Internationally Adopted refused boarding?

[craezie]

This is just wrong, and Carnival needs to make it right. The couple had the required docs per the website, and either scenario they had a valid entry. If the agent wants to say they didn't have adequate proof of citizenship, then he should have treated the child as any other foreign national on their ship. The visa in the child's foreign passport proved that he was legal to go in and out of the U.S. However, the couple also had an original state-issued birth certificate, which should be enough to prove citizenship regardless of the passport issue. The birth cert also makes the green card pretty much invalid so it is irrelevant that they didn't have it with them. As for the people saying that the child should just get a US passport, that is true. But it takes a while to get everything back from USCIS if you have just recently completed your readoption. And more importantly, IT IS NOT REQUIRED for a cruise.

 

IMO the agent was probably on a power trip, and unjustifiably so.

[SmogMonster]

I think I may have discovered the problem...Many, including myself, have asked why carnival did not accept the adopted child's us birth certificate. I was looking at my adopted daughters US birth Certificate. What is actually is, is a United States Certificate of foreign Birth. It also says that the certificate is not proof of US Citizenship. When we readopted our daughter in the US, we were told that we also needed to get a Certificate of US Citizenship which we applied for and received. Only the Cert. of US Citizenship proves Citizenship.

 

In order to board a cruise ship, proof of citizenship must be presented. Based on the families own blog, they did not have this documentation. The US birth certificate they refer to is a cert of foreign birth. Since the green card was a digital copy, it was also not usable.

[Tithonus]

While I feel bad for the family not being able to board, am I confused in thinking that none of this is Carnival's fault but really Immigration and Customs? Aren't they the ones who decide what is needed (ie. paper, copy, cell phone, picture etc) and then look at the documents and decide ?

 

And between this thread and others, if indeed these parents had a copy on their cellphone and not the original or a paper copy, then why is everyone blaming Carnival and not the parents? Shouldn't the parents have had the real birth certificate, paper copy in their hands and not a picture on the cell phone???

 

Who holds the documents of what's required; CCL or the Gov agencies? Who informs there are docs required; CCl or the gov agencies. Who posts what's needed on special cruises on FB pages and turns out wrong: CCL employees or Giv agencies?

 

And then I have to look back at that word NONE.

[skittl1321]

IMHO:

Just another reason...GET THAT PASSPORT!

 

They had a passport for the child.

[Tithonus]

They had a passport for the child.

 

She missed that part.:rolleyes:

[Rochesterboatingdotcom]

Should have just used the green card and left everything else home. My Canadian wife who is a US resident has used that on every cruise we have taken with no questions asked.

[skittl1321]

Should have just used the green card and left everything else home. My Canadian wife who is a US resident has used that on every cruise we have taken with no questions asked.

 

This family probably got confused on the green card requirement, because their son is not a resident, he is a citizen. Based on the wording on the Carnival website, they thought the birth certificate they had for him, establishing them as his parents, was enough.

[SmogMonster]

They had a passport for the child.

 

They did not have a passport for the child. They had his current Ethiopian passport with entry Visa.

Also, on the original blog, the family claims that the Child Citizenship Act of 2000 allows an adopted child’s foreign passport with US entry stamp to be used as proof of US citizenship. I looked it up. This is not true. In fact the CCA of 2000 simply states that the foreign passport with stamps (among other documents) is required to OBTAIN proof of citizenship such as a Certificate of Citizenship or passport.

[CruisinCarps]

they had birth certificated for themselves. for the child they had his ethiopian passport and visa and a copy of the green card

No, they have an official U.S. birth certificate for the child, issued by the state of North Carolina.

 

I am thinking here is where someone (whether the TA, family, Customs, Carnival) was tripped up. Taken from this U.S. Customs/Border Patrol link:

 

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1279/~/children---traveling-with-adopted-child

 

"....

I adopted a child what documents are required for us to travel?

 

Adopted children: If the child is an adopted U.S. citizen, foreign-born naturalized U.S. citizen or is a LPR -

Traveling by Sea or Land: The child 15 years and younger must have a U.S. birth certificate, a consular report of birth abroad, a certification of birth, naturalization certificate or Certificate of Citizenship accompanied by the adoption decree with the adopting parents' names, a court order establishing custody, and/or a court order establishing guardianship.

 

*I* read it as basically you need only ONE of the :

 

1) U.S. birth certificate (which they said they had) As I understood it, they re-adopted the child, so they were given a U.S. birth certificate that had the adoptive parents' names on it, etc.

