CDC Conditional Sailing Certificate Standards

[travelhound]

On 10/31/2020 at 12:20 PM, keyboardjunkie said:

Much of what will occur in 2021 will be based on the outcome of the simulated and first sailings.  Should the CDC not have strong evidence (i.e. guests becoming ill) of 'failed' sailings, they can and should lift the Conditional Sail Order prior to November 1, 2021 (the date the order expires).  Other factors will include vaccine development and the opening of country borders.

This is a good point.  Things could improve significantly in just a few months 🙂

 

[A&L_Ont]

4 hours ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

I’ve been on permanent birth control after my second child. 😎

Fell on the sword, that is what I call it. 

[time4u2go]

7 hours ago, boatseller said:

Also, don't be surprised if the lines give contract preference to crew who have recovered from the virus. 

Why would they do this?

[boatseller]

8 hours ago, time4u2go said:

Why would they do this?

Because covid reinfections are essentially non-existent.  So recovered crew cannot become new cases.

[Biker19]

5 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Because covid reinfections are essentially non-existent.  So recovered crew cannot become new cases.

From the CDC CSO:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/management/technical-instructions-for-cruise-ships.html

 

 

 

• CDC will consider all positive RT-PCR results as new cases, unless laboratory documentation of a previous SARS-CoV-2 by RT-PCR test result within the previous 3 months is provided. While some positive results may be from people who have recovered from COVID-19 and are no longer infectious (i.e., persistent positives), CDC cannot adjudicate this without submission of previous laboratory results.

[boatseller]

3 minutes ago, Biker19 said:

From the CDC CSO:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/management/technical-instructions-for-cruise-ships.html

And?  All crew will be tested for active infection prior to joining.  Having recovered, they are essentially immune to reinfection and thus pose no risk to future sailings.

[Biker19]

27 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Having recovered, they are essentially immune to reinfection and thus pose no risk to future sailings.

That does not mean they could not test positive (false positive). The point is that in CDC's eyes, you most certainly could have a new case - whether they pose a threat to anyone is a different issue.

 

Again from CDC:

 

Quote

 

• To ensure the integrity of testing, persons with positive RT-PCR results must not be retested, and the original positive results must be reported. Subsequent negative results do not negate an initial positive result.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Biker19

[boatseller]

5 hours ago, Biker19 said:

That does not mean they could not test positive (false positive). The point is that in CDC's eyes, you most certainly could have a new case - whether they pose a threat to anyone is a different issue.

 

Again from CDC:

 

Again, and?  Anyone can test false positive.  That doesn't change the pertinent fact that immunity is the best barrier to spread.  If large numbers a crew are immune, vectors are cut significantly. 

[Biker19]

13 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Again, and?  

 You said:

Quote

So recovered crew cannot become new cases.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Biker19

[A&L_Ont]

38 minutes ago, boatseller said:

Again, and?  Anyone can test false positive.  That doesn't change the pertinent fact that immunity is the best barrier to spread.  If large numbers a crew are immune, vectors are cut significantly. 

RC will hire who ever and I doubt their first question will be, have you already been infected with Covid. 

[boatseller]

52 minutes ago, Biker19 said:

 You said:

Sorry, but I don't think you know how this works.  The PCR test is activated by the virus DNA which requires an active infection*.

 

Recovered crew will be immune to infection hence will not test positive even if exposed.**

 

So, the larger the number of recovered crew, the fewer vectors for transmission.  That's it.  None of the CDC gibberish changes that.

 

*This is not an antibody test.  I suppose one could theoretically test positive right after walking through a cloud of infections droplets.  Edge case not worth considering.

**Anyone can return a false positive.  Corner case not worth considering.

[boatseller]

34 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

RC will hire who ever and I doubt their first question will be, have you already been infected with Covid. 

It's more than reasonable to assume covid screening would including antibody testing and history (previous tests).

 

I did not say all crew must be recovered, just there are practical reasons to favor recovered crew.

[Ourusualbeach]

24 minutes ago, boatseller said:

It's more than reasonable to assume covid screening would including antibody testing and history (previous tests).

 

I did not say all crew must be recovered, just there are practical reasons to favor recovered crew.

I think initially they will have a hard enough time finding crew with up to date travel documents and live in countries where transportation is available that worrying about if they have previously had Covid won’t  even factor into it.  I believe that a crew member also posted that they are looking to being back the most experienced crew members that have experience on the class of ship they will be assigned to.

 

will they ask if crew have been exposed...probably however it will not be their primary criteria. 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Ourusualbeach

[Biker19]

1 hour ago, boatseller said:

None of the CDC gibberish changes that.

I don't think any of the cruise lines think any of the text in the CDC order is gibberish.

