactly again!!!

 

And this can also apply to cruises out of Australian ports with a majority of Australian passengers onboard - yet people from overseas not only get much steeper discounts but also huge OBCs. It's wrong and I intend to stop it!

[iRate]

The problem is in being prevented from dealing with who you like. Using the above example, if it was an American agency offering the deal you assume the Perth people had, why should I be prevented from using them?

Aquarians

 

I have a hunch the free trade agreement might be of help here - as it is meant to increase freedom of trade and stop restrictive practices.

 

Meaning if you are are a business in the USA or Australia the free trade agreement should mean you have access to both markets. The cruise lines are actually throwing up obstacles to free trade.

 

Just need a expert on international law - anyone know one? A free one?! LOL.

[iRate]

What I get upset about is that the terms and conditions in Aus are different to our US friends and that is the main reason I use a US agent.

Try to cancel a cruise in Aus??? You will lose some or all of your deposit.

 

I can see that the prices have started to come down here but when they have the same terms and conditions is when I may start to use an Aussie TA again.

 

BINGO - another of their dirty little secrets.

 

They do this because they figure us Aussies won't be smart enough to work out that our booking conditions and cancellation penalties are vastly more restrictive. This means that when we book a cruise we have to make final payment months in advance of residents from USA. Also in most cases our deposits are DOUBLE. Yes double.

 

Our cancellation penalties are also much more restrictive. Meaning that we are locked into a cruise many months earlier. Again this favours US residents because final payment and and cancelation penalties are many months later. Those of you who watch the big USA cruise discount websites will know that most of the steepest discounts are offered just after 80 days prior.

 

Australians have no recourse to ask for price reductions - Americans are always getting price reductions/ additional OBC or similar compensation.

 

Not us Aussies.

[NSWP]

You guys who think we are being ripped off can show your displeasure by removing your auto tips and telling the cruise line, the Captain, the Purser, the Maitre'D, the Hotel Manager, why !!! Think about it !! The revolution !!!

[iRate]

I have posted this before

 

I am an American lawyer. Let me start off by saying that I want to pay as little for the cruise as possible. That being said its going to rare when you actually pay the least amount for the cruise for a number of reason(where you book and when you book are two of them). As most people know on a airline for instance there may be as many fares as passengers..and some of that may be based on where people reside..perfectly legally.

 

The laws about anti-trust are similar and the agency rules are similar among the various countries. Consumer protection laws and rules concerning which TA you can use are not. These are mostly specifically statutory(local laws) and how they apply varies greatly. The example concerning Coke just does not apply here. The cruise line sell through travel agents or directly. The cruise line can tell its agents what price they can sell and its not an anti-trust issue at all because its isn't the TA that is selling the TA's product. They are making a booking for the cruise line and the cruise line is paying them a commission. Coke sells the syrup to the local bottling company. The bottling company pays a set fee for the syrup and then can sell for any price it wants the final product not so the TA. The risk of loss is with the bottling company. The antitrust issue for the bottling companies which are independent entities deals with their right to compete with other independent bottling companies. The restriction on territories may violate that anti-trust rule.

Many countries and states have rules concerning the registration or licensing of TA's. I believe at least one of the Australian states/territories has such a registration requirement. In most cases while this also protects the TA the primary purpose(traditionally) has been to protect the local consumer from fly by night and unscrupulous TA's. Many US states require licensing or registration to sell to citizens of those individual states-there is no national licensing law here and some states have no such requirement.(California has and you will see on most national US TA sites a registration number-I believe Florida does too). Every US state has a requirement that if the cruise line or TA sell insurance(cruise insurance for instance) that the insurance company be licensed in that state and the cruise lines use a insurance company that is actually licensed in every state for all insurance they sell except for cancel for no reason insurance which they self insure-its technically not insurance but a waiver of the penalty for cancellation. In any case these all were at least in major part done to protect that state's citizens from loss...not to protect the TA although that may be a byproduct of such a law.

Yes I know that the cruise contract has a choice of law provision and place where the lawsuit must be brought but if the cruise contract is in violation of the local consumer protection law these contract terms which violate the local public policy-in the consumer protection laws will NOT be enforced. As An example lets say the local state has a law that requires that the TA be licensed and the cruise company sells to individuals in that state through TA's not so licensed. The State can and has sued the cruise companies to stop and they for the most part do. The Florida Attorney general has aggressively sued the cruise lines when he feels that they are violating consumer protections(as they did when the cruise lines retroactively tried to enforce fuel surcharges that had not been expressly reserved).

 

Most cruise lines(not all) don't allow US TA's to sell to cruiser who reside in Europe or other places and those prices to those residents tend to be higher precisely because of consumer protection laws. When the Iceland volcano exploded the European protection laws required that the people who bought a complete cruise including airfare through the cruise line had to be gotten to the cruise no matter what the cost and the damages for failure to do so where not limited to the cost of the cruise airfare and any additional cost to get there. US cruisers even with insurance were on their own and could only recover limited damages...not so the European consumer.