 

2) Consular report of birth abroad

 

3) Certification of birth

 

4) Naturalization certificate

 

5) Certificate of Citizenship accompanied by the adoption decree with the adopting parents' names, a court order establishing custody, and/or a court order establishing guardianship.

 

I saw in the comments on the blog, it seems the adoptive father is also wondering if it is the wording on that last bit wherein the confusion lies. As in, the confusion might be that someone might believe you had to have one of the above AND it had to be accompanied by the adoption decree, etc....

[oncruisecontrol]

They had a passport for the child.

They had a foreign passport (Ethiopian) for the child. I could be wrong, but I don't think that an Ethiopian passport alone will gain one entry into the United States.

[Herbaltees]

.... If the agent wants to say they didn't have adequate proof of citizenship, then he should have treated the child as any other foreign national on their ship. The visa in the child's foreign passport proved that he was legal to go in and out of the U.S.

 

They had a passport for the child.

 

Let's look at it both ways:

 

As a Foreign National

The child would not have been able to travel to the Bahamas because the Ethiopian passport didn't have a VISA for the child to visit the Bahamas.

 

As a US Citizen

The child could not travel out of the country because it seems the certificate the parents have is not evidence of US Citizenship and therefore is not a WHTI document which can be used for closed loop travel.

[Gailerina]

I truly believe a lot of confusion led to this happening and probably too much paperwork.

 

The only real question is who is actually to blame and what to do now?

 

They did not have a passport for the child. They had his current Ethiopian passport with entry Visa.

 

Also, on the original blog, the family claims that the Child Citizenship Act of 2000 allows an adopted child’s foreign passport with US entry stamp to be used as proof of US citizenship. I looked it up. This is not true. In fact the CCA of 2000 simply states that the foreign passport with stamps (among other documents) is required to OBTAIN proof of citizenship such as a Certificate of Citizenship or passport.

[cmitch9999]

A child who has lawful permanent residence (LPR status) will have a permanent resident card (green card). Another way to show LPR status is the I-551 stamp in the child's passport. This stamp shows the child has entered the United States on an immigrant visa and/or has been admitted as a lawful permanent resident.

 

 

 

I believe that their I-551 stamp was the proof needed for their child to be allowed to board. From what I read on the JH facebook page, it was the Customs and Border Patrol agent that made the determination, that the Carnival spokesperson just had to relay the denied boarding information to the family.

[42CruiseCrazy]

A child who has lawful permanent residence (LPR status) will have a permanent resident card (green card). Another way to show LPR status is the I-551 stamp in the child's passport. This stamp shows the child has entered the United States on an immigrant visa and/or has been admitted as a lawful permanent resident.

 

 

 

I believe that their I-551 stamp was the proof needed for their child to be allowed to board. From what I read on the JH facebook page, it was the Customs and Border Patrol agent that made the determination, that the Carnival spokesperson just had to relay the denied boarding information to the family.

 

 

I just read the update to the father's blog and he reported that the Carnival rep offered the family a replacement cruise because (after doing more research) they concluded that "the child could have sailed" admitting that a mistake had been made (not clear if the Customs agent or Carnival agent made the wrong call) They have declined to accept the cruise because they do not wish to travel to Florida. In my opinion, Carnival has made a reasonable offer and I hope that the parents of this child will find a way to accept the offer and treat the family to a nice cruise sometime in the future.:)

[CI66774]

I'm hopeful all will be resolved now that Carnival admitted its mistake. This family should not have had to endure this. I hope whatever resolution is fair and makes the family whole.

[skittl1321]

In my opinion, Carnival has made a reasonable offer and I hope that the parents of this child will find a way to accept the offer and treat the family to a nice cruise sometime in the future.:)

 

A refund is reasonable (of ALL the fares, not just the child's. Leaving the kid on the dock and going without him is not an option). A replacement cruise isn't really. It can cost over thousand dollars to fly a family to Florida (when DH and I looked to go to Tampa, tickets were $450 each, and rising). Plus more vacation time, which they may or may not have. A 'do-over' just isn't as easy as it sounds.

Edited November 1, 2013 by skittl1321

[42CruiseCrazy]

A refund is reasonable (of ALL the fares, not just the child's. Leaving the kid on the dock and going without him is not an option). A replacement cruise isn't really. It can cost over thousand dollars to fly a family to Florida (when DH and I looked to go to Tampa, tickets were $450 each, and rising). Plus more vacation time, which they may or may not have. A 'do-over' just isn't as easy as it sounds.

 

Perhaps you are right. Since the child "could have sailed" and the family was wrongly denied boarding it should be their option. They want a refund and Carnival should give it to them and put this fiasco behind them.

