Removing gratiuities - when to do it

[Salacia]

 

By the same token it seems to me that at least some of the tipped positions are just unnecessary jobs yo give someone something to do. One example the bell boy, never needed anyone to carry my bags for me, not even while I was in a wheelchair, so maybe that's why the hotels don't pay them and make them live on tips.

 

Years ago, as a University student, I spent a semester in Italy. Tippings customs vary there, almost as the dialect varies from region to region.

 

Anyway, on several occasions when using the public lavatory, I noticed that the facility was scrubbed clean and immaculately maintained. Apparently, unsalaried women "adopt" the laboratory and keep it clean. They work only for gratuities, which most local women and others happily pay. Once on the way out of a loo, I heard one of my fellow students from England say to the matron "I don't tip, ask somebody else".

 

But back to your post about bell boys being unpaid workers in the US. I believe you are mistaken. To the best of my knowledge, there are no un-paid (volunteer) workers in US hotels. And if you have an offer from some volunteer worker to carry your bags or park your car while checking into a US hotel, I suggest you think twice

[HelloKittysMum]

ABTA and ATOL protected? Therein lies the problem. All very clever booking in US, but when something goes wrong you don't get the same protection afforded to US residents.

We have booked holidays independently for over 25 years (and 40 years if you count holidays booked by my parents when I was a child) and have never needed atol or abta protection. It isn't for everyone but it is much the same as people booking low cost flights and airbnb. If you are prepared to bear the risk yourself you can make significant savings, if you are risk averse then (as with other things) there is a cost associated with that. I am happy to bear that risk and take the savings.

 

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[insanemagnet]

Clues:

 

--all employees of Cunard that have checks cut out of the main office are subject to either UK or USA labor laws and taxes. Service personnel and certain jobs onboard are private contractors and must deal with their own home country and their tax systems.

 

They would not be subject to UK or USA laws as the ships are flagged out to Bermuda, so the ships are subject to their laws (creating interesting issues when crimes occur onboard).

 

As for taxes, most nations treat seafarers as not liable for tax if they are away for 6 months or more, so all their pay is tax free whether basic pay or 'tips'.

 

The reason why the cruise companies separately charge for the service staff wages is profit. You sell more tickets advertising a £1000 cruise than you do advertising a £1100 cruise - and if people only pay £1000 it is the staff that lose not Cunard.

[BunnieBear]

So the assumption is that no Cunard passenger can possibly earn a living working as hard as a Cunard worker and of course all passengers have their hands inspected at embarkation to detect evidence of manual work.

 

Shock horror, you could well be dining with a bricklayer.

 

David

 

Does tipping still apply for those travelling below stairs in steerage? ;-)

 

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[ToadOfToadHall]

Clues:

 

--all employees of Cunard that have checks cut out of the main office are subject to either UK or USA labor laws and taxes. Service personnel and certain jobs onboard are private contractors and must deal with their own home country and their tax systems.

--some cruises sell out at a discount and others sell out in the black. Money due to service personnel never changes much because of the "gratuity" system. The company may make little or no profit on certain heavily discounted cruises, but labor costs are covered for the most part. As long as that ship is "full" the service people make their money. One reason for the fire sale of cabins the last few weeks.

 

Your explanation has nothing to do with nothing.

 

Point 1 : Taxes would then be down to each person.That has 100% nothing to do with itemising out labour charges to customers.

 

Point 2: Companies all the time either make a loss or make a profit. They still do not itemise out costs to a buyer separately. So what has a company's profit and loss account got to do with my question ?

 

Like I say, you explanation has no bearing on my question.

[balf]

Your explanation has nothing to do with nothing.

 

Point 1 : Taxes would then be down to each person.That has 100% nothing to do with itemising out labour charges to customers.

 

Point 2: Companies all the time either make a loss or make a profit. They still do not itemise out costs to a buyer separately. So what has a company's profit and loss account got to do with my question ?

 

Like I say, you explanation has no bearing on my question.

 

I really like it when someone puts into words, more concisely than I could, exactly my thoughts.

 

David

[kelmac]

Your explanation has nothing to do with nothing.

 

Point 1 : Taxes would then be down to each person.That has 100% nothing to do with itemising out labour charges to customers.

 

Point 2: Companies all the time either make a loss or make a profit. They still do not itemise out costs to a buyer separately. So what has a company's profit and loss account got to do with my question ?

 

Like I say, you explanation has no bearing on my question.

 

Seems to me many things are "itemized" on my cruise bill. Port Fees, Taxes, Fuel Adjustments, VISAs, ..., and yes, if you want to, you can prepay "Service Charges" (Gratuities).

I'm not defending this flawed system and Carnival Corporation represents everything wrong with America's tax system. As a multi-billion dollar company that pays on average 1.1% a year in corporate taxes, everything going on is set up to avoid laws and taxes, including their wage strategy. The American tax payer picks up the bill for port infrastructure, Coast Guard services, and FBI investigations. Carnival's founder fled the US to Israel to avoid taxes.

