Norwegian Cruise Ship "Loses" Autistic Boy

[GirlWriter]

As an educator who works with children I really feel that his disability is irrelevant.

 

This is exactly what I have been thinking. To me, the issue is twofold: (1) a child "got out" without any of the staff noticing, and (2) the child stayed out without any of the staff noticing he wasn't there. I find that alarming.

 

We did a cruise in October with our 3YO -- what if he had gotten out? He definitely would not have found his way back to the vicinity of our room, and there is no telling what could have happened to him.

 

So, I'm with the parents. I want to know how it happened and what specifically they are doing to make sure it won't happen again. If the staff-to-child ratio is so "off" that a child can simply be gone and the staff not even know it, then they need to reduce the ratio.

[rvsullivan]

This is exactly what I have been thinking. To me, the issue is twofold: (1) a child "got out" without any of the staff noticing, and (2) the child stayed out without any of the staff noticing he wasn't there. I find that alarming.

 

We did a cruise in October with our 3YO -- what if he had gotten out? He definitely would not have found his way back to the vicinity of our room, and there is no telling what could have happened to him.

 

So, I'm with the parents. I want to know how it happened and what specifically they are doing to make sure it won't happen again. If the staff-to-child ratio is so "off" that a child can simply be gone and the staff not even know it, then they need to reduce the ratio.

 

We don't know how long he was gone. It is not a small group environment where the are a few kids and a care giver. This is group play, I don't think they stop and do a head count every 5 minutes. NCL said they fixed the problem and took care of the offending staff member. Until someone shows it to be an ongoing problem, I think it is a closed issue. What more should they do????:confused:

[GirlWriter]

This is group play, I don't think they stop and do a head count every 5 minutes.

 

Well, maybe they should, if they have unmanned entry and exit points -- which apparently they did, or the child would not have gotten out unnoticed.

[iheartbda]

Is it me, or have some parents become way to reliant on the ships personnel to take care of their children while on a "family" vacation?

It's you.

There's nothing wrong with sending children to the kids club for activities suited to their age that they will they will enjoy......not all like to spend time on a lounge chair reading. There are even some children who would spend their whole time in the kids club, if permitted.

[dwjoe]

Is it me, or have some parents become way to reliant on the ships personnel to take care of their children while on a "family" vacation?

I don't understand your post... are you insinuating that children don't even belong in the kids club?

 

NCL and other cruise lines offer children's activities and their first duty is to keep the children safe and not allow a child to walk off unnoticed. NCL has admitted they dropped the ball.

[iheartbda]

Well, maybe they should, if they have unmanned entry and exit points -- which apparently they did, or the child would not have gotten out unnoticed.

Unless there is some door, for instance a crew only door that the child in question somehow managed to find, they do not have any unmanned entry and exit points.

 

Post #56

http://cruiseforums.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=36926109#

[GirlWriter]

Unless there is some door, for instance a crew only door that the child in question somehow managed to find, they do not have any unmanned entry and exit points.

 

Post #56

http://cruiseforums.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=36926109#

 

I don't think that can be correct. They had to have had at least one unmanned exit point ... either that, or the child was permitted to walk out through a manned entry point while a crew member watched. Alarming either way.

 

Also, I can tell you from personal experience that they do not man the entry the entire time. They do during heavy check-in/check-out times, but the rest of the time, no. I presume that is because their staff-to-child ratio is not large enough to permit a dedicated person on the door.

[Beaver1975]

It's you.

There's nothing wrong with sending children to the kids club for activities suited to their age that they will they will enjoy......not all like to spend time on a lounge chair reading. There are even some children

who would spend their whole time in the kids club, if permitted.

 

Thank you for your candor, albeit in its insulting form.

 

I never said there was anything wrong with sending a child to the kids club.

 

My question pertained to ships personnel in general. Have you not noticed the number of "packs" of children roaming the ship unsupervised at all hours? I hav also seen parents who seem to be having a great time and imbibing to excess telling their children to play somewhere else. That is the kinds if things I was referring to. Sorry, if that insulted your sensibilities. But, this is a public forum and people are allowed their opinions.

[dwjoe]

My question pertained to ships personnel in general. Have you not noticed the number of "packs" of children roaming the ship unsupervised at all hours? I hav also seen parents who seem to be having a great time and imbibing to excess telling their children to play somewhere else. That is the kinds if things I was referring to. Sorry, if that insulted your sensibilities. But, this is a public forum and people are allowed their opinions.

What do your general grievances against children have to do with anything? This thread is about a special needs child who slipped out unnoticed from the kids club.

[Beaver1975]

What do your general grievances against children have to do with anything? This thread is about a special needs child who slipped out unnoticed from the kids club.