Its also still true that 90% of all bookings on cruise still come through some form of TA and the cruise lines rely upon them greatly. As many people know the cruise lines have been restricting TA's splitting the commission with the cruiser. Many have made it extremely little they can split with the cruiser. They can do this precisely because they can control their agent and its not an antitrust issue at all(as long as its an individual cruise line decision its ok if the Cruise lines agree among them to restrict it it would not be okay because that is an anti-trust issue an agreement between two independent entities to restrict payments to others would surely violate anti-trust laws but a TA(an agent) and a cruise line(the principal) is not two independent entities.).

 

Of course this is all legalese. The ACCC help line may believe there is a specific legal violation but that doesn't necessarily make that so. I assume like most departments that don't win every case. I assume if they believed that there was a specific violation they would have told them to stop a long time ago..

and finally even though the number of Australians cruising has increased, it still represents a small faction of those cruising(under 5%)...remember these cruise ships are mobile can be easily repositioned..

 

a couple of more points. The fact is that the seller here is the cruise line not the TA= they aren't resellers. They never have a risk of loss on the product and anti-trust just don't extend to that situation.

But that doesn't mean that some TA's don't have access to a lower rate without OBC. some TA get a group fare that they can add other people to even if not in a specific affinity group. You get these rates by having a good relation with the local sales manager of the cruise line or promising a certain number of cabins to be sold to get it. These are then authorized fares. Sometimes the cruise line will actually sell a net fare room(net payment to the cruiseline) to the TA...and then the risk of loss does pass to the ta but not all cruise lines do that=less and less everyday and the TA is free to charge whatever it wants to- and that would be anti-trust issue if the cruise line interfered.

Most cruise lines show the rate including port fees on their websites, its the TA's who tend to break them up differently.

 

Thanks for such a thoughtful and comprehensive response. I take on board what you have shared here. The insurance/consumer protections I understand and I realise that they are part of the problem, not the solution. But as you also point out - the cruise lines are in point of fact selling across boarders within our own country and under our own laws - (and protections) and hence that me negates their augment in this regard.

 

And regardless, even if we were to accept that such pricing polices were 100% the result of local consumer law/protections (which I don't), that simply does not justify, nor account for the massive price differential between countries - and indeed if that was the case I would have thought that cruises would need to be more expensive when purchased stateside, rather than outside.

 

Even if you take out the travel agency issue, there is still much that I feel cruise lines are being unfair about as seen by the responses already to this thread.

 

But again thank you for your considered response.

[Oz_Steve]

The sales assistant at Harvey Norman (or a car salesman for that matter) trying to sell me a telly or computer is also selling his experience and expertise. News flash travel agents are in the retail industry, they aren't really the equivalents of doctors, lawyers, accountants or even mechanics. It is service based and judging by the posts here the industry aren't reaching the service levels required to stop customers voting with their feet. Non refundable deposits is good work if you can get it I suppose.

[Pushka]

First a declaration - I am an Australian based TA.

 

To everyone who does not approve of non refundable deposits - I presume you are also offering free work or services in whatever professions you are/were in ?

 

Actually in our business we do refund deposits and dont invoke cancellation clauses unless the job we have contracted for is less than 2 weeks away. Our business is based on customer loyalty.

 

We too have signed and enforceable contracts but we feel that it is more important to retain good client relationships even when they um, do the 'dirty' on us.

[Oz_Steve]

Actually in our business we do refund deposits and dont invoke cancellation clauses unless the job we have contracted for is less than 2 weeks away. Our business is based on customer loyalty.

 

We too have signed and enforceable contracts but we feel that it is more important to retain good client relationships even when they um, do the 'dirty' on us.

 

Sounds like a sound business model. I am constantly surprised by the number of people who are 'in business' who do not understand 'business' or the business they are in.

Why can the cruise line keep the money after a certain date? Well they actually have provided a service, they have held the cabin for you and forgone the opportunity to sell it to someone else at the going rate. As most people realise as it gets closer to sailing the going rate usually goes down. They may or may not resell at a higher rate but that is the risk the customer should take, not them.

[resordanis]

Sounds like a sound business model. I am constantly surprised by the number of people who are 'in business' who do not understand 'business' or the business they are in.

Why can the cruise line keep the money after a certain date? Well they actually have provided a service, they have held the cabin for you and forgone the opportunity to sell it to someone else at the going rate. As most people realise as it gets closer to sailing the going rate usually goes down. They may or may not resell at a higher rate but that is the risk the customer should take, not them.

 

I think this is the reason that "shop front TA's" are a dying breed! They will be out of business in a few years, if they don't change!!!

[iRate]

From my experience as a small business owner in Australia, the price I display for a product or service MUST include ALL fees, charges and taxes.

 

So in Australia the price has to by Australian Law be all inclusive, there can be no hidden extras. This even extends to cafes restaurants and bar, the menu price must include any "extras" such as holiday surcharges.

 

BINGO. We have another winner.

 

This is the key to the illegal behaviour I alluded to in my opening post.

 

You are 100% correct. Any product or serviced advertised (or on an Australian website selling to Australians) must list the full, final price.

 

Component pricing is strictly illegal. There is actually a specific sub clause in the legislation that speaks to this very issue.

