No lounge chairs on Kdam veranda deck ?

[sppunk]

But, they didn't check with the cruising experts here on Cruise Critic.

True, the .05 percent or whatever of pax that post on CC are very valuable. ;)

[EDLOS]

Let me just say even though we had some issues on our initial 14 day K'dam cruise to the North Cape back in July, the ship itself is pretty cool and I would highly recommend taking a cruise on her IF she has an itinerary you would enjoy. Yes, there are no lounge chairs on the promenade, but there is still a promenade you can walk on or stand by the rail and see what you can see. Yes, the promenade is tight in some places, but wide enough to walk on. Yes, the Lido buffet is busy, but so was the Lido buffet on the Amsterdam we just disembarked from.

 

However, there are some very cool additions also that are not on any of the other HAL ships. For one, you get to meet inside during muster instead of lining up on the promenade. That was always a fun event. They have a culinary arts center now like they have on some of the Oceania ships with cooking stations which for a small fee you can learn how to cook a dish which you subsequently get to eat. They have some great new dining areas which all offer great food, and, of course, there is the World Stage, which is in a class of its own with a 270 degree movie screen wall with 12 million LED bulbs. They also have quite the variety of entertainment venues as well as a ton of places you can sneak off to when you want to enjoy reading a good book.

 

So before you decide to write off the K'dam because of a small promenade deck or a dinky library, you may want to check out all of the cool new areas she has to offer.

 

OK, I'll get off the soap box now. I just had to say something positive about the K'dam as there is a lot of negative getting thrown around on this thread, some by those who haven't even cruised on her yet.

 

There is an old Business Axion which said " people will tell 3 people about a positive experience, but will tell 10 people about a negative experience "

Or the old Newspaper saying " good news doesn't sell".

The threads that draw the most replies are the negative ones with people agreeing or disagreeing. And I believe HAL sometimes listens and reacts i.e. revamping the Lincoln Center presentation venue on the Eurodam on the TA in November. The old Adagio venue was walled off and you could hear the jackhammers going at it. Virtually everyone loved the new Classical Quartet but hated the location, seating, etc.

[jtl513]

You have to consider that widening the ship creates a bigger volume that has to be filled with something, so the cost is not just related to the hull and superstructure but also the interior.

Yes - more tables and chairs in the PG, more chairs in the lounges and bars, more display cases in the shops, more side-ways interior cabins on the Main deck ... all of which add to revenue in the long run.

.

Edited December 9, 2016 by jtl513

[RocketMan275]

Yes - more tables and chairs in the PG, more chairs in the lounges and bars, more display cases in the shops, more side-ways interior cabins on the Main deck ... all of which add to revenue in the long run.

.

 

Are you saying that Holland should have reduced the size of the bars, lounges, shops, and eliminated cabins in order to place loungers on the promenade?

[jtl513]

Are you saying that Holland should have reduced the size of the bars, lounges, shops, and eliminated cabins in order to place loungers on the promenade?

No. Exactly the opposite. I'm saying that they should have added 10 ft to the beam for a wider promenade to accommodate loungers, and as a by-product expanded the revenue-producing spaces on the widened decks below that.

[RuthC]

I just had to say something positive about the K'dam as there is a lot of negative getting thrown around on this thread, some by those who haven't even cruised on her yet.

You say that (and you are not the only one) as if not having sailed on the Koningsdam makes a negative opinion on the ship somehow unfair, or not plausible.

 

Since even before the ship was launched there have been depictions, pictures, and information about it. Post-launch there have been live-from threads, post-cruise reviews, and even more pictures.

It only takes reading what's been posted to be able to form a valid opinion on the desirability of the ship for a given individual. You don't have to be a chicken to recognize an egg.

[Ken the cruiser]

You say that (and you are not the only one) as if not having sailed on the Koningsdam makes a negative opinion on the ship somehow unfair, or not plausible.

 

Since even before the ship was launched there have been depictions, pictures, and information about it. Post-launch there have been live-from threads, post-cruise reviews, and even more pictures.

It only takes reading what's been posted to be able to form a valid opinion on the desirability of the ship for a given individual. You don't have to be a chicken to recognize an egg.

 

So tell me, RuthC, have you cruised on the Koningsdam yet and if so, what are your thoughts about the pros and cons of the ship? If you haven't, then you are correct. I consider your opinion as valid as anyone else's that has not cruised on her yet - pretty much worthless.

[RuthC]

So tell me, RuthC, have you cruised on the Koningsdam yet and if so, what are your thoughts about the pros and cons of the ship? If you haven't, then you are correct. I consider your opinion as valid as anyone else's that has not cruised on her yet - pretty much worthless.

I canceled my cruise on the Koningsdam---for reasons having nothing to do with the undesirability of the ship itself. I still plan to sail her someday, as it is still my goal to sail every ship in the fleet. But I will sail her for some short, throwaway cruise just to fill that bill.

 

However, I have read every single post about the ship since it's inception. I have seen all the pictures, know how small my customary cabin would be, and the lack of amenities in that cabin---such as not so much as a desk chair to sit on! :eek: Other HAL ships offer me a choice of chair and couch in an inside cabin.

