Westerdam's Captain Goes A Little Crazy With The Horn

[legalslave]

Those of us who have spent some time at sea in a professional capacity cringe at the actions of this Captain. Topsham has stated it very well. There are regulations such as the International Rules of the Road that all ships must adhere to for safe navigation on inland and international waters. Here is Rule 80.35: "Rule prohibiting unnecessary sounding of the whistle.-Unnecessary sounding of the whistle is prohibited within any harbor limits of the United States. Whenever any licensed officer in charge of any vessel shall authorize or permit such unnecessary whistling, such officer may be proceeded against in accordance with the provisions of R.S. 4450, as amended, looking to a revocation or suspension of his license."

This is from an old copy of Knight's Modern Seamanship which I had to study to qualify as Officer of the Deck for Independent Steaming years ago in my Navy career.

 

Are whistles and horns the same thing?

 

Diane

[PathfinderEss]

Are whistles and horns the same thing?

 

Diane

 

Yeah, I believe so legalslave.

[jtl513]

And it's a far cry from what caused the Concordia disaster.

The root cause of that accident was also juvenile show-off antics. Fortunately for all of us, most Captains act like adults.

.

Edited November 19, 2014 by jtl513

[kazu]

If the port authorities, Coast Guard, and local residents aren't complaining about it, then more power to the captain for having a bit of fun, even if it's not strictly within the rules. And it's a far cry from what caused the Concordia disaster.

 

 

 

The root cause of that accident was also juvenile "showing off" antics. Fortunately for all of us, most Captains act like adults.

 

It's very rare when I disagree with you, but this is not the same as the actions of the captain of the Concordia. You can toot and still be responsible :)

 

For example, when we were on the Prinsendam, we circled Fuerteventura, sailing very close to the island for the passengers to view and wave to the island folk who were all excited to have our cruise ship there. This was done with a pilot and the Island's permission (not irresponsible). The Prinsendam tooted over and over and over to the islanders. We didn't consider it irresponsible nor did the pilot and it was all great fun - and SAFE.

 

I don't think anyone would ever call Captain Gunderson juvenile. He's well respected, a tremendous sailor and he was the Captain at the time.

[Topsham]

Yesterday I spoke to a friend in Lauderdale... a retired Senior Pilot...

 

 

 

"As far as Port Everglades is concerned that whistle blowing has gotten out of hand. During my piloting years it was always restricted to three long blasts at Point of the Americas, and that was after the master asked the pilot for his approval. Now it has become almost like a "look at me" attention getting bunch of bullsh*t. I believe the new breed of young shipmaster is doing this on his own (perhaps with company permission) without the pilot having the balls to say stop it, you are interfering with the navigation of the ship and the serenity of the port."

 

 

The original poster was asking if if it was OK or too much blowing. Everyone wants to have fun. 99% think it is as fun without possibly thinking that it might result in an accident.

 

Did you think anyone even thought that a harmless sail past would result with CONCORDIA lying a wreck? It wasn't a deliberate attempt to the wreck... all he was trying to show the sip to the islanders..... sailing past.. blowing the horns. Heck... they wrecked the ship before they even started blowing the horn!

 

I tell you one thing... those days of 'sail past' are over. Why because one captain was not paying attention. Several were not paying attention . Blowing the horn on the bridge for several minutes.... well...

[Topsham]

Responsible?

 

Two well found ships with the best of any captain found anywhere....

 

One night they decided to pass each other to say 'hello' and blow the horns a few times to show the passenger. Up in the Red Sea... no land in sight... just deep sea. A quiet night... BANG!!!! Reason? Having fun with the horn!

[Lizzie68]

Boy, you are really determined to put a stop to it, aren't you?

[Topsham]

Boy, you are really determined to put a stop to it, aren't you?

 

 

 

No, not at all. I like the horns... as much as everyone else. I just don't like hearing the horn that it is playing like a toy. I'm simply trying to show how a simple thing like the blowing the horn can cause a major accident.

[Alberta Quilter]

No, not at all. I like the horns... as much as everyone else. I just don't like hearing the horn that it is playing like a toy. I'm simply trying to show how a simple thing like the blowing the horn can cause a major accident.

 

It sounds just like distracted driving! And, we all have heard about or experienced the results of distracted driving.

 

Thank you, Topsham, for the information you've provided. It's certainly opened my eyes on something that I knew little about.

[jtl513]

It's very rare when I disagree with you, but this is not the same as the actions of the captain of the Concordia. You can toot and still be responsible :)

 

For example, when we were on the Prinsendam, ... We didn't consider it irresponsible nor did the pilot and it was all great fun - and SAFE.

