Reason for staffing "reductions": delays in Visa application approvals?

[jhannah]

Well ... (as the late President used to say) ... if we want to get technical, the sky is not blue. Air is clear. The water molecules refract the sunlight coming through them so that blue gets through. (Just like the glaciers in Alaska.)

So there! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

'Vegas Jim

[gizmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LizB1:
I find it hard to believe that this situation in reduction of staff is caused solely by the Visa situation...more like a combination of factors and perhaps some of the crew are not happy either with some of the changes and are not returning to the ships!?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree and as Liz said it is more of a combination of factors and the visas alone are not causing the problem.
Unhappy crew is a good point. I talked to 2 bartenders on my cruise. One, who was leaving the ship in Philly ,said he would probably not come back because he did not like the changes. The other said he did not like the changes but was not sure what he was going to do.

[darnapar]

Most people do not like change.

You can tell this from all the "old" HAL cruisers and their dislike of changes to the ship and services from what they are use to. In the end it will all sort out as HAL brings on staff who have only served under the new employment policies. Growing pains are just that painful. And that is what is happening to HAL right now.

[rkacruiser]

Since I am the one who started this thread, I am going to add an opinion or two.

It makes little sense to me that millions of dollars are being spent on up-grading the amenities on the ships, as the "Signature of Excellence" program is being advertised to doing, while purposefully reducing staff. It is the crew of HAL ships that make HAL special. And, I think corporate headquarters know this.

Where do the Unions of the employees fit into the changes that are reportedly being made(having to pay for uniforms, paying for return airfare home, etc.)? Would HAL not have to negotiate with these Unions before such changes are made? Would the employees not have a voice in such changes?

I am not yet convinced that visa approval delays are not the major reason for any reductions in staff that people have recently noticed.

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[elmorejj]

I have also been wondering where the union fit in with the changes. I wonder, do they operate on an X number of years contract with the union like on land or do they just carry a seamans union card and have no say so or vote in what is going on? it would be nice to find out....jean

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Where do the Unions of the employees fit into the changes that are reportedly being made(having to pay for uniforms, paying for return airfare home, etc.)? Would HAL not have to negotiate with these Unions before such changes are made? Would the employees not have a voice in such changes?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As a long time union member I realize there are "real unions" and "company unions"...I have often wondered which type HAL stewards have. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]

[imsulin]

Just an observation here: When we first started cruising in the 80's, (NCL, Carnival, RCI) most of the crew/staff were West Indian. We never noticed any problem with service. In the mid-90's, we began to notice many eastern European staff and crew. Most were/are very friendly, but we have run into a few problems with major rudeness - mainly in the onboard shops and at service desks. We love HAL because of its tradition of hiring Filipino and Indonesian crew, and this is really based on the history of the Dutch East India Company (1600's), based in Holland, and operating out of South Africa, Djarkata, (Indonesia), and the Phillipines. HAL's connection to Indonesia and the Phillipines is centuries old. One thing I've noticed, on HAL and on other cruise lines, is that the Indonesian staff are mostly in face-to-face service positions, while Filipinos tend to work more in the cleaning, buffet, and behind-the-scenes areas. Once on the NCL Norway, in one of the bars, an Indonesian bartender told me he was leaving because there were "too many Filipinos" (staff) on the ship. I've noticed a very subtle "division" between the Filipino (mostly Catholic) and the Indonesian (mostly Muslim) staff. I doubt that this has anything to do with what's going on, but since the Phillipines have long had US connections and interests, while Indonesia has not, there may be a major shift between the number of Filipino and the number of Indonesian staff, and they services they perform. Just my observations, mind you.

[RevNeal]

y'all

A Gender-Inclusive, North American English / Southern States Dialect, Personal Pronoun found in the Second Person Plural form.

Conjugation pattern:

I
You
He/she/it

We
Y'all
They

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Greg+
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[RevNeal]

In my opinion about 6 or 7 of us (8, including myself) need to board a Cruise ship and go through shore-time-de-toxification.

Let's go to the Crows Nest and soak in the view of the ocean! Drinks are on me! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Greg+
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[elmorejj]

Sign me up Greg, I`m ready..jean

[sail7seas]

Our docs are in for Maasdam Canada/New England....and none too soon!
I sure can use a dose of Crows and Ocean Bar.
This has been a rough stretch the last six months.

(seems ten days on Rotterdam in March was not nearly enough)

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[jhannah]

I'm in! September (our next sailing) seems so far away ... but I know it will be here before I know it.

(Rev, didn't know we could openly conjugate on this board.) [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

'Vegas Jim

[RevNeal]

Waiting for a cruise can be among the most exciting and exhausting of times. Thankfully, there are really only a few major things left for me to do before boarding ship. Here's a list of the things I must check off as having done before I can depart on vacation ... at least, this is the list as of today (it could always grow).

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>I have to preach and celebrate the Eucharist 15 more times. (Big deal ... I can do that standing on my head. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Now THAT's a funny mental image. LOL. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] )

<LI>I have to take my Dad on a fishing trip week after next. That will actually be fun.