[A&L_Ont]

 

2 hours ago, Ourusualbeach said:

I think initially they will have a hard enough time finding crew with up to date travel documents and live in countries where transportation is available that worrying about if they have previously had Covid won’t  even factor into it.  

 

I see this statement as more accurate.

[time4u2go]

16 hours ago, boatseller said:

Because covid reinfections are essentially non-existent.  So recovered crew cannot become new cases.

Really?  Where have you seen this?

[boatseller]

On 11/4/2020 at 9:23 AM, Biker19 said:

I don't think any of the cruise lines think any of the text in the CDC order is gibberish.

It is.  If you're not familiar with 'compliance' it's mostly meaningless process and paperwork.  Sorry, that's just how it is.

 

They will 'comply' like any other entity but in practice it's irrelevant since after the first couple of months, no on knows what they're 'complying' with.  Find me a company that claims SOX compliance, then find me one employee, other than the Compliance Officer, who knows what the heck it even is.  There you go.

[travelhound]

On 11/2/2020 at 6:08 AM, Ourusualbeach said:

I would  make an educated guess based on past history and say rolling  cancellations as the current order is still subject to change. The only thing that I can see them doing is modifying itineraries fir ships that had 9 day itineraries or longer.  I think they will leave the 8 day ones alone because even if the 7 day rule is still in effect it’s easy enough just to shorten these cruises by a day, offer people a 1/8 refund plus sone OBC

Yup, we rescheduled our 9 day to a 7 day in March, just to be CDC compliant.  Maybe later in the year the CDC will lift some of these restrictions, as the vaccines are distributed.

[Biker19]

19 minutes ago, boatseller said:

If you're not familiar with 'compliance' it's mostly meaningless process and paperwork. 

Having to build a whole suite of medical rooms, testing capability and other things are not meaningless process. 

[chengkp75]

21 minutes ago, boatseller said:

It is.  If you're not familiar with 'compliance' it's mostly meaningless process and paperwork.  Sorry, that's just how it is.

 

They will 'comply' like any other entity but in practice it's irrelevant since after the first couple of months, no on knows what they're 'complying' with.  Find me a company that claims SOX compliance, then find me one employee, other than the Compliance Officer, who knows what the heck it even is.  There you go.

Took me a moment, since in my industry, "SOX compliance" deals with "sulfur oxides" and not "Sarbanes Oxley".  But, do SOX auditors actually go out and meet the front line troops who are generating or using the financial information, as the USPH/CDC inspectors, or USCG inspectors, actually do, or do they rely on the compliance officer to demonstrate the required controls via software?  Compliance is a whole different thing when you have inspectors and auditors checking on how the front line workers are actually performing their duties, not merely looking at reports of results. 

[boatseller]

2 minutes ago, Biker19 said:

Having to build a whole suite of medical rooms, testing capability and other things are not meaningless process. 

Yes, it is.  Similar to 'ICU Capacity' it's mostly paperwork and qualifications.

Testing is already being done in Europe so copy/paste and they're done.

 

Sorry, that's just how it works.  They bureaucrats aren't doing this for anyone safety, rules and influence is how they compete against each other.  Budget and headcount are the others big ones.  The TSA is big theatrical production which is rather trivial to bypass.

[suzyluvs2cruise]

Is a cruise of 7 days a 6 night cruise?  Current RCI cruises are marketed and sold using # of nights, not days. 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by suzyluvs2cruise

[boatseller]

2 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

or do they rely on the compliance officer to demonstrate the required controls via software? 

Mostly this, along with 'audits' done alongside financial audits, like what Arthur Andersen use to do.  

 

The point is, literally no one outside the auditors and officers can explain any meaningful provision or requirement of SOX so they're not complying with anything.  It's all backoffice/automation or 'features' of various apps.  It's just show for pols and bureaucrats.

 

Remember back in 2005(?) all those privacy barriers, distance markers, 20 page forms and what not for HIPAA?  Well, the requirements haven't changed, it's just no one cares enough to bother anymore.  My last provider registration was a check box on the web site.

 

You bring up a great point, real and meaningful rules require training, certification, drills.  Anything less is just for edification.

[Biker19]

10 hours ago, boatseller said:

Testing is already being done in Europe so copy/paste and they're done.

You would think if it was that easy, cheap and fast, we'd be sailing out of US ports by now.

[chengkp75]

19 hours ago, boatseller said:

You bring up a great point, real and meaningful rules require training, certification, drills.  Anything less is just for edification.

And this is the big difference between what the USPH/CDC and USCG have been doing for decades, and will continue to do for the covid response, and what financial auditors do.  On the ship, the front line use the requirements to complete their jobs on a daily basis, and therefore, the better companies and ships will instill this as a "culture", and it becomes an unconscious factor in the work day.  They are then tested on this knowledge of what is required to do their job when the inspectors show up, crew questioning and interviews are a large part of USPH and USCG inspections.