Internationally Adopted refused boarding?

[Surrealistic]

While so sad for the family, it is clear they didn't have the right documentation. Their travel agent should have informed them of what documents were required.

[Herbaltees]

The parents had the child's passport and proof that the child had entered the US legally and was legally adopted. That is all that should be required. Many people on this thread think that only US citizens are allowed to cruise on Carnival which is nonsense. If they would have taken the cruise they would not have been denied re-entry into the US so Carnival had no right to turn them away. The Carnival person screwed up and the corporation should take responsibility and make it right for this family. :mad:

 

I don't think that's the case. No one said that.

 

However for arguments sake, if an Ethiopian person in the US were sailing aboard Carnival wouldn't they have to show proof of legal entry into the US and a Visa to visit the other countries?

 

I really believe the parents complicated matters with the Ethiopian passport. They believed the Carnival agent would know/understand the law about the entry Visa making the child a citizen and that the BC would be all that was required. I don't think the agent reacted unreasonably.

[42CruiseCrazy]

While so sad for the family, it is clear they didn't have the right documentation. Their travel agent should have informed them of what documents were required.

 

It is not clear to me! Please tell me what they needed to have. Why was the passport, US entry visa and US birth certificate naming the adoptive parents not enough?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

[SmogMonster]

Several posters have said the the child automatically becomes a US citizen upon entry to the US. This is not necessarily true. Having adopted two children, i can tell you that automatic citizenship only occurs if the child's visa is an IR3 Visa. If it's an IR4 visa, the child must be readopted in the home state of the adoptive family. Only after that, will the child be granted US Citizenship and receive a Certificate of US Citenship and BC.

 

An IR4 Visa is given to a child when the child:

is coming to the United States to be adopted.

was adopted abroad by only one parent (if married).

was not seen by the parent(s) prior to or during the adoption.

 

To the OP, the best way to avoid all this is to get your adopted child a US passport. Our guatemalan daughter got hers when she was 6 and has cruised many times since then. ( she is now 10) We have never had any problem.

[Starlight Durban Cruising]

If they are not yet legal US citizens it may have been something along the lines of the countries where they were going requiring travel visas for citizens from their country of origin. There are relatively few countries that a US citizen will need a visa to visit; nationals from many, many other countries aren't so fortunate.

So TRUE. AND it just confirms all statements made (by the US government) when us foreigners become US citizens. They clearly say "go get a US passport now - it will make travel so much easier."

 

...However for arguments sake, if an Ethiopian person in the US were sailing aboard Carnival wouldn't they have to show proof of legal entry into the US and a Visa to visit the other countries?

 

I really believe the parents complicated matters with the Ethiopian passport. They believed the Carnival agent would know/understand the law about the entry Visa making the child a citizen and that the BC would be all that was required. I don't think the agent reacted unreasonably.

I agree that the parents may have complicated matters, and I think that the Rep may have been confused not only about re-entry into the USA, but also about the "entry" of this child into a foreign country (while on the cruise) with documentation indicating "potential Ethiopian citizen". If the Rep was confused, imagine how easy it would be for a government official in one of the cruise destinations to get confused even more when they see what appears to be Ethiopian citizen paperwork and NO visa to visit their country.

 

There is also reference to the parents having the Green Card (at home??) and being able to fax/overnight it to the port. That sounds odd, because when one becomes a US citizen, then USCIS takes your green card (GC) with one hand, and gives you your Cert. of Citizenship with the other hand. They DO NOT give the GC back to you.

 

In Conclusion: SOMETIMES, too much documentation is not necessarily a better thing.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Starlight Durban Cruising
Addit Info

[Raleigh Traveler]

Wow, what a train wreck, the thread more than the event. I love all the posters that feel like the cruise lines never make mistakes and that the cruiser is always at fault; didn’t do enough research (in addition to what the line provides), are liars and caused their own problem.

First off the cell phone is a non-issue. It provided back-up data that was not required. Sorry but if your “professional” staff is confused by extra documents they need to find different work.