Had the Concordia not hit the rocks, many on board and on shore would have said that was great fun too. Both that and excessive horn blowing by the W are immature exhibitionism to me. It's only a matter of degree.

 

I'm not saying that extreme horn blowing at FLL is unsafe (although Topsham is showing that it can be and has been) or irresponsible, just that it goes far beyond "fun". A dozen quick toots = fun ... the Westerdam's extreme = noise pollution. :p

 

If it's such great fun why aren't all the Captains following suit? Because it's childish.

 

Scale it back to where it was a year or two ago! :)

[BeagleOne]

The root cause of that accident was also juvenile show-off antics. Fortunately for all of us, most Captains act like adults.

.

 

Oh, please. Blowing the horn a few times is a far cry from changing course to buzz an island.

[Homosassa]

It is not only the Westerdam that blows its horn when leaving Ft Lauderdale.

 

I sailed several different cruiselines and it is a game that the people in the condos and the cruise ships play as the condos are passed. Usually the cruise ship plays back the rhythm of a condo owner air horn blasts and adds a new rhythm that the condo owner repeats back and adds to.

 

A current review on the Princess forum by someone new to Princess talks about the same thing done by the Caribbean Princess as the conds are passed.

[kazu]

Yesterday I spoke to a friend in Lauderdale... a retired Senior Pilot...

 

 

 

"As far as Port Everglades is concerned that whistle blowing has gotten out of hand. During my piloting years it was always restricted to three long blasts at Point of the Americas, and that was after the master asked the pilot for his approval. Now it has become almost like a "look at me" attention getting bunch of bullsh*t. I believe the new breed of young shipmaster is doing this on his own (perhaps with company permission) without the pilot having the balls to say stop it, you are interfering with the navigation of the ship and the serenity of the port."

 

 

The original poster was asking if if it was OK or too much blowing. Everyone wants to have fun. 99% think it is as fun without possibly thinking that it might result in an accident.

 

Did you think anyone even thought that a harmless sail past would result with CONCORDIA lying a wreck? It wasn't a deliberate attempt to the wreck... all he was trying to show the sip to the islanders..... sailing past.. blowing the horns. Heck... they wrecked the ship before they even started blowing the horn!

 

I tell you one thing... those days of 'sail past' are over. Why because one captain was not paying attention. Several were not paying attention . Blowing the horn on the bridge for several minutes.... well...

 

Yes, the Concordia captain was careless and irresponsible IMO. He was going where it was forbidden and did NOT have a pilot. Not at all like the example I gave of the Prinsendam doing the sail past where there was pilot and the island's permission.

[kazu]

Had the Concordia not hit the rocks, many on board and on shore would have said that was great fun too. Both that and excessive horn blowing by the W are immature exhibitionism to me. It's only a matter of degree.

 

I'm not saying that extreme horn blowing at FLL is unsafe (although Topsham is showing that it can be and has been) or irresponsible, just that it goes far beyond "fun". A dozen quick toots = fun ... the Westerdam's extreme = noise pollution. :p

 

If it's such great fun why aren't all the Captains following suit? Because it's childish.

 

Scale it back to where it was a year or two ago! :)

 

The Concordia did NOT have a pilot on board plus where they were going was forbidden if I recall correctly. That captain was irresponsible. The Prinsendam had a pilot on board as well as an escort. Captain Gunderson was a very careful captain and guarded his ship and his passengers well.

 

Two different scenarios IMO.

 

sorry, I answered one post before I saw this one. I should have double quoted. Apologies for being repetitive.

Edited November 19, 2014 by kazu

[Topsham]

The Concordia did NOT have a pilot on board plus where they were going was forbidden if I recall correctly. That captain was irresponsible. The Prinsendam had a pilot on board as well as an escort. Captain Gunderson was a very careful captain and guarded his ship and his passengers well.

 

Two different scenarios IMO.

 

sorry, I answered one post before I saw this one. I should have double quoted. Apologies for being repetitive.

 

 

 

That is nothing at all to do with the pilot at all. It is the captain responsible for every order on the bridge if he 'has the con'. The pilot is only to 'advise' the captain. There is only one place in the world where the pilot takes complete charge of the navigation of a vessel... and that is Panama Canal.

 

Look through every page of the Bridge Log Book. Look at any page where the pilot is on board. It will have the letters: "TMO & PA" Simply the log says... "TO MASTERS ORDERS & PILOT ADVICE".

 

For CONCORDIA... the ship was not forbidden to go past Giglio. Yes, there was a deviation from the original plan from the first port to the next. That is a normal routine. Voyage planning is not in the office... it is planned on board. Usually the Second Officer will put the courses on the charts and then approval for the master. This was all normal.