And yes, I understand "Flags of Convenience" used by all cruise lines.

 

But of course this has nothing to do with nothing. ;p

 

Enjoy!

Kel

[insanemagnet]

Seems to me many things are "itemized" on my cruise bill. Port Fees, Taxes, Fuel Adjustments, VISAs, ..., and yes, if you want to, you can prepay "Service Charges" (Gratuities).

 

None of those are separately itemised on cruise bills for UK customers.

 

So why should Cunard separately charge (it is not disclosed, so not shown) UK customers for the serving staff's wages?

[SALAD MUNCHER]

Like I said, large cruise companies are playing the tipping customs of one nation (USA) against most others. It is in their interest that USA passengers call those who are against auto tipping all kinds of names alluding to them being 'mean'; it works in their favour. Nobody likes to look mean so the majority will pay up even if they don't believe the system is right. This should not be a war of words between passengers, it should be a wake up call to encourage cruise companies to pay their staff a living wage

[BlueRiband]

Like I said, large cruise companies are playing the tipping customs of one nation (USA) against most others. It is in their interest that USA passengers call those who are against auto tipping all kinds of names alluding to them being 'mean'; it works in their favour. Nobody likes to look mean so the majority will pay up even if they don't believe the system is right. This should not be a war of words between passengers, it should be a wake up call to encourage cruise companies to pay their staff a living wage

 

Cunard could have done exactly that...by leaving their ships registered in the UK when the Equality Act 2010 was applied to cruise ships. Instead of reflagging for Bermuda they could have paid the higher wage scales...and then lose thousands of passengers to competing lines whose ships were not registered in the UK.

 

 

What looks more attractive in print: $1299 plus gratuities or $1380 gratuities included? They're the same. But anyone who argues "financial circumstances" as a justification to remove gratuities is going to gravitate to the lower number. All mass market lines would have to make the switch simultaneously. And then they would lose business to those who claimed that cruising had now become too expensive.

 

 

Many people support the concept of a "living wage" until they have to pay the price difference.

[3rdGenCunarder]

None of those are separately itemised on cruise bills for UK customers.

 

So why should Cunard separately charge (it is not disclosed, so not shown) UK customers for the serving staff's wages?

 

They are in the US. If you search for any voyage on the US website, it clearly states what the additional "taxes, fees, and port expenses" will be. They're listed separately on the invoice from the TA, too. I think it's because those fees are not subject to a TA's commission. That might be part of why the tips/service charges are not included. If they don't pay a commission on the service charge, more goes to the staff. (and less to the agent...)

[balf]

PARTIAL QUOTE

 

Tipping on board cruise ships goes way back to the earliest cruises, when the majority of passengers were Europeans. My suggestion is that we stick to the topic of tipping on cruise ships at sea, and not the local custom at home.

 

As the novelist wrote "the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there". Those early passengers, aristocracy, people of means with probably a smattering or "new money" have no revalence to today's situation. Many in fact brought their own sevants with them and we don't know much about the level of tipping: the British aristocracy were notorious for short changing servants and tradesmen. But they were all of one class in that they were all rich.

 

Now with the mix of social classes, and yes class still exists on board and ashore, and people from many different countries and cultures and degrees of wealth it's little wonder we can't agree. I will do as I wish and others undoubtedly will also. End of story.

 

David

[durante]

Balf, very well said.

[nigelc]

Like I said, large cruise companies are playing the tipping customs of one nation (USA) against most others. It is in their interest that USA passengers call those who are against auto tipping all kinds of names alluding to them being 'mean'; it works in their favour. Nobody likes to look mean so the majority will pay up even if they don't believe the system is right. This should not be a war of words between passengers, it should be a wake up call to encourage cruise companies to pay their staff a living wage

 

I am 100% with you - as I said before, tipping should be for excellent service and not paying staff wages.

[insanemagnet]

They are in the US. If you search for any voyage on the US website, it clearly states what the additional "taxes, fees, and port expenses" will be. They're listed separately on the invoice from the TA, too. I think it's because those fees are not subject to a TA's commission. That might be part of why the tips/service charges are not included. If they don't pay a commission on the service charge, more goes to the staff. (and less to the agent...)

 

But they are not in the UK, where the price is the price; a single item on the bill.

[ToadOfToadHall]

But they are not in the UK, where the price is the price; a single item on the bill.

 

Exactly.

 

But it's an America thing.

 

I have a theory about it;

 

For example, in the UK, VAT is nearly always shown in the price, so the price you see is the price you pay.

 

But in the US, it's not. So you see a price in say a shop. Then you trot off to pay, and only then do they add sales tax onto the price.

 

So my theory is that the reason tax is itemised out is because it's saying to your customer "look, this is price we are charging you, but it's more because the Government is adding on tax. It's nothing to do with us".

 

And this the example of port taxes etc it's the same idea.