The only relevant question is what does Carnival state is required and did the family provide that documentation. Assuming the family is not outright lying, either the cruise line was not accurate in what they post or they did not abide by those statements. Others have already backed up that Carnival states that the embossed US Birth Certificate is all that is required and countered the comments that an adoptive child could not possibly have that document. When I enter into a contract with a company to the tune of thousands of dollars I have a real and legitimate expectation that they will provide accurate information and that they will abide by what they state. Period, full stop!

Carnival needs to either provide clear feedback as to why the offered document was inadequate and explain how that differs from their statements or admit that they screwed up and make it right.

[rdler]

Smog Monster was entirely correct about the distinction between a child arriving on an IR-3 versus an IR-4 Visa. I did not know that it was possible anymore to adopt a child without having met it, etc. I stand corrected.

 

In any event, the Facebook poster said they had a Certificate of Citizenship. I believe that is one of the acceptable documents to Carnival, as is the original birth certificate issued by the state.

 

I fully agree with Raleigh.

[brooklynfc]

It seems things are split on the actual requirements, but I'm hearing more that a passport would ultimately be the main fix?

 

I do hope that Carnival might find a compromise with this family. As it seems both parties were confused about documentation. But there are many unanswered details in the story to really bring down any judgement for either side. (Ex: I would like to know if a customs agent was present).

 

However, I think I've found my answer. Passport.

[Raleigh Traveler]

Passport have been mentioned an ultimate fix, I see it more of an ultimate insurance. A family pays thousands to cruise and if they follow the advice here they will also pay hundreds for travel insurance and then hundreds more for "entrance" insurance (passports).

The ultimate fix is for the cruise lines to be accurate in what they state and then to abide by those statements. It's really pretty simple.

[CruisinCarps]

Uow can the US issue a birth certificate for someone born outside the US? I can't even get a reissue unless I go back to my town of birth.

 

1) Like someone else mentioned- our kids were born overseas, at a U.S. base hospital. We were issued certificates that read something like "Consular Report of Birth Abroad". It looks different than 'normal' birth certificates. We decided to get the kids passports, just in case this ever caused confusion although should be perfectly acceptable. Technically, we could go on the ship using all of our birth certificates for our particular upcoming cruise and another one we've taken.

 

2) My husband was re-issued a birth certificate without having to travel to his birth state. I don't remember all of the details, but I know we/he didn't travel back to that state to get it.

 

I am interested to see what Carnival has to say about this and what ultimately happens as a result. Someone else brought up a good question- did it have anything to do with what ports they might be visiting?

[CruisinCarps]

** Never mind- I missed it the first time in their blog- says they were going on a closed-loop cruise to the Bahamas. The U.S. birth certificate *should have* sufficed, according to Carnival's website.

[Herbaltees]

Wow, what a train wreck, the thread more than the event. I love all the posters that feel like the cruise lines never make mistakes and that the cruiser is always at fault; didn’t do enough research (in addition to what the line provides), are liars and caused their own problem.

First off the cell phone is a non-issue. It provided back-up data that was not required. Sorry but if your “professional” staff is confused by extra documents they need to find different work.

The only relevant question is what does Carnival state is required and did the family provide that documentation. Assuming the family is not outright lying, either the cruise line was not accurate in what they post or they did not abide by those statements. Others have already backed up that Carnival states that the embossed US Birth Certificate is all that is required and countered the comments that an adoptive child could not possibly have that document. When I enter into a contract with a company to the tune of thousands of dollars I have a real and legitimate expectation that they will provide accurate information and that they will abide by what they state. Period, full stop!

Carnival needs to either provide clear feedback as to why the offered document was inadequate and explain how that differs from their statements or admit that they screwed up and make it right.

 

I think they presented the Birth certificate AND the child's Ethiopian Passport which raised a flag to the clerk. I think it created more questions than needed. When the family couldn't present the items Carnival wanted, they were denied boarding and began with images on their cell phone it was a wrap.

 

If you read the fine print on your cruise contract it states that Carnival reserves the right to deny boarding etc.

 

I stand by my original stmt to the OP, if you want to save your friends and family lots of drama have them apply for a US passport or Passport card. Then the issue of being able to travel is a non issue.

[CruisinCarps]

Passport have been mentioned an ultimate fix, I see it more of an ultimate insurance. A family pays thousands to cruise and if they follow the advice here they will also pay hundreds for travel insurance and then hundreds more for "entrance" insurance (passports).