 

Did you go after all if the other people that did not stay on what you perceive to be only that should be discussed in his thread?

[wwb]

My kids have been on many cruises with us and have always loved to participate in the KIDS Club. I should say that the "packs" that people describe could be "packs," but could also be group activities such as scavenger hunts, trips to the movies, pizza parties, etc.

wwb

[Beaver1975]

My kids have been on many cruises with us and have always loved to participate in the KIDS Club. I should say that the "packs" that people describe could be "packs," but could also be group activities such as scavenger hunts, trips to the movies, pizza parties, etc.

wwb

 

No, I was talking about unsupervised "packs" doing thing like sitting on promenade rails and general horsing around.

 

But, oh ya we are not supposed to talk about anything other than special needs children sneaking out of kids camp.

[iheartbda]

Thank you for your candor, albeit in its insulting form.

 

I never said there was anything wrong with sending a child to the kids club.

 

My question pertained to ships personnel in general. Have you not noticed the number of "packs" of children roaming the ship unsupervised at all hours? I hav also seen parents who seem to be having a great time and imbibing to excess telling their children to play somewhere else. That is the kinds if things I was referring to. Sorry, if that insulted your sensibilities. But, this is a public forum and people are allowed their opinions.

Insulting?:confused:

Your question sure seemed like you were putting down parents for sending their children to the kids clubs by your use of parentheses to emphasize the family in family vacation. It made it look like they should be joined at the hip at all times.

 

Your original question did not indicate anything like the above post.

 

If you took it as an insult, so be it. That was not the intent.

[dwjoe]

Did you go after all if the other people that did not stay on what you perceive to be only that should be discussed in his thread?

Well, there was this one guy who mentioned Fox News... :D

[davesgirl51]

Talk about a misleading headline. What site am I at, Fox News?

 

The article even says "autistic children tend to wander", and when this boy wandered back to their cabin the steward kept an eye on him while he contacted his superior. What more can the parents ask?

 

Two months later, the parents are still looking for answers. lolwut? What more do they want? Come on, crap happens, your autistic child wandered away from a busy teen club. Sorry, I know he's special and all that, but he isn't the center of the universe to the crew. All eyes aren't on him all the time. He was found safe and sound by a crewmember who acted accordingly. What more do they want?

 

 

Wait. I bet I know what they want. They want a free cruise.

 

No, not Fox News ... CBS, ABC, NBC, MSNBC maybe.:rolleyes:

Otherwise, I agree. :)

[dwjoe]

No, not Fox News ... CBS, ABC, NBC, MSNBC maybe.:rolleyes:

Yep, that's what I was referring to. :D

 

The political scales are now balanced so can we please get back to arguing over the news article. ;)

[ksimpso3]

Excellent post!

It was a mistake, and a learning experience....thankfully no one was hurt. Learn and move on.

 

I would like to know what the parents think is fair, as the parent post on page one says the NCL offer was a "slap in the face".

I agree with you 100%. When my younger daughter was 7 (in 2nd grade) the school "lost" her note letting my grandmother pick her up after school. It was the first day of school and the staff knew my grandmother as she had picked her up several times per week for the previous 2 years, but they refused to let her leave without a note. They told my grandmother that there "might be custodial issues" that they weren't aware of, and she should just "drive to the house and get her off the bus". No phone call to me or my husband! My grandmother tried to take the back road to our house, but got lost and when she went back to main road it was closed due to a fire, so she couldn't get to her. Long story short, I get a call from my 7 year old that she's home alone. I freaked, and got home quickly. The school gave me no good explanation....stated it could have been a "custodial issue" so they couldn't send her with grandma. My response was "she couldn't be abducted by grandma from your school, but it was okay for her to be abducted from her driveway???" Made no sense! I was furious...but didn't post it on Facebook or the school's website, or anywhere else. It was a mistake, it happened. My daughter was fine. What more could have been done? NCL stated they investigated and corrective action was taken. What more does the OP want? Mistakes happen. They are learning experiences. Let's hope NCL learned, but enough already.

[MelissaFreed]

So many thoughts come to mind, but most I cannot say without having my CC membership revoked! With that being said, I can see both sides.

 

First, thank God this child was found safely!