 

If Captain Gundersen took a tour around the island.... you will not find any e-mail to Head Office asking for permission to sail around the island. If it is a major deviation, yes, for a reason they will go back to the office. CONCORDIA and other Costa ships had been touring Giglio in the past. It was a routine sailing.... without or with a deviation.

 

Yes, the abilities of Captain Gundersen or any other captain is just doing his job... safety of the ship, passengers and crew are No. 1. But even shi* happens!

 

Did you ever of the story on board the ROYAL VIKING SUN.... when she was new before went to Seabourn and Holland America and was renamed PRINSENDAM? Went up to Aquaba and the ship swiped a reef in the middle of the straits. The ship was almost lost. Millions of damage to the ship and million in damage to the reef. It was a normal passage. Where was the captain? He was in the Crew Bar for a farewell party!!! Captain was relieved and that was when Hale Gundersen was stepped into that post

 

I am trying the point. You take no chances with safety and navigation... and that included playing with blowing a horn. I'm not saying we should never blow the horns... I'm just trying to explain that treating a a horn as toy should never happen. Imagine, the scene in the courtroom... "Captain what where you doing when your ship hit the rock?" "I was blowing the horn." How do you explain that one!

[Topsham]

Island Fuertevntura....

 

Great for sailing past the island..... for most...

 

Sadly, this was not just a sail past for passengers . The former United States Line AMERICA was under tow and the tow parted in heavy weather. She went onto the rocks. Not a pretty sight.

 

As far as cruising past the island of Fuerteventura.. plenty of deep water almost right up to the rocks. 1/2 mile would be fine. But even there... something can go wrong... steering loss whatever... ship end up like the AMERICA.

[kazu]

That is nothing at all to do with the pilot at all. It is the captain responsible for every order on the bridge if he 'has the con'. The pilot is only to 'advise' the captain. There is only one place in the world where the pilot takes complete charge of the navigation of a vessel... and that is Panama Canal.

 

Look through every page of the Bridge Log Book. Look at any page where the pilot is on board. It will have the letters: "TMO & PA" Simply the log says... "TO MASTERS ORDERS & PILOT ADVICE".

 

For CONCORDIA... the ship was not forbidden to go past Giglio. Yes, there was a deviation from the original plan from the first port to the next. That is a normal routine. Voyage planning is not in the office... it is planned on board. Usually the Second Officer will put the courses on the charts and then approval for the master. This was all normal.

 

If Captain Gundersen took a tour around the island.... you will not find any e-mail to Head Office asking for permission to sail around the island. If it is a major deviation, yes, for a reason they will go back to the office. CONCORDIA and other Costa ships had been touring Giglio in the past. It was a routine sailing.... without or with a deviation.

 

Yes, the abilities of Captain Gundersen or any other captain is just doing his job... safety of the ship, passengers and crew are No. 1. But even shi* happens!

 

Did you ever of the story on board the ROYAL VIKING SUN.... when she was new before went to Seabourn and Holland America and was renamed PRINSENDAM? Went up to Aquaba and the ship swiped a reef in the middle of the straits. The ship was almost lost. Millions of damage to the ship and million in damage to the reef. It was a normal passage. Where was the captain? He was in the Crew Bar for a farewell party!!! Captain was relieved and that was when Hale Gundersen was stepped into that post

 

I am trying the point. You take no chances with safety and navigation... and that included playing with blowing a horn. I'm not saying we should never blow the horns... I'm just trying to explain that treating a a horn as toy should never happen. Imagine, the scene in the courtroom... "Captain what where you doing when your ship hit the rock?" "I was blowing the horn." How do you explain that one!

 

thanks Stephen,

 

guess I got an education. I thought the pilot knew the waters and advised the captain. I thought if a pilot was on board then things should be safe.

 

Thanks for the info.

[Topsham]

thanks Stephen,

 

guess I got an education. I thought the pilot knew the waters and advised the captain. I thought if a pilot was on board then things should be safe.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

 

Quite true... the pilot advises... he knows local waters... but the order are by the captain.

 

When you hear the pilot saying on the bridge.... "Port ten or midships, five starboard!" Yes the pilot is saying is because he is 'piloting', but the captain is one that responsible and the captain and the other officers listen to every order is said on the bridge. That is the reason why a quiet wheelhouse is needed for safety navigation.

 

When the captain is entering port.. or sailing from the captain must have his own voyage plan for every step of the navigation. If the pilot suddenly dropped dead... it should not be any problem getting the ship back out or back into port.

 

The big ferries from say Dover to Calais.... large ships.. once or two crossing a day. They don't take a pilot at Calais or Dover because after the captain has spent perhaps six months on that run and must also do a pilotage examination... and must be also fluent in English and French. Then the captain can claim exemption.

 

It is a big bad world of shipping out there! Thankfully there are so many professional crews to take our ships from A to B.