 

But, why itemise out those taxes to customers ? You don't have any choice in the matter - you can't opt out of them. So all we want to see is the actual price that it's going to cost us. How that price is arrived at is irrelevant.

[insanemagnet]

But, why itemise out those taxes to customers ? You don't have any choice in the matter - you can't opt out of them. So all we want to see is the actual price that it's going to cost us. How that price is arrived at is irrelevant.

 

And when you do separate out the staff wages (as Cunard have done) AND fail to mention them anywhere in the booking process (as Cunard do) then is it any surprise when some customers decide they are unreasonable.

[ToadOfToadHall]

And when you do separate out the staff wages (as Cunard have done) AND fail to mention them anywhere in the booking process (as Cunard do) then is it any surprise when some customers decide they are unreasonable.

 

Correctington.

 

We don't need an itemised bill for something that is a fixed price.

[kelmac]

I have a Cunard cruise coming up and part of the deal was "pre-paid" gratuities and shipboard credit. Pretty standard for many cruise lines these days. On Celebrity and NCL most people are offered free drink packages and OBC for most of their cruises. I have a NCL cruise coming up where I get both "pre-paid" gratuities + a free drink package. I use an online, email only, travel agent in the US.

Do you think all UK cruisers should have their gratuities bundled into their total fare? Would this solve the issue? Of course, nothing is truly "free" in these offers, but would it have the desired psychological impact?

On my upcoming Cunard cruise, even though the company is paying my gratuities, I will give additional cash where the service is outstanding. An American curse perhaps, but when people jump through multiple hoops to make my holiday special, I feel the need to help them out. By the way, I'm middle class and retired and worked very hard for what I have, like most people.

Enjoy!

Kel

:D

[nigelc]

And when you do separate out the staff wages (as Cunard have done) AND fail to mention them anywhere in the booking process (as Cunard do) then is it any surprise when some customers decide they are unreasonable.

 

Sorry, but gratuities are not "staff wages". They may form part of the crews earnings but the cruise fare that we pay already incudes the cost of staff. While I am sure that we all recognise excellent service and reward it accordingly, threads like this tend to argue that we must pay our "auto gratuities" and then tip excellent service on top of that. Indeed, we then need to pay a further 15% service charge on top of all of that if we want a drink. While I agree that staff work hard, but so do I to earn all this money - and get no tips.

[kentchris]

Indeed, we then need to pay a further 15% service charge on top of all of that if we want a drink.

Whatever the rights and wrongs are about tipping, I thought it was well understood that sommeliers and bar waiters aren't included in the tip pool from the auto gratuities: their tips are the 15% service charge.

[nigelc]

Whatever the rights and wrongs are about tipping, I thought it was well understood that sommeliers and bar waiters aren't included in the tip pool from the auto gratuities: their tips are the 15% service charge.

 

Do not really care what "tip pool" it goes too, it still costs me 15%. Indeed, if I walk up to the pool bar and order a coke or a beer, what real service do I get for my 15%? No a lot, just the cruise company providing the basic service needed to sell the product. In addition, I really do not believe that the bar staff etc get all of this service charge, its far too much money for cruise lines to let go of it.

[insanemagnet]

Sorry, but gratuities are not "staff wages". They may form part of the crews earnings but the cruise fare that we pay already incudes the cost of staff.

 

The stewards and waiters receive a miniscule amount as basic pay and the $23 / $27 per cabin makes up the bulk of the money they take home. So I don't think it unreasonable to describe the service charge as staff wages.

[nigelc]

The stewards and waiters receive a miniscule amount as basic pay and the $23 / $27 per cabin makes up the bulk of the money they take home. So I don't think it unreasonable to describe the service charge as staff wages.

 

Sorry, but this means nothing. Is that amount per week, per month, per year? How many cabins do they get paid to cover? If we are including gratuities as wages then we must not forget the value of free accommodation, free food/soft drinks/tea/coffee, free uniforms, free health care and the chance to travel the world for free. Yes, there are negatives about the job, as there are in most jobs. But we must recognise that the remuneration package is not just based on the basic pay. Tips are clearly an important element, but they are not guaranteed or a right.

[SALAD MUNCHER]

Do not really care what "tip pool" it goes too, it still costs me 15%. Indeed, if I walk up to the pool bar and order a coke or a beer, what real service do I get for my 15%? No a lot, just the cruise company providing the basic service needed to sell the product. In addition, I really do not believe that the bar staff etc get all of this service charge, its far too much money for cruise lines to let go of it.

 

As I posted on an earlier thread (which was soon 'removed'?) if everyone on a ship carrying 2000 passengers spends $20 per day on beverages over a 7 day cruise, this would amount to $280,000 of beverages sold, add on the 15% service charge - hey presto in a week $42,000 profit made just on beverage service charge, to be split, as Cunard tell us in their brochures "just amongst the beverage staff" - I don't think so somehow........:rolleyes:

 

P.S. Over a year that amounts to $2,184,000!! Makes your eyes water!