 

 

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[itsrikkig]

http://graspingwind.blogspot.com/2013/10/cruise-follow-up-child-could-have-sailed.html

[brooklynfc]

Perhaps you are right. Since the child "could have sailed" and the family was wrongly denied boarding it should be their option. They want a refund and Carnival should give it to them and put this fiasco behind them.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

 

I didn't want to get into this part of the situation, but........I'm just asking........

 

If it was really Customs (there hasn't been enough to say if Customs made this decision or not) who made the denial, would you say the same thing? In that instance, would Carnival be making a right for a wrong that really wasn't their fault, in which case, I believe offering a "do over" is a good olive branch. However, if it was Carnival, who solely made the decision, then yes.......they should be refunded in full.

 

While I know traveling with a family can be expensive, I'm sure Carnival could extend the offer to last for a year. Certainly, they would be planning on another vacation in a year. Then again, I guess if they have a sour taste in their mouth from how they were treated (whether it was Carnival or Customs) then they probably won't go no matter what.

 

It is one of those situations where a lot of money and emotions is involved and its just not going to be "fixed." Refund or not.

[skridge]

If the kids were born in Ethiopia, they would not have US birth certificates even if they now are US citizens.

 

 

 

If they are not yet legal US citizens it may have been something along the lines of the countries where they were going requiring travel visas for citizens from their country of origin. There are relatively few countries that a US citizen will need a visa to visit; nationals from many, many other countries aren't so fortunate.

 

The child became a legal US citizen when there plane touched down on US soil. They have offered to refund the child but not the family which is ridiculous. The family could not leave there child and go on the cruise without him.

[skridge]

While so sad for the family, it is clear they didn't have the right documentation. Their travel agent should have informed them of what documents were required.

 

It is actually clear they did have the right documentation. Carnival should make this right by issuing a full refund plus expenses to this family. Posters should get there facts straight. Carnival has admitted they should have let the boy board.

[skridge]

I don't think that's the case. No one said that.

 

However for arguments sake, if an Ethiopian person in the US were sailing aboard Carnival wouldn't they have to show proof of legal entry into the US and a Visa to visit the other countries?

 

I really believe the parents complicated matters with the Ethiopian passport. They believed the Carnival agent would know/understand the law about the entry Visa making the child a citizen and that the BC would be all that was required. I don't think the agent reacted unreasonably.

 

They showed a birth certificate from the state of NC. The child should have been allowed to board. Period.

[CI66774]

I didn't want to get into this part of the situation, but........I'm just asking........

 

If it was really Customs (there hasn't been enough to say if Customs made this decision or not) who made the denial, would you say the same thing? In that instance, would Carnival be making a right for a wrong that really wasn't their fault, in which case, I believe offering a "do over" is a good olive branch. However, if it was Carnival, who solely made the decision, then yes.......they should be refunded in full.

 

While I know traveling with a family can be expensive, I'm sure Carnival could extend the offer to last for a year. Certainly, they would be planning on another vacation in a year. Then again, I guess if they have a sour taste in their mouth from how they were treated (whether it was Carnival or Customs) then they probably won't go no matter what.

 

It is one of those situations where a lot of money and emotions is involved and its just not going to be "fixed." Refund or not.

 

The family was very clear on its blog - it was a Carnival supervisor who initially denied boarding. I assume then CBP was brought in - but Carnival denied the child. Moreover, it doesn't make sense CBP "denied" them initially because (I've cruise a lot) a pax's initial contact is with the cruise line representative who looks at your documentation, etc. If, in fact, the CBP also made a mistake then Carnival (after fully refunding the family) can request something from the federal gov't (that ain't gonna happen). Whichever way it happened, the family should receive a full refund. Apparently, Carnival already have apologized profusely for this debacle.

[gatormama]

My daughter was born in China. Our first cruise we used her birth certificate (completely in Chinese) and had the adoption certificate just in case. We never had a problem. This was before the passport rule. Our second cruise we got her an American passport, not a problem. We have never readopted her in the US. We are lazy. Any problems are not with Carnival.

[gatormama]

Did not get to the bottom before posting.

1. You can readopt a child in the U.S. to obtain a U.S. birth certificate.

2. Foreign adopted children are not legal residents; they are American citizens. It is an adoption visa and they are American citizens when the plane touches U.S. soil.

3. All foreign adoptees travel to America on a foreign passport which is a legal document and can be used by the parents as a passport for the child if the issuing country recognizes dual citizenship (not the best idea since the U.S. government has no obligation to help if there is a problem)

 

 

I still don't get why the parents just didn't get a passport for the kids?