I know I would not be able to sit and commune with the sea, nor even be able to get outside to the Promenade Deck in a scooter. I know the ship doesn't have a Piano Bar, which I have always enjoyed, and has little else that I would enjoy at night.

I wouldn't be able to get a book from the library to read.

 

If I'm to believe what has been written about this ship by the people who have sailed on her (I do), then that's all I need to form an opinion. I don't need your validation for my opinion to be correct for me.

[RocketMan275]

No. Exactly the opposite. I'm saying that they should have added 10 ft to the beam for a wider promenade to accommodate loungers, and as a by-product expanded the revenue-producing spaces on the widened decks below that.

 

Holland didn't want a ship that large. Once you settle on a size, then you have to make trade-offs. Loungers didn't make the cut.

[Ken the cruiser]

I canceled my cruise on the Koningsdam---for reasons having nothing to do with the undesirability of the ship itself. I still plan to sail her someday, as it is still my goal to sail every ship in the fleet. But I will sail her for some short, throwaway cruise just to fill that bill.

 

However, I have read every single post about the ship since it's inception. I have seen all the pictures, know how small my customary cabin would be, and the lack of amenities in that cabin---such as not so much as a desk chair to sit on! :eek: Other HAL ships offer me a choice of chair and couch in an inside cabin.

I know I would not be able to sit and commune with the sea, nor even be able to get outside to the Promenade Deck in a scooter. I know the ship doesn't have a Piano Bar, which I have always enjoyed, and has little else that I would enjoy at night.

I wouldn't be able to get a book from the library to read.

 

If I'm to believe what has been written about this ship by the people who have sailed on her (I do), then that's all I need to form an opinion. I don't need your validation for my opinion to be correct for me.

 

This is fine. You have drawn an opinion based on what you have read and you are acting upon it. I have no issues with that and I have no issues with other folks giving their opinions, good or bad, about any ship as long as they have either cruised on or have direct knowledge of that ship. But that's just me.

 

All I was trying to add is that there are some pretty cool things introduced on the K'dam that definitely needed to be reemphasized as there were a lot of negatives and "why didn't they" comments early on in this thread.

[bUU]

Just read the threads on this forum. Far more people express displeasure than pleasure with the K'dam "promenade".

.

That doesn't indicate what you think it does. People who are unhappy say so at a rate far in excess of those who are happy. And those who don't feel strongly either way rarely say anything at all. Reliance on forum posts for an indication of good versus bad is therefore ridiculous nonsense.

 

That's why normalized surveys matter. That's why purchasing behaviors matter. Talk is cheap. What matters is when people put their money where their mouth is.

[bUU]

It only takes reading what's been posted to be able to form a valid opinion on the desirability of the ship for a given individual.

"For a given individual."

 

That's a nuance totally missing from some previous comments on the thread, which instead were arguably categorical and even prejudicial against those who were pleased by what was offered instead of incensed.

[jtl513]

And we had no issues doing either during our two weeks on the Koningsdam in the Caribbean...

Okay, you found the "promenade" adequate for your needs ... but can you say that you prefer it to those on other HAL ships? Other than the increased privacy mentioned by Lovely Other, or that fact that it forces inside musters mentioned by Ken the cruiser, I see no one on this thread giving any reasons why they prefer the Alleyway.

What matters is when people put their money where their mouth is.

And I will ... back on older class ships. I will miss many of the new features of the K (Dutch Cafe and Sel de Mer especially) and I'm sure that HAL will have no trouble filling the K for many years to come. But not with my money.

 

BTW, it's not just the Alleyway and dinky "library" that turn me off; it's the total lack of brass, the dearth of rich woods, and the preponderance of chrome and white/gray/black. Beautiful to some - or maybe most - but not to me. Many times I felt like I was on some other cruise line, not HAL.

Edited December 10, 2016 by jtl513

[catl331]

HAL has internal data that show it is one of the least utilized spaces on the boat.

No matter how you design a ship, SOMEplace has to be the least utilized. If that was a good criteria for eliminating something, the Merabella shops should be scrapped tomorrow. Edited December 10, 2016 by catl331

[RocketMan275]

Okay, you found the "promenade" adequate for your needs ... but can you say that you prefer it to those on other HAL ships? Other than the increased privacy mentioned by Lovely Other, or that fact that it forces inside musters mentioned by Ken the cruiser, I see no one on this thread giving any reasons why they prefer the Alleyway.

 

Whether one prefers the Koingsdam promenade over the ones on the earlier ships really isn't the proper question. Every feature, and a wider promenade is a feature, requires a trade-off. The correct question would be : "What other amenity found on Koingsdam would you give up to have a wider promenade."

 

The suggested amenities would have to add up to approximately 10,000 square feet since the Koingsdam is about 1000 feet long and an extra wide promenade would add 10 feet to the beam. Also, any suggestions on which amenities to be removed should also include a discussion of how Holland can recoup any lost revenue.

Edited December 10, 2016 by RocketMan275

[jtl513]

"What other amenity found on Koingsdam would you give up to have a wider promenade."