<LI>I have to teach a week-long seminar in Sacramental Theology in early July.

<LI>I have to attend Jurisdictional Conference in mid/late July and participate in the election of 3 new Bishops for the South-Central Jurisdiction of the UMC.

<LI>I have to attend 1 district clergy meeting in early August.

<LI>I have a wedding to do in mid August, another in mid September.

<LI>I have to attend the retirement ceremony of our out-going Bishop in late August.

<LI>I have to attend the installation of our new Bishop early in September.

<LI>I get to attend the opening gala of the Dallas Symphony Orchestra in mid-September (Beethoven's 9th Symphony, among other lovely things).[/list]

And that's about it. Other than my daily and weekly duties, not to mention my writing schedule, there's not much ahead of me. Yet ... there IS enough that it will help make the days and weeks go quickly.

Please, Lord, let them go QUICKLY.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Rev, didn't know we could openly conjugate on this board. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So long as our online intercourse is always polite. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Greg+
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[elmorejj]

Greg, you are going to be so busy that Sept. and the Zaandam will be here before you know it! Wish we were doing the reverse repo with you....but we will be back on her in December.....jean

[imsulin]

Revneal - just have to tell you how much I have enjoyed your posts! Getting personal here...but are you of the Weslyan faith? I'm one of the original Protestants (Lutheran), and haven't been to church in years! I do, however, call Trinity Lutheran the day before Reformation Sunday and ask what time the service is. Then I don't show up. I used to deliberately bring a bottle of Mogen David wine and 2-day old bread for Communion when it was my turn....and I put peanut butter on those chunks of Communion bread. I used to genuflect backwards, in the hopes that the pastor would notice it. I used to sit right in the middle of the pew, and put five LBWs on each side of me. (Pew hogger!). I used to sing "A Mighty Fortress" very loudly and very off-key, and get very dirty looks from the Swedes and Norwegians next to me. Of course, I was about 10 years old at the time. My pastor has long since forgiven me, and so has God! I think.

[RevNeal]

imsulin,

LOL .... you sound like some church members in my own congregation! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

As for your question ... I'm a United Methodist, which means that I'm a member of a denomination founded by John Wesley because the Church of England failed to do its duty at the end of the Revolutionary War. [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I'm Wesleyan-Arminian in my theology and Anglo-Catholic in my spirituality.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I used to genuflect backwards, in the hopes that the pastor would notice it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FOFLMHO ... that would make you Russian Orthodox!!!! [img]http://messages.cruisecritic.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Greg+
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[url="http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html"]Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video[/url]
[url="http://www.revneal.org/alaska03embark.html"]Volendam: Alaska Inside Passage Cruise Pictures[/url]


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[RevNeal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Greg, you are going to be so busy that Sept. and the Zaandam will be here before you know it! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jean, actually ... this summer's schedule is light by comparison with last year's. I don't have something major listed for every week, and no Schools of Mission to teach in (thank God ... 10 years straight of teaching in the Mission Schools is enough to make anyone batty). Frankly, there's just enough activity to give me stuff to look forward to. Most events are spaced about 2 weeks apart from the events before and after, meaning that I'll always have something coming up, but not so much that I can't relax and do some research and writing on my next book.

But ... you're right ... this summer is going to go fast. The period in which time will slow down and crawl will be those 24 or so days in Sept before departure. Those last 3 weeks will be murder. Even with the installation of a new Bishop (1 worship service one evening) and a wedding (1 Saturday afternoon) there's not much going on those weeks (especially not during the weed days). SO ... all the more reason to throw myself into my writing. I've got 100 days to get as much of this book written as I can. I might even be able to get a good chunk of it done!

Greg+
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[url="http://www.revneal.org/hawaiicruise/hawaii.html"]Statendam: Hawaii Cruise Pictures and Video[/url]
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[ekerr19]

Sorry to go back on topic, but this topic interests me. I honestly believe the crew continue to get the "short end of the stick" from HAL; and to us, the crew is one of their most valuable assets.

It is my understanding that because the ships are not registered in the U.S., they are not subject to U.S. wage and hour laws, therefore there would be no union. I have heard different reasoning for the various ship registries, but I am unfamiliar with details regarding this.

From our discussions with numerous crew over the years, I understand that they are under a contract for a specific time period for each ship and paid minimally.

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[sail7seas]

The fact the ships are not U.S. Registered or that the crews are citizens of other countries (although some are U.S. citizens BTW), does not mean they do not have unions.

There are labor unions in countries other than U.S.

How effective the Indonesian Seaman's Union is or what is is called, I do not know.

<img src=http://domania.us/DaveEdwards/HALlogo.gif>

[ekerr19]

Sail-

You are right, I should have specified. What I should have posted is - unions as we know and understand their operations in the U.S.

ekerr (DH) is a proud member of the IBEW, and has been for many years. Everytime we cruise, we try to get a better understanding of labor practices worldwide.