The ultimate fix is for the cruise lines to be accurate in what they state and then to abide by those statements. It's really pretty simple.

__

I agree whole-heartedly with these statements! This is what the blog-writer states that they brought: "

 

• An original, embossed birth certificate issued by North Carolina Vital Records, showing both my wife’s name and mine with our birthplaces
  

THAT should have been 'case closed', on to your ship to enjoy your cruise. Here's what the family in question wrote, they presented the B.C. first and THEN a Carnival employee asked for more 'back up' documents. Why?! It doesn't matter if the child didn't outright 'appear' to be their birth children, etc...at that point, with the birth certificate with the names of the adoptive parents on the B.C., and both of those parents cruising, there shouldn't have been a problem, a slight delay, but they should have been allowed to board. Yes, it is *recommended* everyone gets a passport, to make things smoother, quicker, and if you should need to fly back to the U.S. while on your cruise, not having a passport could be a problem, BUT they should have been allowed to board.

 

 

 

And it doesn't matter what the family showed them after this, the point being that, according to the family and what they reported, Carnival isn't backing up its own website stating that particular documentation (birth certificate) is all that is needed to go on a closed-loop cruise with them!! OR Customs needs to update Carnival if there has been a change in policy. Again, if we have been provided all of the info on this case, then the family is not at fault...and need to be reimbursed their money, etc.

 

 

This will make anyone question now, regardless of their situation, if an official U.S. birth certificate really will suffice. Yes, getting a passport *helps*, but being that the family already HAD correct documentation, now who is to say a passport won't be questioned now? What's the difference? (Not what is the difference between a passport and birth certificate, what is the difference on questioning one completely viable document vs another.)

[42CruiseCrazy]

I don't think that's the case. No one said that.

 

However for arguments sake, if an Ethiopian person in the US were sailing aboard Carnival wouldn't they have to show proof of legal entry into the US and a Visa to visit the other countries?

 

I really believe the parents complicated matters with the Ethiopian passport. They believed the Carnival agent would know/understand the law about the entry Visa making the child a citizen and that the BC would be all that was required. I don't think the agent reacted unreasonably.

 

The Carnival agent most certainly acted unreasonably because the Carnival website states that a birth certificate is required and the parents had it and other documentation as well. The passport should not have complicated matters but rather make it easier to board the ship. Unless an enty visa is required for Ethiopians to enter the Bahamas (and I highly doubt it) there was no reason whatsoever for this Carnival agent to ruin this family's holiday. :mad: ANY valid passport should be accepted to board a cruise ship. Not everybody has a US passport.

[Herbaltees]

The Carnival agent most certainly acted unreasonably because the Carnival website states that a birth certificate is required and the parents had it and other documentation as well. The passport should not have complicated matters but rather make it easier to board the ship. Unless an enty visa is required for Ethiopians to enter the Bahamas (and I highly doubt it) there was no reason whatsoever for this Carnival agent to ruin this family's holiday. :mad: ANY valid passport should be accepted to board a cruise ship. Not everybody has a US passport.

 

A visa is required for all people except citizens of US, Canada, and Latin American Countries.

 

http://www.bahamas.com/entry-requirements

 

Is it possible that the birth certificate that was issued by NC, is not WHTI compliant? That may be some of the confusion.

[RDC1]

The question is did the child's passport have an I-551 stamp. If it did then they had sufficient documentation to show permanent residency. If it did not then they did not have documentation for reentry.The could show the original visa but if the passport did not have the I-551 then all they would have had was a mishmash of paperwork insufficient for boarding

 

A child who has lawful permanent residence (LPR status) will have a permanent resident card (green card). Another way to show LPR status is the I-551 stamp in the child''s passport. This stamp shows the child has enter the United States on an immigrant visa and/or has been admitted as a lawful permanent resident.