 

Stephen

 

PS. Most captains are sometime known as the 'big tippers'. Now you know why!;)

[InTheWASide]

Very interesting read. Looked at the post when it first came up just to watch the video. Everything that followed was very interesting.

 

Thanks for all the info Captain!

[rkacruiser]

Certainly Captain Card has provided us with excellent information concerning this subject. And, I thank him for that.

 

But, another thought about the "Captain doing the tooting": Is it really the ship's Master that is pushing the button for the horn? Or, is it a Sailor or other officer who is on the Bridge?

 

I raise this point because when one watches the Enchantment of the Seas sail from Port Canaveral, depending upon whom the Master is, that gentleman is out on the Starboard Bridge wing waving a big hand while the ship's horn is being tooted. (Not as much as the Westerdam's, but more than most of the other ships that sail from Port Canaveral.) It is my impression, he is not the "tooter"; someone else on the Bridge is. Doing this, of course, with the approval of the Master.

 

If I am correct, besides the Pilot on the Bridge, on a HAL ship at sailing time, there is the Master, the Staff Captain, two on-duty Officers, and two Sailors. And, I think a 3rd Sailor on stand-by. If the Master is having someone else "push the button", does that then mean he is not paying attention to his navigational duties?

 

How many times, watching the Port Everglades webcam, when they do a close-up of the Port Bridge wing of a ship, have you seen an Officer standing at the windows looking at the condos and not what was ahead? (I know I have observed this many times.) Does that mean they are not paying attention to their duties?

 

My point is this: A ship's Master could still authorize a festive sailaway while performing his expected duties.

[Topsham]

 

My point is this: A ship's Master could still authorize a festive sailaway while performing his expected duties.

 

 

Are you joking? It is the Captain's horn and that is the fun of it! Otherwise he would say, "Stop that blasted horn!"

 

Serious, it could be anyone who is told to do it. Does not matter who is blowing the horn... it is the noise and possible distraction.

 

I have seen some ships with the pilot will blow the horn..it is for signalling but not for a greeting.

 

Stephen

[Lizzie68]

I think you've achieved taking all the fun out of it and beating down anyone who says they enjoy it. Now we'll just have to enjoy it without saying anything and when the day comes when it stops, we'll know you achieved your end.;)

[Hertz Von Seasider]

I'm struggling to believe some of these responses. Here is a Captain, totally responsible for all our safety, navigating in and out of ports, heavy seas, through narrow channels and sometimes locks in Panama and elsewhere. Do you trust him to do that / Do you trust him to blow a few horns ?

[rkacruiser]

Are you joking? It is the Captain's horn and that is the fun of it! Otherwise he would say, "Stop that blasted horn!"

 

Serious, it could be anyone who is told to do it. Does not matter who is blowing the horn... it is the noise and possible distraction.

 

I have seen some ships with the pilot will blow the horn..it is for signalling but not for a greeting.

 

Stephen

 

I am not joking. How much noise can be heard on the Bridge from the horn? When I have been in the interior of a ship and the horn is used, I hear little, if anything. If the horn is located on the Mast above the Bridge, it is probably heard more easily than a horn located on the funnels. I do not know where on the Westerdam the horn is located.

[Topsham]

I am not joking. How much noise can be heard on the Bridge from the horn? When I have been in the interior of a ship and the horn is used, I hear little, if anything. If the horn is located on the Mast above the Bridge, it is probably heard more easily than a horn located on the funnels. I do not know where on the Westerdam the horn is located.

 

 

 

Here is a photo for horn above bridge OOSTERDAM. There is usual two... one forward and one on funnel. The one above is used when need for in fog so that passengers are not to disturbed. They are usually disturbed and can go on for hours and even days.... long blast at intervals not more two minutes After an Atlantic crossing you don;t want to ever hear it again!

 

The purpose of the horn is signalling... mostly for as a fog horn. On old ship there were open bridge wings. In fog usually the lookout and an officer would stay out in the wings... listening for horns of other ships. It might be hearing a deep horn from a large ship or might be a little squeek of a small sail yacht. As ship began butting more equipment inside the bridge owners decided to have enclosed bridge wings... or a lot of electronics in the bridge wings would get wet. The problem is, you have to be able to hear... even faint horns. So..... there is a microphone outside you can amplify sound and be able to hear horns inside the wheelhouse.

 

You cannot shut down to stop hearing inside the wheelhouse. You are not trying to hear your own... you need to horns of other vessels.... another cruise ship, container ship, pilot boat, ferry, small yacht... or a little boat with a small whistle.... those need to be hear from outside.... it is part gor watchkeeping. It is not all electronic watching of radars etc.... keeping a good lookout means just that.

 

Stephen