 

The suggested amenities would have to add up to approximately 10,000 square feet since the Koingsdam is about 1000 feet long and an extra wide promenade would add 10 feet to the beam. Also, any suggestions on which amenities to be removed should also include a discussion of how Holland can recoup any lost revenue.

What?? :confused: :confused: With 10,000 sq ft more they can ADD or expand things, not remove anything. As I suggested before, they could have enlarged many things on the Plaza deck and added cabins on the Main deck, INcreasing revenue. Plus whatever could have been added to upper decks if those were widened as well. However, widening the entire ship (not just the promenade deck and lower) would have substantially increase building costs ... possibly even approaching the 10% figure you mentioned before ... so that may not have been a cost-effective option. Edited December 10, 2016 by jtl513

[RocketMan275]

What?? :confused: :confused: With 10,000 sq ft more they can ADD or expand things, not remove anything. As I suggested before, they could have enlarged many things on the Plaza deck and added cabins on the Main deck, INcreasing revenue. Plus whatever could have been added to upper decks if those were widened as well. However, widening the entire ship (not just the promenade deck and lower) would have substantially increase building costs ... possibly even approaching the "10%" figure you mentioned before ... so that may not have been a cost-effective option.

 

Sure, bigger ships can offer more amenities but at some point, the ship becomes so large that it's just not a Holland ship anymore. I would have liked to have seen a wider promenade and loungers but as a systems engineer (retired), I can understand the decisions that lead to their removal.

[jtl513]

... I can understand the decisions that lead to their removal.

Please explain to me how adding 10,000 sq ft (or any amount) can lead to the removal of things! :eek:

 

As far as being "not a Holland ship anymore" I'd say the Koningsdam is right on the edge of that already with the interior design choices and the removal of a decent library and promenade.

Edited December 10, 2016 by jtl513

[sppunk]

No matter how you design a ship, SOMEplace has to be the least utilized. If that was a good criteria for eliminating something, the Merabella shops should be scrapped tomorrow.

 

They make money. An empty deck doesn't.

[jtl513]

They make money. An empty deck doesn't.

I often wonder how much money they make. In all the cruises we have taken since they were added to HAL ships I have never seen a passenger in one when we walked by! I suppose it only takes one big fish to make up for a lot of empty time. ;) Edited December 10, 2016 by jtl513

[RocketMan275]

Please explain to me how adding 10,000 sq ft (or any amount) can lead to the removal of things! :eek:

 

As far as being "not a Holland ship anymore" I'd say the Koningsdam is right on the edge of that already with the interior design choices and the removal of a decent library and promenade.

 

It's not a matter of adding 10,000 square feet, it's more a matter of taking 10,000 square feet from the interior to make a wider promenade. If the ship has a fixed amount of space, you can't add without removing.

 

As for just adding space, Holland isn't about to increase the size of the ship just to add loungers on the promenade. Holland sized Koingsdam to meet Holland's requirements.

Edited December 10, 2016 by RocketMan275

[jtl513]

It's not a matter of adding 10,000 square feet, it's more a matter of taking 10,000 square feet from the interior to make a wider promenade. If the ship has a fixed amount of space, you can't add without removing.

I too am a retired systems engineer, but I simply can not understand your logic. You must not understand what I am saying. I am not suggesting taking away any interior space, and the ship does not have a "fixed amount of space".

 

Visualize the the ship head-on as roughly a square sitting on an inverted triangle, with the promenade deck being the "base" at the top of the triangle. Now widen just the base, increasing the vertex angle. On the base (promenade) deck the interior space doesn't change at all (the added width is all outside), but on all decks below that you gain space.

 

I'm not talking about a retro-fit of the existing ship, I'm saying this could have been done in the design.

Edited December 10, 2016 by jtl513

[RocketMan275]

I too am a retired systems engineer, but I simply can not understand your logic. You must not understand what I am saying. I am not suggesting taking away any interior space, and the ship does not have a "fixed amount of space".

 

Visualize the the ship head-on as roughly a square sitting on an inverted triangle, with the promenade deck being the "base" at the top of the triangle. Now widen just the base, increasing the vertex angle. On the base (promenade) deck the interior space doesn't change at all (the added width is all outside), but on all decks below that you gain space.

 

I'm not talking about a retro-fit of the existing ship, I'm saying this could have been done in the design.

 

You're assuming that Holland would find a larger ship acceptable. You can do anything you want if your budget has no limits. Holland wanted a ship under 100,000 tons.

[Ken the cruiser]

Just curious, but was there some structural reason HAL had to mount the tenders directly on the promenade deck rather than over it like all their other ships designs? If they had, there would have been plenty of room to accommodate some lounge chairs.

[jtl513]

Just curious, but was there some structural reason HAL had to mount the tenders directly on the promenade deck rather than over it like all their other ships designs?

No. They just wanted to convert all of the deck 4 obstructed OV (G&H) on previous ships to verandahs for increased revenue. As it turns out they got what I would call "semi verandas" with the top of the life boats about even with the top of the railing. You have to stand to see water for most of them. Edited December 10, 2016 by jtl513