 

Another example is what they would need to submit for a US passport:

You will need the following when the child applies for a passport:

 

Proof of the child''s relationship to the American citizen parent. For the biological child of the American citizen this will be a certified copy of the foreign birth certificate (and translation if not in English). For an adopted child, it is a certified copy of the final adoption decree (and translation if not in English);

 

The child''s foreign passport showing the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services in the Department of Homeland Security (USCIS) I-551 stamp in the passport, or the child''s permanent resident card (green card);

 

Proof of identity of the American citizen parent(s)

 

Now this deals with the government requirements as written in the Child Citizenship act of 2000. The cruise lines requirements could be more restrictive because those guidelines are not written for every possible situation and are clearly not written with international adoptions in mind.

Edited October 30, 2013 by RDC1

[Starlight Durban Cruising]

Unless an enty visa is required for Ethiopians to enter the Bahamas (and I highly doubt it) there was no reason whatsoever for this Carnival agent to ruin this family's holiday. :mad: ANY valid passport should be accepted to board a cruise ship. Not everybody has a US passport.

Yes Ethiopians do need visas for the Bahamas from info that is available online.

 

While I do agree with you about some degree of mess-up from the cruise-line, I shudder at your comment about "ANY valid passport should be accepted to board a cruise ship." That's the same as saying (in a different scenario): "ANY valid passport should be accepted to board a flight to come to the USA - even if the (foreign) person does not have a valid visa to come to the USA."

 

Not sure if you have flown from a foreign country back to the US recently - but the airlines diligently check visas BEFORE the flight leaves because they do not want to pay massive penalties to the US government for transporting a non-visa-approved person to the US.

[42CruiseCrazy]

Yes Ethiopians do need visas for the Bahamas from info that is available online.

 

While I do agree with you about some degree of mess-up from the cruise-line, I shudder at your comment about "ANY valid passport should be accepted to board a cruise ship." That's the same as saying (in a different scenario): "ANY valid passport should be accepted to board a flight to come to the USA - even if the (foreign) person does not have a valid visa to come to the USA."

 

Not sure if you have flown from a foreign country back to the US recently - but the airlines diligently check visas BEFORE the flight leaves because they do not want to pay massive penalties to the US government for transporting a non-visa-approved person to the US.

 

I do stand corrected on the Bahamas visa requirement and that may be the reason they could not cruise there. Yet this cruise starts and ends in the USA. If the passenger entered the US with that passport that should be good enough for Carnival.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

[Starlight Durban Cruising]

Yet this cruise starts and ends in the USA. If the passenger entered the US with that passport that should be good enough for Carnival.

I agree with you in principal, although an immigration official may not see it like that. And at the end of the day the cruise line probably plays it "safe".

Oh, one more thing that slipped my mind earlier:

 

- Once a person becomes a US citizen, and

- If they keep their foreign citizenship (i.e. they become a dual citizen), then,

- US law states that 'that person may NOT use the foreign passport to enter/exit the US in future'.

 

Therefore the person MUST use their US passport to enter/exit the US (which flies in the face of using the birth certificate for closed-loop cruises).

<SIGH, so many complex rules to follow>.

[DebJ14]

I do not understand why this was not escalated to a supervisor. Since the ship would have debarked passengers there should have been US Customs and Border patrol agents who could have been brought in to look at the documentation. We saw this happen in Galveston with questionable documentation. The officer looked at the documentation presented and said it was OK and that family was permitted to board. Something is just not right with this situation, so I looked up the NC protocol.

 

"North Carolina residents are encouraged to also adopt through a North Carolina court upon return to this state. The law does not distinguish between a domestic adoption and an inter-country adoption, so the basic procedure for legalizing an adoption must be followed. A certified copy or the original document of the foreign adoption decree will serve in lieu of the otherwise required consents to the adoption. Once a Decree of Adoption is issued, the adoptive parents will receive a Certificate of Identification from the North Carolina Vital Records Office. The child's birth record will be recorded in North Carolina, though indicating the country of birth as it actually was. This will eliminate the necessity for the parents to attempt to obtain a new birth record for the child from the country of origin - often an impossible task."

 

It looks like NC issues a Certificate of Identification, not a birth certificate, so it may not be a WHTI compliant document. It also state the country the child was born in as place of birth, so it would not prove citizenship.