 

The fact that this child is Autistic should not matter. NCL advertises that it can accommodate care for children with "some" special needs. I would assume that this information was disclosed, and NCL agreed to assume care of the child. The comment on here made to the effect that a non-Autistic 10 year old would be to blame, was clearly made by someone who does not have children, or who is lucky enough to have that perfect Stepford child. The Kids Club is a service that you pay for, whether it is included in the price or you pay extra for after hours care. You pay for the service of having your kids in a safe environment, therefore NCL would be responsible to hold up their end of the bargain. Funny how people will jump to criticize NCL for poor food quality or service that was paid for, but not when they drop the ball regarding the safety of children under their care. From what I read, the parents were not offered any explanation of substance as to how this happend, or what exactly is being done to rectify the problem. I think that much is owed to the parents. If this were one of my children, I would not have left that ship until someone was fired, thrown overboard, or I was able to take their head home as a trophy. SWAT themselves would have had to remove me. With that being said, I commend the parents for not being in prison this very moment. So help the person who offered me a bribe of a free cruise, or a refund, in return for my silence. They wouldn't be able to sit for a year. A clear explanation how it happened, and how this will be avoided in the future, would also be important for parents planning on using Kids Club services in the future. So, maybe the parents are being so selfish in their persistence.

 

Also, just want to take a moment about those complaining about all the "what ifs." Being a parent is all about what ifs. Contemplating what ifs is how you protect your children and ensure their safety. If this problem is forgotten and swept under the carpet, maybe next time we won't be contemplating what ifs. We could be praying for parents who are not as lucky as the ones we are discussing right now to have their child "found" safe.

 

In defense of NCL, of course they are not going to say anything more, at least not publicly. Its a pretty safe bet that the more they say, the deeper the hole they will dig. I sincerly hope that NCL is taking this seriously and their Kids Club will be more safe and secure for all children in the future. At least some good would then come from this.

[dijid]

The comment on here made to the effect that a non-Autistic 10 year old would be to blame, was clearly made by someone who does not have children, or who is lucky enough to have that perfect Stepford child.

 

That was me! I have kids, and as hard as we tried, we were never able to duplicate the success with the first Stepford child. I even got one with above average curiosity and below average impulse control. I'm sure the vice-principal at his school would be happy to confirm that for you ;)

 

I do stand by what I said. People on these boards are quick to bash the parents. If I had come on here when my son was almost 11 and posted about how he wandered off from the Kids Club unnoticed, within 3 minutes I would have had a dozen replies about how he hadn't just "wandered off" - that he'd actually snuck out and done something he had known wasn't right. I'm sure a few posters would have been kind enough to point out how my horrible parenting skills had resulted in a child unable to follow the rules. I would have blamed my son and been cursing that I ever got rid of that toddler leash we had to use when he was younger because he would have been tethered to me the rest of the cruise. :D People would not have reacted the same as they are with this scenario.

[MelissaFreed]

That was me! I have kids, and as hard as we tried, we were never able to duplicate the success with the first Stepford child. I even got one with above average curiosity and below average impulse control. I'm sure the vice-principal at his school would be happy to confirm that for you ;)

 

I do stand by what I said. People on these boards are quick to bash the parents. If I had come on here when my son was almost 11 and posted about how he wandered off from the Kids Club unnoticed, within 3 minutes I would have had a dozen replies about how he hadn't just "wandered off" - that he'd actually snuck out and done something he had known wasn't right. I'm sure a few posters would have been kind enough to point out how my horrible parenting skills had resulted in a child unable to follow the rules. I would have blamed my son and been cursing that I ever got rid of that toddler leash we had to use when he was younger because he would have been tethered to me the rest of the cruise. :D People would not have reacted the same as they are with this scenario.

 

I'm not disagreeing that children at the age of 10 don't know the difference between right and wrong. My point is that regardless, their safety is the responsibility of adults. That's why they are not allowed to hold jobs, drive cars, and live alone. They are not capable of being responsible for their own safety at the age of 10. If your child was injured at school while running with scissors, would you accept a teachers explanation of "Sure, I knew he was running with scissors but its not my fault since he knew better."

[MelissaFreed]

That was me! I have kids, and as hard as we tried, we were never able to duplicate the success with the first Stepford child. I even got one with above average curiosity and below average impulse control. I'm sure the vice-principal at his school would be happy to confirm that for you ;)

 

I do stand by what I said. People on these boards are quick to bash the parents. If I had come on here when my son was almost 11 and posted about how he wandered off from the Kids Club unnoticed, within 3 minutes I would have had a dozen replies about how he hadn't just "wandered off" - that he'd actually snuck out and done something he had known wasn't right. I'm sure a few posters would have been kind enough to point out how my horrible parenting skills had resulted in a child unable to follow the rules. I would have blamed my son and been cursing that I ever got rid of that toddler leash we had to use when he was younger because he would have been tethered to me the rest of the cruise. :D People would not have reacted the same as they are with this scenario.

 

However, I do agree that a lot of posters are quick to blame the parents. I think some are such NCL cheerleaders that they would rather cut off their own limbs than say a critical word about the line. I love NCL as much as anyone, but not enough to give them a pass when they are wrong.