 

As you would know full well being a small business owner, ignorance of the law is no excuse. I'm sure the ACCC or local consumer protection authorities would be knocking on your door if you advertised an item or service for sale at $9.99 but when it was wrung up at the register you added taxes and service fees to take the final price up to $17+.

 

They would throw the book at you. Regardless of the size of your business.

 

Or imagine if it wasn't you who did this, but your competitor down the street.

 

It would wrong. It's unfair and it's illegal.

 

Yet here we have these huge multinational cruise lines coming down to Australia and doing EXACLY the same thing through their 'Australian' websites.

 

What they are doing is advertising cruises with headline fares 'FROM' a certain price with a little '*' next to that price.

 

You then have to scroll many pages to bottom to see in extremely fine print 'Relevant fees and taxes are additional'.

 

I'll add the exact wording of the legislation here shortly but short of the long - this is strictly prohibited - as any additional charges, be they service fees or taxes, that are quantifiable at the time of the offer MUST be added to create one final price - NOT added later as separate components.

 

The mere fact that when you click through to the next page these taxes are quantified and added to the total price means that they should have been included in the headline price on the previous page.

 

ADDITIONALLY they have the nerve to use the term 'starting from' but these are a prices that don't actually exist because no one can get a cabin at that price.

 

Everyone has to pay the tax, it can't be avoided. Again totally and completely illegal conduct. As too with the gratuities they force Australian's to pay. When they force you to pay a service fee, that fee must be included in that headline price. (NB I realise that gratuities go to the very hard working crew members and I'm not saying for a moment that people should try not to pay them - it's just that in Australia the cruise lines often don't allow us to opt out - and hence why these 'service charges' should also be included in the 'FROM' price).

 

Speaking to the ACCC this is potentially a massive liability for the cruise lines because anyone who has booked from within Australia and been enticed by such headline fares might well be entitled to a refund. Hence this thread. If no one was able to purchase a fare at the advertised price - this is false and misleading conduct.

 

We need evidence, and people to lodge complaints for the ACCC to act. Apparently the tipping point is they can only take action if you have suffered a loss. And if you have booked a cruise and had to pay additional fees/charges/taxes that they failed to make clear - then you have suffered a loss, and are entitled to seek redress.

[iRate]

You guys who think we are being ripped off can show your displeasure by removing your auto tips and telling the cruise line, the Captain, the Purser, the Maitre'D, the Hotel Manager, why !!! Think about it !! The revolution !!!

 

It's actually got nothing to do with the tips.

 

The crew, all of them, work very long and hard to make our holidays afloat so very special.

 

I for one readily pay the recommended tips, and often more, simply because I believe in rewarding great service.

 

We are not complaining about gratuities at all here - your comments would be best addressed on another thread about such.

[iRate]

Yes Barry you are quite correct here.

 

When you go to most of the big cruise lines from within Australia - you will by automatically by default get a local 'mirror' site that will list prices in AUD. But the main site is actually located in the USA.

 

These are often called 'international gateway' pages (as with celebrity) or some similar term for other cruise lines. Often they are hidden.

 

For example on the celebrity website if you change from the Australian gateway to the USA gateway, hey presto you see what prices Celebrity are charging USA residents. Now as people have already said you need to ensure that taxes, port charges and fees are included to compare 'apples with apples'.

 

Any attempt to buy fares when using the USA gateway will be prevented as they demand that you are a USA resident.

 

EXAMPLES:

 

 

Celebrity Cruises - default page set to Australia. NB Prices shown will be in AUD. This screen shot is of the bottom right hand side of the page.

 

 

Celebrity Cruises - Gateway changed to United States. NB Now prices will be shown in USD. If you find differences in prices remember to remove taxes/fees from comparisons. Please do a screen capture of significant price differences. If you can't do a screen capture just take a photo of it!

 

 

RCCL Australian default page.

 

 

RCCL changed to United States - You will now be able to see what rates US residents are being offered in USD.

[GHDPeter]

to iRate,

 

I think you might be mistaken. I don't believe that any company advertising cruises in Australia are advertising non inclusive fares, if they were they would be subject to fines and you'd be watching them on the 6:30 pm current affairs programs.

 

The fares that are advertised in the "from" pricings are the quad share, one deck below water level, inside cabins. I know because I just booked one.

 

On my upcoming Sydney - Brisbane 2 night cruise on the Sun Princess there was a cabin advertised for $169. The fine print was that it was twin share and inside, and for past passengers only. As I travel solo, and I am a past passenger, I was able to get an inside cabin, single occupancy, deck 5 ( K class ) for $318 total.

 

For my upcoming Xmas cruise I have booked a Balcony G'tee on the Sun Princess, single occupancy, BE Class ( there are only 4 on the ship , and being a past passenger was quoted $4798. The same cabin is advertised as $2999 per person twin share.

 

But the prices that are headlined in advertisements and in brochures are always the lowest class, most shares, and lowest seasons. Thats why they are "from *" prices. The same applies to airlines and any other business that is subject to seasonal changes in business. If you can travel outside of peak season you will always get the cheapest price, you might not get the best weather though.