Edited October 31, 2013 by DebJ14

[alreadypacked]

Several posters have said the the child automatically becomes a US citizen upon entry to the US. This is not necessarily true. Having adopted two children, i can tell you that automatic citizenship only occurs if the child's visa is an IR3 Visa. If it's an IR4 visa, the child must be readopted in the home state of the adoptive family. Only after that, will the child be granted US Citizenship and receive a Certificate of US Citenship and BC.

 

An IR4 Visa is given to a child when the child:

is coming to the United States to be adopted.

was adopted abroad by only one parent (if married).

was not seen by the parent(s) prior to or during the adoption.

 

To the OP, the best way to avoid all this is to get your adopted child a US passport. Our guatemalan daughter got hers when she was 6 and has cruised many times since then. ( she is now 10) We have never had any problem.

 

 

SmogMonster's info seems correct.

 

In the blog post, the parent states that they had the child's Ethiopian passport with entry visa, but they do not state whether his visa was an IR-3 or IR-4. As Smog pointed out, it makes a difference. See the following link:

 

http://www.uscis.gov/adoption/bringing-your-internationally-adopted-child-united-states/your-new-childs-immigrant-visa

 

The parent also states that the child has a green card (permanent resident card). This makes it sound as though the child came to the U.S. on an IR-4 visa NOT an IR-3 (IR-3's get a Certificate of Citizenship mailed to them after entering the U.S., NOT a green card). From the USCIS website:

 

http://www.uscis.gov/adoption/bringing-your-internationally-adopted-child-united-states/after-your-child-enters-united-states

 

All IR-3/IH-3, IR-4/IH-4 and IR-2 children are admitted as permanent resident aliens.

 

Depending on your child’s visa classification, USCIS will mail to your child either a permanent resident card, known as a green card, or a Certificate of Citizenship.

A child who immigrates to the United States as the adopted child of a U.S. citizen automatically becomes a U.S. citizen if the adoption is full and final before the child’s 18th birthday, if the child is "admitted" as a permanent resident before his or her 18th birthday, and if he or she "is residing" in the United States in the citizen parent’s legal and physical custody.

IR-3/IH-3 Children

 

 

• Generally, USCIS can readily verify whether a child admitted with an IR-3/IH-3 visa met the requirements for citizenship at the time of admission. For this reason, instead of issuing a green card, USCIS issues a Certificates of Citizenship for newly arrived IR-3/IH-3 children.
  

IR-4/IH-4 Children

 

 

• If your child was admitted to the United States on an IR-4/IH-4 visa, your child will receive a permanent resident card (green card)
  
• Once you have taken any final steps that you need to take to complete the adoption process in the United States, you should file a Form N-600. Refer to the form instructions for information about where to file
  
• USCIS will issue a Certificate of Citizenship if your child meets the requirements for automatic citizenship (if your child is over 14 years old the child will take the oath of allegiance before obtaining the certificate)
  

The fact that the child was re-adopted after entering the U.S. makes it sound as if the adoption wasn't fully completed abroad. Therefore, the child would have been issued an IR-4 visa, NOT the IR-3.

[Gailerina]

After reading everything, I really think too much documentation confused the agent. Not saying it is right, but we are human and errors happen.

 

I do this advocates how important it is to get a US passport for adopted children as soon as you are eligible to do so.

 

I do hope Carnival makes it right though.

[CI66774]

SmogMonster's info seems correct.

 

In the blog post, the parent states that they had the child's Ethiopian passport with entry visa, but they do not state whether his visa was an IR-3 or IR-4. As Smog pointed out, it makes a difference. See the following link:

 

http://www.uscis.gov/adoption/bringing-your-internationally-adopted-child-united-states/your-new-childs-immigrant-visa

 

The parent also states that the child has a green card (permanent resident card). This makes it sound as though the child came to the U.S. on an IR-4 visa NOT an IR-3 (IR-3's get a Certificate of Citizenship mailed to them after entering the U.S., NOT a green card). From the USCIS website:

 

http://www.uscis.gov/adoption/bringing-your-internationally-adopted-child-united-states/after-your-child-enters-united-states

 

All IR-3/IH-3, IR-4/IH-4 and IR-2 children are admitted as permanent resident aliens.

 

Depending on your child’s visa classification, USCIS will mail to your child either a permanent resident card, known as a green card, or a Certificate of Citizenship.