 

FYI...I'm jealous you got at least one Stepford child to try and clone. I never came close with either of my kids, but not for lack of trying :rolleyes:

[Markanddonna]

As an educator and one who has lots of experience with autistic kids, I am really surprised that a parent of an autistic child would feel confident in leaving the child in an environment like this one. I also wonder how much background was revealed about this child to the staff when children with these concerns have IEPs and meetings galore with teams of trained staff members who can anticipate problems such as wondering or running away. I would doubt that much more than a sentence or two was given to NCL.

 

I wonder if this child is in a regular classroom without an aide at his home school. If he is very high functioning, the child has some responsibility too. If he has an aide or is in a more specialized environment, it would be a huge error to put him into a new and confusing place like a kids' club. I'm assuming this child is like my most high functioning Aspbergers' child and maybe was uncomfortable, felt frightened and alone and just focused on getting out. Many of my Asp kids were geniuses who could have figured out how to do so in the most creative way. So, it was a very unfortunate situation with unrealistic expectations placed on NCL that they either accepted or didn't know what they were in for.

 

My conclusion is that NCL while responsible, may not have had the whole story on this child. I can see lawsuits brewing here and that NCL should magically have trained teachers at their disposal. I'm not sure that any lesson was really learned here. Special education is very expensive and a properly equipped kids' center that could handle any special needs child would be unthinkable. How will NCL handle a situation like this in the future?

[punkincc]

Have you read this string? The family has stated it was discussed with NCL both before the cruise and each time they arrived at the Kids Club and they were assured that it would present no difficulty for the staff. They gave no self sign out privileges to the child. ANY child leaving this secure environment ALONE should have been signed out by staff. Even those leaving with parents must be signed out to insure they are leaving with the proper persons.

 

I see no reason to place blame on the parents for this decision. They know their son and his comfort level better than we do. He was being left for a brief 2 hour period, not the entire day. As far as we know, he had attended the club at various times during the week with no incident and no complaints from staff. What we do know is that he was able to leave this "secure" area without being signed out or even missed by staff.

 

We also know that the sign out exit door was left unattended by staff for several minutes at a time as reported by another kids club parent on the same cruise ( see Family Cruises board ).

 

It seems pretty obvious that he simply walked out after staff failed to follow what I'm sure were basic security procedures set up by NCL.

 

This really has nothing to do with the fact that the child was autistic. Any child could have walked through the door on impulse.

[dijid]

I'm not disagreeing that children at the age of 10 don't know the difference between right and wrong. My point is that regardless, their safety is the responsibility of adults. That's why they are not allowed to hold jobs, drive cars, and live alone. They are not capable of being responsible for their own safety at the age of 10. If your child was injured at school while running with scissors, would you accept a teachers explanation of "Sure, I knew he was running with scissors but its not my fault since he knew better."

 

Actually, I would be expected to accept that answer. The idea of personal responsibility is much different outside the US.

[Markanddonna]

I took the time to read all the posts in both this posting and the family cruise posting. I really can see all the points but wonder about a few things:

 

- We won't ever know NCL's side of the story because of confidentiality rules. We don't know how accurately this child's needs were presented to NCL. I recall that my VERY FIRST day of teaching started with a child attempting to bolt out the door. I restrained him and the parents sheepishly admitted that he tried to do that every year for the first few days. Did they tell me that BEFORE this incident? No. Many folks minimize their child's problems in order for them to be accepted into schools, programs, etc. BTW- laws today would prevent me from restraining him (all I did is hold a six year old firmly by the arms and shoulders).

 

-Another thought is that I wonder if any child is every refused? What about kids who are violent, hurt themselves and others, etc? Are cruiselines expected to accept these children? I remember an after school child care center that had to keep a very violent, oppositional defiant disorder child because daddy was a lawyer and threatened to sue them. Please don't imply that I am am saying the child from this story was violent. I'm just bringing up a logical question.

 

-This topic reminds me of a posting on HAL a while back from a wheelchair bound woman who was very upset that she wasn't given special help (actually she avoided the muster drill and used her disability as an excuse for showing up). It brought up the idea that maybe some situations are way too demanding of the cruiseline's abilities to handle them well and that sometimes the other passengers could be put in danger if the demands of the very needy are met. Can you imagine a lifeboat rescue if 20% of your passengers are using walkers, in wheelchairs, etc?

 

- It is too bad when a cruiseline gets overwhelmed and slammed during holidays providing a usually well run service for children. On my last cruise, there were less than 10 children (TA sailing) and the children's areas were empty/closed. I would never expect their crew to have the capacity of servicing a special needs child, esp. during these busy times.

 

- I have to agree that I would be upset as the parents if this happened to my child. So many things to consider and learn from. It seems this young man knew what was best for him: not being in a crowded care center and used his wits to make it happen.