It is a subject of great and ongoing interest to both DH & I, and helps keep us humble and grateful, IMO.

I also understand there are many U.S. citizens employed on HAL ships, one of the Club HAL staff our Zuiderdam cruise had recently graduated from C.U. Boulder (not far from us), but I would venture they are the minority.

The point I was striving for was that many individuals (worldwide) do not have the opportunity to experience fair labor laws in their own countries. I often times feel they are somewhat exploited by companies such as HAL (and many other companies, don't get me wrong) because working conditions in their home countries are so poor.

I am not trying to make a political statement - so I'll just leave it - but, there was a time when the majority of employees we talked to were happy to work for HAL. We don't necessarily find that the case any longer.

At any rate, the Visa issue does come into play, no doubt about it. Staffing levels appeared to be down on all our post 9/11 cruises.

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[raydon]

It is not a problem with Visa from the Phillipines....we have no difficulty at all. Like every big company, when one has to cut to make profits for share holders the biggest impact that can be made is in the area of man power and productivity. Sad but true.

Radiance of the Seas
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[rkacruiser]

If one surfs Holland America's website, one will find a page titled "Shipboard Employment".

To quote from that page: "Due to labor agreements between the ship-owning companies and unions in Holland, Indonesia, and the Philippines, most of our crew positions(including the majority of service staff personnel) are limited to members of those unions."

So, those unions do exist. But, the question remains as to the role they play in setting working conditions for the service staff.

In reading the information on the pages dealing with employment with Holland America, it is obvious that the Company recognizes the importance of their staff to the success of the Line. Why, then, would they reduce staff to the degree that some believe has been done, thereby endangering that success?

One of those who have posted to this topic stated that there may be a combination of factors causing the perception of reduced staffing. I think this may well be true. And, delays in Visa approvals may be the prime factor.

24 cruises: 10 Holland America, 3 Princess, 3 Pacific Far East Line, 2 Royal Viking Line, 1 each: Cunard, NCL, RCCL, Sitmar, American Hawaii, Home Lines

[lknick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The point I was striving for was that many individuals (worldwide) do not have the opportunity to experience fair labor laws in their own countries. I often times feel they are somewhat exploited by companies such as HAL (and many other companies, don't get me wrong) because working conditions in their home countries are so poor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unfortunately, this is the line being played by American unions to justify their ineffectiveness in improving productivity to justify salaries desired.

Unions [B]are not[/B] an American invention. Gompers formed what became the AFL...a pure trade union...in the 1880s. Strong unions appeared in both the Netherlands and Prussia [Germany] during the 1840s, in England during the 1860s. As Indonesia was a colony of the Netherlands, the same unions appeared there.

Today, some militants might call the Indonesian unions 'company unions' as they do work for the better good of both the worker and the employer, but the Hotel and Cruise employees union in the Indonesia is [B]not[/B] a paper tiger.

Much of this confusion comes from what people hear from the crew. Little is completely accurate, ie "I only get $50 a month." Yes, he does receive US$50 'walking around money' but US$250 is sent directly to his family. Besides that, he also receives other benefits such as medical and dental care. Including extras, calculations for a 12 months contract come to between US$30,000 and US$40,000 per year...more than many US based workers with similar job responsibility.

The estimates that by adding tips to the cruise account will increase this amount more than the deductions for uniforms and airfare. [btw, I understand it took over 18 months to negotiate this arrangement with the union.]

So in my mind, there is no reason to claim cruise line workers are not fairly compensated and are not properly representated.

Now, if only cruisers would consent to being tendered to a ship outside the US 3 mile limit, there would be no visa problem.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL

[ekerr19]

Iknick-

Thanks for contributing... I can understand many of your points, but I don't quite understand the math...

$300 a month for 12 months is $3,600 - medical and dental per employee at our firm ranges from about $3,100 (annually) for single coverage to $9,600 (annually) for family coverage. The rates are based on the age of employee.

Assuming $3,600 base salary and $9,600 (100% company paid family medical and dental) the annual wage would be $13,200 - far short of $30,000 - $40,000... what am I missing?

I am not trying to be sarcastic or aurgumentative - I am naturally curious about this and would like to get a better understanding of how it works.

Also, $50 walking around money would last most people a week or so... especially if they were frequently purchasing calling cards to call home. It does not seem to be much for the employee to keep...

Noordam 1984
Veendam 1999
Amsterdam 2000
Noordam 2001
Statendam 2001
Noordam 2002
Zuiderdam 2003
Maasdam 2004.
Noordam 2004

[lknick]

Just to run some numbers. Any one may be incorrect.

The example is for a cabin steward:

10 cabins X 2 people per cabin X US$3 per person = US$60 per week in 'tips'.

365 days per year X US$60 per week = US$21,900 +13,200 = 35,100...right in the middle of the range.

Say 20% remove their 'tips' and tip nothing, then the number drops to US$30,720.

40 cruises: mainly Cunard, Carnival, HAL, NCL, RCI, Starclipper, Seabourn. ~511 days total, ~325 on HAL