A child who immigrates to the United States as the adopted child of a U.S. citizen automatically becomes a U.S. citizen if the adoption is full and final before the child’s 18th birthday, if the child is "admitted" as a permanent resident before his or her 18th birthday, and if he or she "is residing" in the United States in the citizen parent’s legal and physical custody.

IR-3/IH-3 Children

 

 

• Generally, USCIS can readily verify whether a child admitted with an IR-3/IH-3 visa met the requirements for citizenship at the time of admission. For this reason, instead of issuing a green card, USCIS issues a Certificates of Citizenship for newly arrived IR-3/IH-3 children.
  

IR-4/IH-4 Children

 

 

• If your child was admitted to the United States on an IR-4/IH-4 visa, your child will receive a permanent resident card (green card)
  
• Once you have taken any final steps that you need to take to complete the adoption process in the United States, you should file a Form N-600. Refer to the form instructions for information about where to file
  
• USCIS will issue a Certificate of Citizenship if your child meets the requirements for automatic citizenship (if your child is over 14 years old the child will take the oath of allegiance before obtaining the certificate)
  

The fact that the child was re-adopted after entering the U.S. makes it sound as if the adoption wasn't fully completed abroad. Therefore, the child would have been issued an IR-4 visa, NOT the IR-3.

 

If the adoption wasn't complete, they wouldn't have been able to obtain a state birth certificate.

[CruisinCarps]

It looks like NC issues a Certificate of Identification, not a birth certificate, so it may not be a WHTI compliant document. It also state the country the child was born in as place of birth, so it would not prove citizenship.

Now see, I am wondering too, if that is where the confusion is (and what might have happened at the port). However, the family states they have "an original, embossed birth certificate issued by North Carolina..", etc. Unless they are confused as to what the paper actually is, if it states "birth certificate" on it, then that should have been acceptable.

 

If the adoption wasn't complete, they wouldn't have been able to obtain a state birth certificate.

Exactly.

 

All I know is that if I had an official birth certificate with me, that is all they should ask for- PERIOD- for a closed-loop cruise. If they asked for anything else, I would ask to see a supervisor and go on up until I spoke with Customs.

 

So: 1) Either we aren't being given all of the correct info by the family who had the issue- or they are still confused about the actual documents that have.

2) Carnival and/or Customs messed up. (But according to the family, they never spoke with anyone at Customs and only spoke with Carnival staff.)

 

People make mistakes. If Carnival goofed, they owe them their cruise money back (and honestly I think whatever costs incurred reaching port, hotels, kennel fees, etc.- that is what I would expect if I'd done absolutely everything correctly and someone else made a mistake costing me our trip!)

 

If Customs goofed, they need to find a way to refund this family if it isn't Carnival's fault.

 

I surely hope we hear what happens with this. This only occurred 5 days ago and someone (somewhere, on Facebook maybe?) said that Carnival has tried to reach them or there is some dialogue going on between the family and Carnival to find out what happened.

 

I guess we all have to stay tuned...

[irishnyc]

Wow, what a train wreck, the thread more than the event. I love all the posters that feel like the cruise lines never make mistakes and that the cruiser is always at fault; didn’t do enough research (in addition to what the line provides), are liars and caused their own problem.

First off the cell phone is a non-issue. It provided back-up data that was not required. Sorry but if your “professional” staff is confused by extra documents they need to find different work.

The only relevant question is what does Carnival state is required and did the family provide that documentation. Assuming the family is not outright lying, either the cruise line was not accurate in what they post or they did not abide by those statements. Others have already backed up that Carnival states that the embossed US Birth Certificate is all that is required and countered the comments that an adoptive child could not possibly have that document. When I enter into a contract with a company to the tune of thousands of dollars I have a real and legitimate expectation that they will provide accurate information and that they will abide by what they state. Period, full stop!

Carnival needs to either provide clear feedback as to why the offered document was inadequate and explain how that differs from their statements or admit that they screwed up and make it right.

 

But Carnival is not the final authority on US Customs and Border Protection's rules. Carnival warns right on their website, "Carnival assumes no responsibility for advising guests of proper travel documentation... All guests must check with their travel agent or the appropriate government authority to determine the necessary documents."